POSTGAME: Rd 15 vs Geelong

[dees189227 10,909]

Trac needs to learn how to deal with being tagged. 

Not just put the arms up in the air pleading for a free

[Hawny for Gawny 403]

3 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

Trac needs to learn how to deal with being tagged. 

Not just put the arms up in the air pleading for a free

Yes, but at the same time 33 touches, a goal, 10 clearances, 6 tackles. The tag wasn't impacting his ability to get the ball, him and the rest of the team need to work on not reverting to the "[censored] it Gawn's down there somewhere" strategy.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

5 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

Good to see some getting on board the G-train. G for Greg.
 

Stafford has been taking money under false pretences for years. Even when we won a flag we did it spite of our forward structure & methodology rather than because of it.

I understand Stafford has to work withing the parameters of the overall game plan but his area of the ground is dysfunctional. And while I’m not a Goodwin basher by any means, he and his merry men on the coaching panel need to realise that “contest & clearance” are all very well but that only gets you the ball. The name of the game is to maximise the opportunities that “contest & clearance” create and get the bloody ball through the big sticks.

The only appreciable shift from 2021 is that our tall forwards now clump together in the goal square rather than the left pocket.

A direct result of this clumping is that it draws in opposition defenders en masse and leaves them having to defend an area roughly the size of a picnic blanket. We are an opposition Defensive coach’s dream. It’s like Stafford has drawn up a plan and showed it to Chaplin for approval. “Ooh yes I like that” says Chappy. Forgets to tell him why though.

Supporters often wail about our “bombing into 50” but the reality is that often they have no other realistic option. And that’s on our forward structure and method. Further to this I’m often infuriated by Trac’s long mongrel punts into F50 from the midfield but I suspect this is under instruction. We are far more concerned with being out-marked inside F50 than we are with actually marking the ball ourselves. So we kick long floating mungs in the hope of bringing it to ground and causing a stoppage than we are with forwards marking the ball.

Too often :

We press up too high leaving the “over the top” play the only way of scoring

We lead as a pack to the same spot or worse again, congregate at the same spot

We fail to get any separation which gives our forwards a chance at a one on one contest

We fail to have a small front & square of contests – and when we do they’re usually too close to the contest resulting them being tackled immediately on taking possession

We fail to lead towards the ball carrier

We try to take the back shoulder position on opposing defenders which allows them to control the contest. Rule 101 for forwards has always been play in front.

So – to the players.

I’m of the view that BBB is pretty much done. Not his fault but his body has packed it in. Watching him at Casey is almost sad. So barring a miracle knee regeneration, I’ve dismissed him from 2023 calculations. Likewise TMac. History shows that he takes a long time to find consistent form post injury & he’s no spring chicken either.

JVR has a ton of upside but he desperately needs support from another key forward. Not a ruckman masquerading as a KPF. You can’t rely on pack marks in an area that looks like Myers front door at opening time on Boxing Day. It’s not sustainable. We will kill this kid if we don’t stop asking him to play like the second coming of Doug Wade. He needs to be able to rotate out to CHF and sometimes HFF to get some space and some easier possessions. He also needs to pick his moments and lead rather than being a one trick pony.

Petty looks like he’s our best CHB but also our best CHF. He is rarely out marked and can take them as well. He was showing signs of understanding when to work up the ground as a connector before being injured. I’d persevere with he & JVR in the key posts.

Max should not come inside 40 from goal unless it’s for a ruck contest. We become too Max-centric when he’s deep & continually dump it on his head. He takes the occasional goal square mark but not enough to justify him being there. He also draws in opposing rucks and defenders, adding further to the cluster……

ANB has his role but he’s heavily flawed. He needs to do the basics well and for most of this season, his skill level has been poor and this undoes all the good work he performs. While he’s important to the way we play, he’s regressing to his old ways of being a chain of possession breaker. His last quarter on KB was superb. We need more of that from him.

Spargo had a bright start to the season but has been abysmal post concussion. Casey beckons

Chandler is bereft of confidence. Takes an age to make a decision with ball in hand. He also gets lost a lot. I believe his role needs clarifying to assist his positioning and a decent forward coach should be able to do that. In form, there’s a place for him and he can be damaging

Kozzie……has been out of form but showed some glimpses tonight. He’s another who needs his role clarified IMO. He’s trying to be too many things. I also think he needs to be released into the midfield when he’s “cold” down forward. He seems to lift the more he is around the ball and he’s one of our best users up the ground.

Smith is not a KPF’s backside. Anyone who claims he is on the basis of that pre season game where he kicked 4 clearly has never watched the game, just looked at the stat sheet. Tom Stewart tore him to shreds tonight by exposing his lack of forward craft. That said, he does have some characteristics that could be more than useful if we dispense with the “Spargo” role. I’m one who believes we have too many small forwards. Smith could do worse than to study (can’t believe I’m typing this) Garry Rohan’s game tonight. Smith has some similar attributes that we could build into a role that makes him an aerial threat while making the most of his speed and tackling.

Fritta while not without his flaws which many are quick to jump on has been a shining light. How he’s managed to maintain the level of productivity he has in this forward line is remarkable. Love to know what he’d be capable of in a decent set up. For a bloke who could sleep in the shade of a crowbar, he’s asked to do a lot of the heavy lifting. We’ve used a bit more of his delivery inside 50 this season which has been encouraging. I’d like to see him in a 3 way rotation system between the gaol square & the flank with JVR & perhaps Smith.

All of our forward woes are fixable and fixable in season. But it’s a bit like having issues with gambling or drinking. You have to admit you have a problem before you can effectively face it and deal with it. We seem to still be in the denial stage.

Apologies for the long-winded rant but it’s been bubbling for a few years now. Believe it or not I reduced this by about a third before posting. Don’t know how the likes of Binman & DeeSpencer etc keep pumping out those long posts. This has done me in !

Thought it might be cathartic but I’m probably more hacked off than I was when I started typing !

Quality post. 

Agree on all but Fritsch. If he can't get involved offensively, he needs to do more than what he's doing off the ball. His defensive efforts are embarrassingly bad.. 

Interesting observations regarding where we're instructed to kick to... 

I still think if we had some more polish, ball use and composure, some a lot more of those kicks would be at the very least to a leading forwards advantage. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by JimmyGadson

[Gorgoroth 12,332]

Got home too late to post, 

Goodwin and co made this game harder to win at selection. Petty was so far from ready it was ridiculous. 
Spargo as sub… um what? 
 

To the game, it is easily summed up. When it was there to be won they played fast slick football and we fumbled. 
twice in the last (and heaps through out the game) we had the chance to shepherd the player with the ball in hand and instead wanted the two meter handball and we fumbled it. 
 

The pressure rose and we wilted like a flower in the desert. 
 

Took no note of how to nullify Stewart and how he wasn’t smashed after pushing Viney over when clearly injured shows exactly what sort of mentality the players have. Of that was any other player Viney would have been at them.

 

As things stand we are a 4th-8th team but unless we change quite a few things, we don’t look like a true contender.

[dee-tox 4,828]

So, some observations:

Hibberd played on Rohan (3 goals and 2 goal assists)? Got flogged but Demonland reckon he was one of our the best?!

Max took 1 mark for the game?

Angus went at 50 percent disposal efficiency. 

Langdon squibbed so many  contests tonight.

Petty earned one contested possession for the game 

Fumbles ANB keeps getting a game? Oh, I forgot he has an important role!

Kozzie improved his output from 6 possessions in the past 2 games to 10 possessions. Woohoo!

 

 

[dees189227 10,909]

Can our players stop with the shush celebrations. It backfired on Grundy and now Pickett last night. If we're 10 goals up with a minute to go then fine 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Heal You by Tyne-James Organ, 2.40 mark of the song.

[Demon Dynasty 15,739]

8 hours ago, SPC said:

There is no “learnings” from tonight. The game was a carbon copy of the game we lost in Geelong last year.

Scrag Max and he drops his head

Sweat on turnover as Melbourne fumble

Switch when going forward

That's two consecutive losses in the same manor to the Dockers and now the Cats (2022 loss vs 2023 loss).

The Cats also brought in a pretty ordinary line up.

Whereas aside from say Clarry, Bowey, Petty (who wasn't ready instead of Tomo...very poor call needed a run at Casey) & at least one of Macca or BBB, we probably had our best 22 on the park.

The old coaching mantra "don't get beaten by what you know" unfortunately doesn't seem to be holding true within our FD this season.

If you can't assess the weaknesses in the coaching staff, personnel and systems after the first loss (2022) and continue to bring more of the same the following season, then guess what.  You're gonna get more of the same results.

The oppo that's beaten us in 2022 doesn't need to adjust much either.  They just go on their merry way.

Brad Scott read the play book also.... a few notes exchanged?

Any team playing us (especially in the wet) just needs to review the Lions and this match then execute for the win.  Of course some won't be capable of doing so but the more disciplined / experienced and / or talented lists will all consider themselves a very good chance against us from here on.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,537]

8 hours ago, picket fence said:

Yep plus Goodwim agaim outcoached

VAN ROOYEN back to Casey

Chandler.... Ditto

kossy Ditto

NIibblr shocking

Max Gawns WORST GAME EVER

 

 

 

Van Rooyen was one of the only players smart enough to play to the conditions and you want him back to casey? For who? Give me a spell. Some favourites should be on the chopping block and be nervous about their positions after that insipid performance but they won't be because they know it'll be the same blokes getting dropped again.

[layzie 29,276]

7 hours ago, Bozo said:

The answer stares at us mockingly…Steph May at full forward. Time to develop his replacement in defence right now in the heat of the contest…Turner? Obviously the board and the coach need to be removed. None of this will happen but it really should if we are serious about not wasting the talent on hand. We are soft when it matters and our so called leadership lacks the courage to try new ideas. We must harness the all or nothing style, ruthless and efficient that was so apparent in 21. The team actually looks more balanced without Oliver so don’t expect things to improve with his return. Spargo is a competitive player badly out of form and lacking the room to move. One of spargo, kozie or chandler not all three. Angus Breysure ffs what is your role in the team? Petty should stay half forward. Max you are the captain…so [censored] play like that!! Or [censored] off.

[Jaded No More 58,643]

7 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

Jaded, I was at a function tonight in Sydney where our Pres attended and had a talk at half time. She made an interesting comment about Petty and Tomlinson. A pretty brutal one actually. She stated that the club really rate Petty playing in defence. He was only playing forward because there was no one else. Also said that Petty will be playing in defence in the finals. Tomlinson won’t be playing in September. 
I also had no idea Kate was so tall! 

Assuming this is the case, who is the magical unicorn that we found who can now play the tall forward role we had set out for Petty to fill?

I agree that in principle Petty is better than Tomlinson. He’s also much younger. I have no issues if we play him back there permanently again. 
I have serious issues if we think Joel Smith is the tall forward answer. He and JVR cannot carry our scoring in September and without another big body it becomes too easy to defend Fritta and robs our smalls from crumbing opportunities.

Two weeks in a row we let the opposition’s gun intercept defender get their hands on the footy. Last game it was ok because it was dry and we dominated around the ground. This week it was a disaster because it was wet and we couldn’t hit a target to save ourselves. 

[leave it to deever 16,007]

7 hours ago, Demonsone said:

Fwd line is a mess ..  expecting a 20yo Jvr & smith to kick a winning score really

And Petty who hasn't played for 6 weeks. 

[leave it to deever 16,007]

2 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Assuming this is the case, who is the magical unicorn that we found who can now play the tall forward role we had set out for Petty to fill?

I agree that in principle Petty is better than Tomlinson. He’s also much younger. I have no issues if we play him back there permanently again. 
I have serious issues if we think Joel Smith is the tall forward answer. He and JVR cannot carry our scoring in September and without another big body it becomes too easy to defend Fritta and robs our smalls from crumbing opportunities.

Two weeks in a row we let the opposition’s gun intercept defender get their hands on the footy. Last game it was ok because it was dry and we dominated around the ground. This week it was a disaster because it was wet and we couldn’t hit a target to save ourselves. 

Jvr looked dwarfed by his opponent in width and height.

 

 

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,042]

7 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

Jaded, I was at a function tonight in Sydney where our Pres attended and had a talk at half time. She made an interesting comment about Petty and Tomlinson. A pretty brutal one actually. She stated that the club really rate Petty playing in defence. He was only playing forward because there was no one else. Also said that Petty will be playing in defence in the finals. Tomlinson won’t be playing in September. 
I also had no idea Kate was so tall! 

Is she a chance at CHF next week? No Phil Davis, so an opportunity to blood. 

[titan_uranus 22,634]

58 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

The major turning point in the match was the Fritsch chase down tackle that was paid as a sling/dangerous tackle. We looked to be away at goal Ann’s they kick one off the back of that free and the riot started. I haven’t had a second look at it, but first glance said it was a good tackle. 
 

I don’t think this would have made the difference but I agree it felt wrong. 

I felt we got a couple of lucky HTB calls early but then throughout the game some critical umpiring decisions went against us:

1. The lack of HTB on Kolodjashnij 30m out from our goal at the start of the 3rd (blatant HTB, horrendously missed)

2. Not calling Chandler’s advantage back (he took the kick a microsecond after the whistle, that gets called back 90% of the time)

3. The “throw” paid against Viney (the umpire had to have guessed, he was blindsided)

4. The lack of HTB on Rohan in the middle of the ground when Petty wrapped him up (another blatant HTB not paid, can’t recall if they scored from that chain though)

[leave it to deever 16,007]

Not sure we can continue to carry Anb, Chandler, Kozzie and spargo all at once anymore.

 

 

[beelzebub 22,266]

9 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Geez that was disappointing .

We are better than that.

Evidently not.

Whose idea to bring in Petty ? Not up to match speed . A long wet night. Brilliant decision.  Tommo should be ropable. 

Can we find some forwards whos middle name ISNT yip !!

We stuffed up nearly every wet game this year. Well done Box ;) 

We aren't the team some think we are and definitely not the team we need to be.

Get cracking Simon, fix your mess.

[leave it to deever 16,007]

4 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I don’t think this would have made the difference but I agree it felt wrong. 

I felt we got a couple of lucky HTB calls early but then throughout the game some critical umpiring decisions went against us:

1. The lack of HTB on Kolodjashnij 30m out from our goal at the start of the 3rd (blatant HTB, horrendously missed)

2. Not calling Chandler’s advantage back (he took the kick a microsecond after the whistle, that gets called back 90% of the time)

3. The “throw” paid against Viney (the umpire had to have guessed, he was blindsided)

4. The lack of HTB on Rohan in the middle of the ground when Petty wrapped him up (another blatant HTB not paid, can’t recall if they scored from that chain though)

It's the inconsistency that gets me. Umps were red hot on htb at the start then just gave up on it.

[OhMyDees 1,333]

5. Holding the man not paid for Sparrow in-front of goal also a howler. 

[640MD 2,897]

Jeelong played their ground, once they got into the open and running, so much better than us.  In the last. 
melb just seemed to watch.

up till then we were in with a show.

outcoached in the last quarter 

they were playing for their season we were just playing 

[leave it to deever 16,007]

34 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

So, some observations:

Hibberd played on Rohan (3 goals and 2 goal assists)? Got flogged but Demonland reckon he was one of our the best?!

Max took 1 mark for the game?

Angus went at 50 percent disposal efficiency. 

Langdon squibbed so many  contests tonight.

Petty earned one contested possession for the game 

Fumbles ANB keeps getting a game? Oh, I forgot he has an important role!

Kozzie improved his output from 6 possessions in the past 2 games to 10 possessions. Woohoo!

 

 

Hibbo looked alright to me( but 3 goals by Rowan on a wet night isnt great) . Some accurate observations after that.

[layzie 29,276]

6 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

Good to see some getting on board the G-train. G for Greg.
 

Stafford has been taking money under false pretences for years. Even when we won a flag we did it spite of our forward structure & methodology rather than because of it.

I understand Stafford has to work withing the parameters of the overall game plan but his area of the ground is dysfunctional. And while I’m not a Goodwin basher by any means, he and his merry men on the coaching panel need to realise that “contest & clearance” are all very well but that only gets you the ball. The name of the game is to maximise the opportunities that “contest & clearance” create and get the bloody ball through the big sticks.

The only appreciable shift from 2021 is that our tall forwards now clump together in the goal square rather than the left pocket.

A direct result of this clumping is that it draws in opposition defenders en masse and leaves them having to defend an area roughly the size of a picnic blanket. We are an opposition Defensive coach’s dream. It’s like Stafford has drawn up a plan and showed it to Chaplin for approval. “Ooh yes I like that” says Chappy. Forgets to tell him why though.

Supporters often wail about our “bombing into 50” but the reality is that often they have no other realistic option. And that’s on our forward structure and method. Further to this I’m often infuriated by Trac’s long mongrel punts into F50 from the midfield but I suspect this is under instruction. We are far more concerned with being out-marked inside F50 than we are with actually marking the ball ourselves. So we kick long floating mungs in the hope of bringing it to ground and causing a stoppage than we are with forwards marking the ball.

Too often :

We press up too high leaving the “over the top” play the only way of scoring

We lead as a pack to the same spot or worse again, congregate at the same spot

We fail to get any separation which gives our forwards a chance at a one on one contest

We fail to have a small front & square of contests – and when we do they’re usually too close to the contest resulting them being tackled immediately on taking possession

We fail to lead towards the ball carrier

We try to take the back shoulder position on opposing defenders which allows them to control the contest. Rule 101 for forwards has always been play in front.

So – to the players.

I’m of the view that BBB is pretty much done. Not his fault but his body has packed it in. Watching him at Casey is almost sad. So barring a miracle knee regeneration, I’ve dismissed him from 2023 calculations. Likewise TMac. History shows that he takes a long time to find consistent form post injury & he’s no spring chicken either.

JVR has a ton of upside but he desperately needs support from another key forward. Not a ruckman masquerading as a KPF. You can’t rely on pack marks in an area that looks like Myers front door at opening time on Boxing Day. It’s not sustainable. We will kill this kid if we don’t stop asking him to play like the second coming of Doug Wade. He needs to be able to rotate out to CHF and sometimes HFF to get some space and some easier possessions. He also needs to pick his moments and lead rather than being a one trick pony.

Petty looks like he’s our best CHB but also our best CHF. He is rarely out marked and can take them as well. He was showing signs of understanding when to work up the ground as a connector before being injured. I’d persevere with he & JVR in the key posts.

Max should not come inside 40 from goal unless it’s for a ruck contest. We become too Max-centric when he’s deep & continually dump it on his head. He takes the occasional goal square mark but not enough to justify him being there. He also draws in opposing rucks and defenders, adding further to the cluster……

ANB has his role but he’s heavily flawed. He needs to do the basics well and for most of this season, his skill level has been poor and this undoes all the good work he performs. While he’s important to the way we play, he’s regressing to his old ways of being a chain of possession breaker. His last quarter on KB was superb. We need more of that from him.

Spargo had a bright start to the season but has been abysmal post concussion. Casey beckons

Chandler is bereft of confidence. Takes an age to make a decision with ball in hand. He also gets lost a lot. I believe his role needs clarifying to assist his positioning and a decent forward coach should be able to do that. In form, there’s a place for him and he can be damaging

Kozzie……has been out of form but showed some glimpses tonight. He’s another who needs his role clarified IMO. He’s trying to be too many things. I also think he needs to be released into the midfield when he’s “cold” down forward. He seems to lift the more he is around the ball and he’s one of our best users up the ground.

Smith is not a KPF’s backside. Anyone who claims he is on the basis of that pre season game where he kicked 4 clearly has never watched the game, just looked at the stat sheet. Tom Stewart tore him to shreds tonight by exposing his lack of forward craft. That said, he does have some characteristics that could be more than useful if we dispense with the “Spargo” role. I’m one who believes we have too many small forwards. Smith could do worse than to study (can’t believe I’m typing this) Garry Rohan’s game tonight. Smith has some similar attributes that we could build into a role that makes him an aerial threat while making the most of his speed and tackling.

Fritta while not without his flaws which many are quick to jump on has been a shining light. How he’s managed to maintain the level of productivity he has in this forward line is remarkable. Love to know what he’d be capable of in a decent set up. For a bloke who could sleep in the shade of a crowbar, he’s asked to do a lot of the heavy lifting. We’ve used a bit more of his delivery inside 50 this season which has been encouraging. I’d like to see him in a 3 way rotation system between the gaol square & the flank with JVR & perhaps Smith.

All of our forward woes are fixable and fixable in season. But it’s a bit like having issues with gambling or drinking. You have to admit you have a problem before you can effectively face it and deal with it. We seem to still be in the denial stage.

Apologies for the long-winded rant but it’s been bubbling for a few years now. Believe it or not I reduced this by about a third before posting. Don’t know how the likes of Binman & DeeSpencer etc keep pumping out those long posts. This has done me in !

Thought it might be cathartic but I’m probably more hacked off than I was when I started typing !

Very good post.

I know Smith isn't a KPF's backside but there's just no other option and at least he sort of reads the ball in flight well. Did nothing after HT though 

[640MD 2,897]

1 minute ago, layzie said:

Very good post.

I know Smith isn't a KPF's backside but there's just no other option and at least he sort of reads the ball in flight well. Did nothing after HT though 

No one really played well after half time . 
you could name quite a few. I did think Hunter, lever and Grundy did ok

but their bigger guys Biclav, Rohan, and Hawkins on the wet night ran to the right spots.   They just knew where the ball was going.

[beelzebub 22,266]

43 minutes ago, Gorgoroth said:

Got home too late to post, 

Goodwin and co made this game harder to win at selection. Petty was so far from ready it was ridiculous. 
Spargo as sub… um what? 
 

To the game, it is easily summed up. When it was there to be won they played fast slick football and we fumbled. 
twice in the last (and heaps through out the game) we had the chance to shepherd the player with the ball in hand and instead wanted the two meter handball and we fumbled it. 
 

The pressure rose and we wilted like a flower in the desert. 
 

Took no note of how to nullify Stewart and how he wasn’t smashed after pushing Viney over when clearly injured shows exactly what sort of mentality the players have. Of that was any other player Viney would have been at them.

 

As things stand we are a 4th-8th team but unless we change quite a few things, we don’t look like a true contender.

Excellent post.

Yes...that shove...  Dees should be ashamed... weak as...  and mongrel teams know it. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,739]

5 hours ago, GOLORDIE said:

The fact that we are resting our ruckmen in the F50 shows the coach doesn't believe our forwards have the necessary ability to take a mark. What puzzles me is they almost never make a lead for a kicker to aim at. They just wait, with the opposition and all our other forwards for the kicker to dump it on their heads. 

We've been doing this for years under Stafford.

Even worse, if you're talls are going to sit around and not lead enough, at least have them positioned so there's some separation. 

At least one tall should be playing true CHF designated area!  Not 20 to 25 meters out just in front of the FF.

Kozzy, Chandler, ANB or Harmes sometimes played at CHF ..... fcs what is Stafford/Goodwin thinking here!?

Mind boggling stuff this season and the last kick inside 50 still a dog's breakfast at round 15!