POSTGAME: Rd 17 vs Geelong

[Vipercrunch 2,818]

25 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate, though you really haven't said anything of substance. You're admitting your perception of where we are at is informed by

-Loading (speculation, unconfirmed)

-Trust in the FD 

If that's all it takes to convince yourself that we'll be ok then I'm glad for you. 

I think attributing losses to loading is both extremely disrespectful to the opposition (as if to say if we were fully fit, winning is a fait accompli) and extremely complacent. Especially in the face of clear statistical indicators showing where we're getting well beaten and comments from Scott post game explaining how he dismantled our gameplan. It's a lazy excuse that papers over any meaningful analysis or explanation, because fitness is obviously a common element that underpins the entire sport. 

As for trust in the FD - I have some but not enough to blindly ignore what my eyes and ears are telling me. Just as Goodwin took us to a flag he also landed us in 17th. To assume he will always get it right is pretty ridiculous. Huge recency bias too. 

I'm not bothered by the loss honestly - it's the manner of the losses that concern me and they bear very little resemblance to last year regardless of what you say. 

As I said, no reason we can't turn it around and I'll be thrilled if it happens - but in a post game thread full of good analysis and people searching for answers, chalking it up to loading and last year's profile is lazy & simplistic. 

This isn't negative at all, it's observational. Some very sensitive folks on here. 

Not bothered by the loss but the manner of the losses concern you??? Seriously try and make some sense. 

[WalkingCivilWar 34,805]

3 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

@von, on a completely unrelated note. Whenever I see your name, I can’t help but think of the first album Von by Sigur Ros and this ripping song.

 

 

2 hours ago, von said:

I always liked takk the most. They are fantastic

Ágætis byrjun for mine. 

[DemonWA 3,630]

45 minutes ago, binman said:

Fair dinkum, that is Donald Trump level projection right there.

Not at all. I was responding to a post that wanted to make the proposition that we deliberately didn't change any of our method during the match, as if it's some master plan to save our tricks for the finals. Ie. We lost last night almost by choice. I disagree and I made a general comment that that sort of 'make the facts suit the logic' reverse engineered theory is similar to talking about training loads when we loose. I wasn't asking to debate loading theory. You tell me to put up or shut up.  I think it's more than reasonable to say you're triggered - judging by your essays on the loading thread and the discussion on the podcast I get the impression that hanging onto the loading theory helps you to sleep at night. all power to you

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,606]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

I wonder if Goodwin and Co felt it had the same meaning?

If Goodwin and Co were supremely confident we’d go 5-1 to finish the season (despite a loss last night) and hence a certainty to finish top 2, then the answer to your question is no.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Bring-Back-Powell

[Engorged Onion 9,570]

6 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

loading theory

For those (not necessarily you @DemonWA) that are dubious about loading somehow being an insignificant factor in performance, and label it as a theory.

I'd argue it's about as theoretical as Charles Darwin's 'Theory' of Evolution...

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,606]

1 hour ago, von said:

Do you think that was the case watching the game?

I can’t be sure, but the only noticeable tactic we employed compared to pre the Brisbane win was the use of one less key forward. There didn’t seem to be too much distance from the status quo.

The narrow wings probably didn’t help our structures but that was largely out of our control.

[fr_ap 2,244]

36 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

Not bothered by the loss but the manner of the losses concern you??? Seriously try and make some sense. 

Not a difficult concept mate.. I accept we will lose some games especially away from home against a very good team. That doesn't concern me. Especially if we lose in a close game that could have gone either way. 

What does bother me is when we lose comprehensively in every facet of the game as we did. I.e. the manner of the loss. Especially when it begins to occur over a number of weeks in semi-familiar patterns. 

I'm over the back and forth - you basically made my point for me admitting you're projecting a return to form on blind hope, past performance and trust in the FD.

I think that's nonsense but as I said, if you find comfort in it then great. 

[Vipercrunch 2,818]

Just now, fr_ap said:

Not a difficult concept mate.. I accept we will lose some games especially away from home against a very good team. That doesn't concern me. Especially if we lose in a close game that could have gone either way. 

What does bother me is when we lose comprehensively in every facet of the game as we did. I.e. the manner of the loss. Especially when it begins to occur over a number of weeks in semi-familiar patterns. 

I'm over the back and forth - you basically made my point for me admitting you're projecting a return to form on blind hope, past performance and trust in the FD.

I think that's nonsense but as I said, if you find comfort in it then great. 

Stop sitting on the fence. Did last nights loss concern you or not?

[DemonWA 3,630]

17 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

For those (not necessarily you @DemonWA) that are dubious about loading somehow being an insignificant factor in performance, and label it as a theory.

I'd argue it's about as theoretical as Charles Darwin's 'Theory' of Evolution...

 

My issue is that discussion about loading (which happens) trivialises far more obvious issues with our game this year. Additionally I believe people are taking the results and using loading as a convenient way to build the narrative that our losses are all part of the grand plan. As I say, if that helps people sleep at night, all power to you. 

No doubt it has some effect, but we've lost to other top 4 contenders who would also be loading, so at what point do you just conceed the lads aren't playing the best footy and are perhaps a touch complacent? 

[defuture15 857]

It concerned me.

Just watched Casey slog out a win.

We have a gem in JVR!

[fr_ap 2,244]

1 minute ago, Vipercrunch said:

Stop sitting on the fence. Did last nights loss concern you or not?

We're equal first and still in control of our destiny, so no. We could afford to lose. 

It's the way we lost (comprehensively, in the contest, bad defensively) that concerned me. 

[fr_ap 2,244]

7 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

My issue is that discussion about loading (which happens) trivialises far more obvious issues with our game this year. Additionally I believe people are taking the results and using loading as a convenient way to build the narrative that our losses are all part of the grand plan. As I say, if that helps people sleep at night, all power to you. 

No doubt it has some effect, but we've lost to other top 4 contenders who would also be loading, so at what point do you just conceed the lads aren't playing the best footy and are perhaps a touch complacent? 

Couldn't have said it any better

Teams win flags a million different ways...just because we won it last year with a dip in the middle of the season doesn't mean that's the only way to do it, or that we are doing the same thing again, or that it was even intentional the first time

Edited July 8, 2022 by fr_ap

[Vipercrunch 2,818]

2 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

My issue is that discussion about loading (which happens) trivialises far more obvious issues with our game this year. Additionally I believe people are taking the results and using loading as a convenient way to build the narrative that our losses are all part of the grand plan. As I say, if that helps people sleep at night, all power to you. 

No doubt it has some effect, but we've lost to other top 4 contenders who would also be loading, so at what point do you just conceed the lads aren't playing the best footy and are perhaps a touch complacent? 

Neither side of the loading debate is going to concede anything until the season is over, (and even then many won’t).
 

And why do you care about what “narrative” is being created?  Do you think the opinions shared on a forum such as this affects what happens in the field?

[DemonWA 3,630]

18 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

Neither side of the loading debate is going to concede anything until the season is over, (and even then many won’t).
 

And why do you care about what “narrative” is being created?  Do you think the opinions shared on a forum such as this affects what happens in the field?

Not at all, and I don't truly 'care' about the narrative but I worry that it fuels the group think that we'll win the flag again, almost as a formality. Clearly this isn't the case. 

[Travy14 1,607]

Not a great game from us, Geel looked like they were really grabbing and bumping and annoying our mids at stoppages and we didn't handle it.

We also took the tackler on way to often, and maybe that was because we were to short up fwd and didn't have clear targets.

Gawn and Jackson will be better for the run, Gawn didn't take any intercept marks which is not usual for him and he just looked like he lacked the extra energy to get to that kick behind the play.  it will come back!

[sue 8,594]

I don't buy the argument that says Geelong will fail in finals because they don't have the advantage of their narrow ground.  Sure it is a big advantage in getting them to the finals (ridiculous for a professional sport to allow such a variation in playing area), but they do get to 'practice' every second week on normal grounds.  Surely that is enough.

[spirit of norm smith 13,577]

 

Melbourne coach Simon Goodwin expected an audit of his AFL side in the heavyweight clash against Geelong - and he got one.

But what he didn't expect at GMHBA Stadium on Thursday night was his vaunted midfield unit to get so well beaten around the ball.

The Cats dominated clearances (54-36) and inside-50s (66-46), and had 13 more scoring shots, in a comprehensive 28-point win that dislodged the reigning premiers from the top of the ladder.

•  audit 1. Clearances. We will clearly smashed by the Cats and they had outside runners. Dees simply over used the footy in close and handballed to another player under more pressure - circa 2019 and prior
• audit 2. Marks inside 50. It’s a key indicator to forward line delivery.  We bombed the ball in or were too slow. It’s the connection forward of Centre that again needs fixing 
• audit 3.  Dumb footy. Harmesy fending off 3 times for the same result.  That’s holding the ball. Madness. Pickett again smashing a player after disposal.  Happening too often giving away free kicks.  Head high tackles.  Surely it’s waste high tackles and pin the arms.  

 

[The heart beats true 16,643]

I think we were happy for them to show us what they have. They spoiled our ruckman hard and and away from the contest consistently, and the set up around stoppage a certain way - which is awesome to know in July. We didn’t change much until the last quarter when we shifted the forward line about the place and scored differently. We know what they want to do now. I’m still convinced that we aren’t changing much up in game because we don’t need to.

We are in a learning phase about what others want to do against us. We still have the best midfield and defence in the competition. I think we are keeping our powder dry.

[sue 8,594]

39 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

...

 I think we are keeping our powder dry.

I'd love to believe that. But unfortunately to finish in the top 4, let alone top 2, we can't afford to lose any games and even if Port and the Dogs throw in the towel, we have a tough draw.

[Deecisive 1,669]

disappointing as it was, it was a loss that hopefully will make geelong feel like have it over us, so that next time we play them at the
MCG with a melbourne crowd and hopefully better umpires and us not having so many players contributing that we beat the crap out of them on the scoreboard.  We need to make changes cannot drop all of the players that were poor, as there were just too many, but we have to drop enough and bring in players who have earned the right to wear the demons jumper and potentially play in finals to be given that chance. that should put all on notice that if you dont turn up now, you will not be there at finals time or possibly even next year.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,786]

16 hours ago, DemonWA said:

I don't see a substantial difference between using it as a sole excuse and using it as the predominant excuse. It's semantics. 

Try not to get so triggered. 

Performance and results are two different things. Loading can partly explain the performance (lethargic, sloppy etc) you're the one wringing your hands over the result

[layzie 30,247]

18 hours ago, DemonWA said:

Lol. This is up there with the people who use loading as an excuse for every loss and every game that we're not at our best. 

Just accept that the Cats will be in the mix again this year and that were not a sure thing to go back to back. The end

 

The question is then: Why didn't we change much?

It's all spitballing from us but it's still more plausible than calling the coaches nitwits like others do.

Edited July 9, 2022 by layzie

[DemonWA 3,630]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Performance and results are two different things. Loading can partly explain the performance (lethargic, sloppy etc) you're the one wringing your hands over the result

If you take the time to see my posts after the game I say we were beaten by the better team on the night. Hardly hand wringing. 

I'll cut you some slack for the Electric Wizard avatar

[DemonWA 3,630]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

The question is then: Why didn't we change much?

It's all spitballing from us but it's still more plausible than calling the coaches nitwits like others do.

Perhaps it's as simple as that the coaches back our method to win. Until half way through the last quarter the approach had some merit too. 

[Mr Steve 3,820]

Just re-watched Thursday night game. Geelong will not beat us again this year.