POSTGAME: Rd 12 vs Sydney

[Willmoy1947 4,088]

20 minutes ago, Demonstone said:

Why not?  Just this century alone, Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond have had "dynasties".

The suggestion that the umpires are deliberately influencing matches by favouring our opponents and are doing so at the direction of the corrupt AFL is just self-pitying, pathetic nonsense.

We're not them pal..

[Demonstone 22,525]

So it's just poor old Melbourne that's being picked on, is it? 

Boo hoo.  The AFL doesn't like us or want us to succeed.

Like most conspiracy theories, yours is illogical and risible.

[Roost it far 8,276]

4 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Turning point was sparrow’s missed handball to Oliver. Hit that and Oliver was running inside 50 and goaling 

Or Fritsch missing the lot from 35

or any number of times we bombed long rather than lowering the eyes inside 50

or being out hustled time and again

or Levers dropped mark

or several iffy umpiring decisions

Yes Sparrow’s was a shocker but he wasn’t alone.

consider how poorly we played and the Swans still had to play out of their skins to beat us. We’ll still win the Premiership 

[BDA 22,755]

37 minutes ago, willmoy said:

Fair enough, struggle with repetition sometimes. The thing is though as soon as the media get a sniff of us talking about Dynasty that is something the AFL don't want a bar of .Things like how are they going to be beaten? Ah I know let's brink them back to earth with a few crucial free kick decisions at a few critical times.Losses start, enthusiasm drops.  What I do is look at other games and say why was such and such paid and not paid in that game etc etc.

.

The umps are incompetent. 

but not corrupt

[Clintosaurus 7,848]

7 minutes ago, BDA said:

The umps are incompetent. 

but not corrupt

For some teams it borders on corruption. Dogs, Carlton this year, Eagles in Perth. 

They must be poorly coached or told to watch for certain things.

[praha 11,240]

Keep reading about "loading". What does this mean? Are they increasing training loads? What would be the purpose of this?

[titan_uranus 25,020]

2 hours ago, praha said:

The Melbourne FC Twitter account used to livetweet the press conference but haven't this year. Can someone summarise key points?

I thought I did OK with my almost-live-post attempt!

17 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Key takeaways (at least IMO) from Goodwin's presser:

1. When asked about how we lost it in the fourth quarter, he immediately focused instead on how we dominated the third quarter everywhere except on the scoreboard
2. When asked about our forward line, accepted we'll look at personnel but also method (I mean, that's obvious to all of us, but a reminder that swapping B Brown for Weid isn't going to make us score if we keep delivering it as poorly as we did tonight)
3. Directly asked if Ben Brown was fit, and said yes
4. They kicked 8 goals from turnovers, to our 0
5. Was asked about us being complacent, and denied it
6. Was asked why M Brown got the spot over Weid: "he's playing better footy". Weid has to play "a big man's role". Was actually kinda brutal about this, I thought
7. Petty had a hit to his shin, after the knee last week and then the AC joint tonight

Goodwin's comments about Weideman really stood out to me, more than anything. Incredibly blunt.

[Pates 9,660]

5 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

What does Jake Lever offer the side at present? Bloke is so far off his form of last year it isn’t funny. Not on his pat malone 

The question you’ve asked is really unfair as he still offers plenty as a leader in the back line and still gets back into good positions. But yea he along with many of his comrades are way out of form. I think focusing on the defence isn’t the right place to start, we’re getting beaten in the middle and this isn’t a new phenomenon. Against some of the poorest teams in the competition our midfield has been matched, and it’s been only through our ultimate class and the fact the other teams weren’t able to sustain it that we have got the wins. 

It’s no surprise that coming up against two of the better teams in the competition at midfield combativeness that our mids have looked second rate at times.

I hate to say it but it’s looking a bit similar to 2020 where a few players are getting selfish. Way too often they are taking the wrong option, case in point was in the last quarter with us in front we were streaming down the centre and instead of looking for the outside runner (in Harmes) who had worked hard to make ground and be an option, but was ignored because the player kicking it (can’t remember who) rushed and didn’t do our old team thing of looking around first. 

QB is going to be massive for our season. Win and we can reload and get things back on track. Lose and we’re in the middle of the pack and genuine questions are asked. 

[DubDee 25,867]

2 hours ago, layzie said:

This loading and de-loading crap is being bandied around literally everywhere right now. 

I hear you, I told my boss my recent poor performance at work was due to 'loading' and he would soon see the benefits.

Suffice to say I am now being performance managed

[von 1,567]

Our forward issues stem from over all work rate. Particularly through the middle. our  defensive issues stem from work rate. Particularly through the middle. our lack of execution of skills stems from fitness. It was clear at the ground the past fortnight we were playing with heavy legs. We are not only going through some turbulence on the injury front we are probably going through a spike in training load. Banged up and tired. It only takes a few percent drop off in energy to look sluggish. These problems will start to resolve as we start to come back into fitness. We rely on everyone running on top of the ground to maintain structures and create the imposing defensive setup we have. The season is long. Last year I thought we were done after the gws game. We look exactly the same right now. 

[SPC 3,549]

I think we have tweaked some things. Trac looks too offensive for me, he runs forward and has ANB cover his man. Last year, he was in D50 more helping out. His work around the ground is critical. I think we need to go back to basics a bit. Focus on winning contests, one on one and spread. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

3 hours ago, bing181 said:

Is he? He's "famous" for wanting to build resilience by having players train at a high level all year round and push through niggles rather than having sessions off or shorter ... but loading?

I don't believe "loading", whatever that is in the context of AFL, has anything to do with what's going on at the moment.

Yes, it's been talked about a lot in AFL circles since his Port days.

The resilience piece was something he came around to, it wasn't always his philosophy, but that was definitely something he brought to us as well.

You can choose to believe whatever you wish, I can't factually tell you it's 100% happening, but I'm basing my opinion on evidence and not just making it up.

[Clintosaurus 7,848]

Could the end of season trip have been paid for from the last 2 weeks? 😝

[KLV 1,765]

4 hours ago, Bozo said:

I have put a new curse on this club.  We didn't receive our scarves this year despite being told they were 'in the mail'. When I rang to query some months later was told condescendingly it was 'my fault' for not ticking a box...what a load of garbage. My family have contributed financially to the various dysfunctional versions of 'leadership' offered up by this club over the past 20 years, consistently buying memberships that we could not really afford. We seldom attended games but wanted to help out.

It's cheap, unprofessional and disorganized of the club to act with such arrogance and contempt. I am unsurprised that performance is dropping if this is how the show is now run. Everything counts when it comes to winning and even then you need to get lucky. If you can't respect your supporters, sharing in the success and honouring our commitment you deserve to lose!

This team are now hunted, predictable and slow. 

Darren Burgess has been seriously underrated for the contribution to last years victory.

Of course there is no such thing as a curse. There doesn't need to be! Unacceptable Melbourne.

While I don’t agree with much of your post, we also have had the exact same experience with the scarves. Membership services have never been good 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Won contested possessions by 14....  150 v 136

Won uncontested by a massive 35 .... 198 v 163

Won effective disposals by 23

Matched them in center clearances with 10 each but just lost the stoppage clearances by 3.

However we had 10 more clangers.

Sydney had 13 more score involvements which might suggest they shared the ball around better?

Contested marks weren't that diff with the Swans only ahead by 3 here.  Turnovers and intercepts both exactly the same.  We had one more goal assist and meters gained pretty much level.

So aside from 10 more clangers (sloppy work?) where did it go wrong? 

From what i witnessed Sydney appeared to bring more pressure throughout the match.  Especially frontal pressure, backing the their fellow player to come up and support them from behind.  Tackles seem to back this up with the Swans 75 to Demons 53.  22 more tackles throughout the match is a fair chunk.  18 more marks as well meant they controlled the game and switched quite effectively with patience, waiting for the weakness / opportunity to present in our fold back zone.

Speaking of the zone, i reckon we fold back way too far and give the opponent far too much space in our forward half to flick the ball around the back and eventually hit free targets up the field.

While i'm not expecting supermen capable of closing gaps 100% of time and staying within a few meters of their man for the entire match, i reckon we are way too lax the other way here for too long and give up too much ground too soon.  This feeds into the opp racking up a stack of possessions and brings their player's into the match, building confidence with every minute that goes by, while we remain without the ball....effectively going cold.  By gaining easy ground quite quickly the opp is also left with stacks of energy to launch their attacks and often from very dangerous positions on the field.  Having May present probably masks this fold back (lax) strategy somewhat with his impact making that much difference.

Sydney having 23 scoring shots to 16 indicates they got way too much ball forward of center and connected with their forwards far more often for shots at goal.

We also appeared to over use the handball.  Sydney having 18 more kicks and a massive 56 fewer handballs.  Going more direct &  taking the game on?  Whereas we flipped the ball around by hand alot more inviting more pressure and hence the 10 extra clangers?  Or do we just have a few too many players out of form at the moment regardless?

Oh silly me....nearly forgot about our amazing forward connection/cohesion and our incredible form in front of goal 😁

Edited June 5, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[Macca 16,970]

We are not playing well but nor did we play very well in a 9 game stretch last season where we lost 4 games, drew another and barely got past Essendon in a close one in that 9 game time period.  I suppose a lot of us are hoping we are into the 'loading' phase

Yet we took all before us in the lead up to the finals last season and then played fabulous football during the finals (where our forward line clicked into gear)

Much has been discussed about the make-up of our forward line looking ahead but the main thing is the forward line just has to play better as a unit and in terms of individual output

T-Mac not being available means that we are playing 2 KPF's who are either not good enough or out of form ... and that's 1 player of that standard too many (especially in a team that is on top of the ladder) The 3 players in question of course are Ben Brown, Mitch Brown & Weideman

Thought could be given to going with only 1 of the 3 plus Gawn or Jackson as permanent forwards (along with Fritsch) and maybe play another mid-sized player like Harmes as a forward.  Or could Jordon play forward?  He's close on 6'2" in the old language 

For team purposes Brayshaw is better placed on a wing so Rivers could slot back in on the HBF

Ben Brown (if preferred out of the 3 aforementioned) could be moved up to CHF to get him into the play (for a time) ... after that, rotate them around where the 4 marking forwards all get their chance deep forward (or out into the play)

C      Brayshaw    Petracca    Langdon

HF    Kozzie        Ben Brown    Jordon

FF     Fritsch     Gawn/Jackson  Spargo

Int     Neal-Bullen (rotating into the forward line) Bedford is a chance for a similar role

Edited June 5, 2022 by Macca

[Go the Biff 3,423]

2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Yes, it's been talked about a lot in AFL circles since his Port days.

The resilience piece was something he came around to, it wasn't always his philosophy, but that was definitely something he brought to us as well.

You can choose to believe whatever you wish, I can't factually tell you it's 100% happening, but I'm basing my opinion on evidence and not just making it up.

Fair enough. This evidence of which you speak - has it been communicated to you from someone at the club who would know ? Is it what you've observed first hand at training ? Or is it you extrapolating on what you see in matches ?

Serious question. A lot would hope that you are correct but without real evidence, it is just clutching at straws to explain our performances in recent weeks

[layzie 33,805]

3 hours ago, DubDee said:

I hear you, I told my boss my recent poor performance at work was due to 'loading' and he would soon see the benefits.

Suffice to say I am now being performance managed

Haha my cold is pretty bad right now can I use a loading period to explain my performance tomorrow?

[bing181 9,238]

3 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Yes, it's been talked about a lot in AFL circles since his Port days.

Then it should be easy for you to find some links to share with us.

Apart from anything else, if you're going to load up the players, you do it in the period leading up to the finals: mid-July/August. 

It's early June.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

I've posted this image a year or so ago. Here it is again, a rough little guide re: volume and intensity of training within the AFL throughout the season. Interesting that the peak in volume happens to be around the 10-12 space..could it just be coincidence?

Of course it could be outdated and no longer relevant.

Or, this is just but one persons philosophy and doesn't roughly correspond.

Also, why aren't other teams affected in the same way,? (different philosophies and plans of course, as well as each individual going through their microcycle)

From my eyes at the Freo match, seeing M.Gawn on his haunches within the first 5min, and not withstanding potential/probable illnesses, May and Petty injured when a glut of goals was scored... (which was not dissimilar vs Sydney when Petty was off). Looking at some players quite fatigued early on in the piece... it reminded me of last year.

I'd posit, that it'd be useful to see volume and intensity in training, as one way to make sense of one of the factors that is impinging on our performances...

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[spirit of norm smith 16,459]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/demons-humbled-again-as-young-bloods-shock-reigning-premiers-20220604-p5ar37.html
 

not sure A.Wu and S.Goodwin will appraise the game in the same way

“Clayton Oliver, Christian Petracca and Gawn all had productive nights but the Dees’ forward line was impotent”.  Agree from me. 

Lots of “ifs” and should haves !!  

Many many passengers right now who are just doing ok.  

I agree in key stats, the game was very even but Swans executed better under pressure.  Handballing to a teammate within 1 metre of often not constructive imv. 

Umpiring … FFS. Lots of Swans goals from frees or umps distorted view.  Reid’s mark ?? Papley pushed Hunt in the back? Gulden held?? Papley in the back ??? Ladhams barrels Oliver on 3/4 siren - no 50 !!! FFS 
 

 

[Stein9193 129]

16 hours ago, layzie said:

This loading and de-loading crap is being bandied around literally everywhere right now. 

I've never heard this talked about so much. What a ridiculous excuse for losing a game of football that in insane.

[layzie 33,805]

8 minutes ago, Stein9193 said:

I've never heard this talked about so much. What a ridiculous excuse for losing a game of football that in insane.

In one of my group chats this literally became the first thing people were talking about when Sydney ran us and eventually took the lead.

Is it a factor if true? Yes of course it is, but for the common public to be tossing this line around is complete crap. I even had one person in the group saying 'we miss Burgo' probably as a joke but for crying out loud, we don't need Burgo to help us kick a goal for 15 out!

These things can be factors but in terms of excuses they rank up there with 'coming off a 6 day break' and the Bulldogs having to travel so much that the poor sods simply ran out of legs in the second half of last years grand final. It's honk, great teams don't make excuses like that they get it done, so far this season we've been doing exactly that, getting it done. But don't urinate on my back. 

Maybe it's just that in my experience the moment MFC fans start making excuses and feel like moments are one offs they aren't, we spiral out of control and these freedom fighters are either no-where to be seen or at the buffet table with their face smattered in humble pie. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by layzie

[binman 42,970]

9 hours ago, bing181 said:

Apart from anything else, if you're going to load up the players, you do it in the period leading up to the finals: mid-July/August. 

It's early June.

You don't have a bye in July/August to enable an all team two week (sometimes longer) break from playing a game of football and recover from being smashed on the track. 

And teams don't want to be playing sub optimal football in August, one month out from finals.

That is exactly when we started to get rolling last year - round 12 last year was 1 August, and coming off a draw against the Hawks and a loss to the dogs (games we still looked flat in) we thrashed the Suns by close to 100 and never looked back. 

You asked why other teams are not flagging ATM, and i noted the Freo lost two in a row prior to playing us and Brisbane had been flat in the last few weeks.

(perhaps Freo did a block of hard training in that period and freshened up to be ready for the dees and the lions - would make sense and in both games they were clearly running better and, after being behind in the first quarters, were noticeably stronger than us or the lions in the second half of both games)

Well, now the Lions, who were favourite to beat Freo (even though it was in Perth) and are second fav for the flag, have lost 2 of their last 3 games - and the win was a lucky one against the Suns having been 5 goals down in the first quarter.

Feels like a wobble to me.

The Lions play the Saints this week at home. They are big favorites, but if they lose, it will 3 losses from 4 games. 

The last thing i will say about about loading is that our contested ball and tackle numbers have been fine. Our all team pressure numbers haven't.

It seems to me that the obvious issue is we are not spreading and defensively running has hard as were in the first say 9 rounds, or certainly when we were cherry ripe come finals last years.

We are also suddenly more fumbly and making poor decisions - again juts as happened at this exact point in the season last year.

Why is the question.

Perhaps COVID has had an impact, perhaps the flu, maybe injury is biting. 

But i haven't heard or read a convincing argument why so many players running has dropped off at the one point - just as it did at the exact same point last year.

I don't buy that other teams have worked us out (though teams are playing smarter - less dump kicks into our D 50 for example), or our model is flawed, or the players are a bit complacent or that we are coming back to the pack etc etc. 

If people want to think that the problem is one of, a combination of, or all of these issues that's up to them

But i'm sticking with my theory. 

Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct one.

And to be clear my answer isn't an excuse - it is a reason.

And i reckon people should get prepared for some more losses in the next few games - and training loads will be part of the reason for the losses.

I think we will struggle against the Pies, but they play a territory game like us and don't have the same ability to chain up possessions and stretch our defence web as Freo and the Swans. So i predict a low scoring arm wrestle that we just prevail in.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by binman

[poita 3,902]

History shows that back to back premiership winning teams never do it with the exact same personnel or game plan. Standing still is going backwards in professional sport, and that is where we are at. Goodwin isn't prepared to change the game plan and he is determined to run with as close to the same 22/23 from last year as possible.

I'd argue that every team we have played in the past seven weeks has worked us out, but only in the last two weeks have teams been good enough to do something about it. Unfortunately for us, almost every team we play in the last ten games is at that level, so we're going to need to do something different and quickly.

We've got players horribly out of form, players clearly unfit or carrying injuries, and others who just need a rest. I'd almost be tempted to rest 5-6 players this week and give them a proper break before Brisbane in round 15. Reset and start again after the bye.