34 minutes ago, skills32 said:

With the list we have now even Mark Neeld  could get us a flag.

 

Maybe in the Ammo's

15 hours ago, old dee said:

... he has a list capable of being in the top four. 

I'm not convinced by this. We saw last season how poor the depth was when we had a few outs. Even when we we had a full team we couldn't get near Richmond, Port or West Coast.

Sure we have seven or eight players that are good (Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May, Langdon,  Viney, Lever and Salem). But we easily have more strugglers than the current top four. I doubt any improvement will come from  the likes Jetta, Hibberd, Jones, Tomlinson, VDB, M Brown, Melksham or ANB. The hope is the three recruits from 2018 and 2019 come on but I don't think it is enough.

Edited December 30, 20204 yr by dee-tox

I believe that Goodwin will improve in a few ways this year. He has a team around him that he just has to listen to. First thing he needs to do is to work out where the players play their best footy and then coach and train them during the pre season to give them the best chance to excel in those positions.

Next he needs to do better at selection. Select a team to play to a plan against that week’s opposition. No favourites and no selections on what they did last season.

last, plan your game day coaching. Be prepared for a number of eventualities and be flexible and proactive. 
 

I can live in hope...... can’t I?

We were masacred by pre-season injuries in 2019. 

We were flying into the finals in 2020 until Cairns. The Demonland podcast gave a good explanation for our first loss there.

I'll back Goodwin this year.

9 hours ago, dworship said:

Adem Yze; game day strategist, may make a difference. 

so what is Goodwins job??

In my view mostly mediocre teams win games with match day decisions. It’s usually the excuse for why an upset occurs. The good to great teams just play their way better for longer, week in week out and have players crystal clear in their role. I would argue Hardwick is not a much better match day coach, he hardly makes any moves unless out of necessity. The team just play their style of footy better for longer. 

Aside from Cairns we started to have a clearer view of what we wanted to do and started to settle on who did it where. For too long last year we heard we were unsure of our best set up, this lack of confidence to  back a set up really hurt us. The year before, injuries and interrupted preseasons robbed us of having fit players to execute our best set up.  

As others have mentioned we need to be clear how we want to play, put players in the role they are best suited, train them in it and  back it in. The quicker its engrained the more chance we have as the list has the quality and maturity to deploy it better for longer more often than not.  

Edited December 30, 20204 yr by big_red_fire_engine

3 hours ago, dee-tox said:

I'm not convinced by this. We saw last season how poor the depth was when we had a few outs. Even when we we had a full team we couldn't get near Richmond, Port or West Coast.

Sure we have seven or eight players that are good (Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May, Langdon,  Viney, Lever and Salem). But we easily have more strugglers than the current top four. I doubt any improvement will come from  the likes Jetta, Hibberd, Jones, Tomlinson, VDB, M Brown, Melksham or ANB. The hope is the three recruits from 2018 and 2019 come on but I don't think it is enough.

Agree. Eight of 40 or so past their peak. 20% of our list. I'm not convinced Hore, Smith and TMac can lift.

9 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

In my view mostly mediocre teams win games with match day decisions. Its usually the excuse for why an upset occurs. The good to great teams just play their way better for longer week in week out and have players so crystal clear in their role. I would argue Hardwick is not a much better match day coach, he hardly makes any moves unless out of necessity. The team just play their style of footy better for longer. 

 

Agree. The tiger's system, the player's total belief in it and their ability to implement it (which incorporates their commitment to playing their designated role)is why they have been so successful. 

I am even more pusuaded of this view by an excellent book I am currently reading, Captain class by Sam walker, that aims to answer why the greatest sports team are so great. He looks at the question of how significant the coach is. The short answer is not nearly as much is widely thought. Suggests the Lombardi effect has an outsize influence. Its about the players and he posits in terms of the best of the best specifically the captain.

4 hours ago, CHF said:

I believe that Goodwin will improve in a few ways this year. He has a team around him that he just has to listen to. First thing he needs to do is to work out where the players play their best footy and then coach and train them during the pre season to give them the best chance to excel in those positions.

Next he needs to do better at selection. Select a team to play to a plan against that week’s opposition. No favourites and no selections on what they did last season.

last, plan your game day coaching. Be prepared for a number of eventualities and be flexible and proactive. 
 

I can live in hope...... can’t I?

Yes and the best of luck 

I reviewed the Alister Clarkson Coaching history he was appointed after the 2004 season. Richmond and Hawthorn was granted 2 free hits before the first pick recruiting Roughead, Franklin and Lewis with their first 3 picks. It took him till 2008 to win the premiership.

The players already at the club were Hodge another free hit and Crawford. At the time the club was not expecting to win the 2008 premiership because they believed the side was too young.

Hawthorn won the game 18.7 to Geelongs 11.23.

Their next grand final appearance was 2012 which they lost to Sydney.

Maybe Clarkson is a great coach but Norm Smith went to Fitzroy as Captain Coach in 1950 and as coach in 1951, he took over the MFC in 1952 as coach with Checker Hughes as chairman of Selectors and won 6 premierships in the 1950's and 1960's. 

Chris Scott was appointed the coach of Geelong in October 2010 and won the premiership in his 1st year and has been there abouts but has not won another, questions must be asked about is coaching in Finals because he had excellent teams but fell short.

Nathan Buckley was appointed coach of Collingwood at end of the season in 2011 and has fallen short in 9 years at the helm.

In conclusion coaches need 2 things luck and cattle to win finals and premierships. 

4 minutes ago, durango said:

In conclusion coaches need 2 things luck and cattle to win finals and premierships. 

And a decent, consistent game plan that is consistently trained and drilled into all players.  Not to mention putting players in the positions that maximises their strengths.

We have the 5th eldest and 7th most experienced list.  A list built under Goodwin's watch.  If he doesn't have the cattle he has only himself to blame.

Its worth noting that about 10 of Collingwood's 2010 premiership playrs were rookie recruits. 

Its what a coach does with the cattle that counts.

16 hours ago, old dee said:

No where to hide rjay.  Had better give off to a reasonable start or the knives will come quickly.

No doubt there 'old dee'...the feeding frenzy will begin.

17 hours ago, rjay said:

I think it's going to be more about Goody's intent to listen...if he listens, his match day coaching will improve as of course will we.

If he's stubborn, then he's done.

I agree "rjay".

It's fabulous that we've imported more footy nous, especially Williams and Yze, but Goody still makes the final decision. 
If Goodys' stubbornness/ego overrides our assistants good advice, we're in trouble and he'll be out. 
Does Goody have it in him to listen, learn and delegate etc.?

I really have no feelings either way about Goodwin because I don't have any data other than our win/loss ratio plus some obvious externals like our injuries in 2019 etc. and who knows how much the players are responsible as soem posters have discussed. 

Several posters repeatedly say he doesn't listen.  What is the actual evidence for that? (genuine question).

9 minutes ago, sue said:

I really have no feelings either way about Goodwin because I don't have any data other than our win/loss ratio plus some obvious externals like our injuries in 2019 etc. and who knows how much the players are responsible as soem posters have discussed. 

Several posters repeatedly say he doesn't listen.  What is the actual evidence for that? (genuine question).

It is a mix between player and all coaches responsibility, essentially though the head coach is responsible for game plan, match day tactics, selections.  

Over the last 2 years we have seen repeatedly that Simon likes to do thing in his own manner.   I don't think i have ever seen him be proactive from changes made on game day.  Definitely not proactive enough and definitely not reactive enough to the oppositions moves on game day either.  Woiuld he be getting advice from rest of coaching panel on ideas? 100% yes.  Does he listen or do anything? i would say he just stubbornly does what he thinks is best.  

I don't think you are going to find evidence to say that he does not listen but last 2 years results should make you question whether he does. I can see Yze being head coach with Mark WIlliams his right hand man should things not change greatly this year.  We are still so far away from having a solid gameplan currently.  Get Richmond playing our style atm and they would be rabble too.  Over to you again Simon!

Gawn

Petracca

Oliver

Viney

Brayshaw

Lever

May

Langdon

Weideman

Salem

Harmes

Fritsch

Rivers

Pickett

Brown

Jackson

Mcdonald

Lockhart

Petty

Hore

 

surely that’s enough talent to push hard for a Premiership

 

 

 

7 hours ago, dee-tox said:

I'm not convinced by this. We saw last season how poor the depth was when we had a few outs. Even when we we had a full team we couldn't get near Richmond, Port or West Coast.

Sure we have seven or eight players that are good (Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May, Langdon,  Viney, Lever and Salem). But we easily have more strugglers than the current top four. I doubt any improvement will come from  the likes Jetta, Hibberd, Jones, Tomlinson, VDB, M Brown, Melksham or ANB. The hope is the three recruits from 2018 and 2019 come on but I don't think it is enough.

DT your post is IMO partly correct and a true reflection of where we sit.

I agree about the top8 players and that they produced good/ very good seasons in 2020. I would anticipate that they will be again able to set the standards that our team must aspire to. This will be raised as our Coaching  group Is vastly improved. Also in this Coaching Brayshaw Tomlinson  Smith Melksham
and VDB could improve 20% by positional moves and smarter Skills use with the newer coaches influence. For eg. Tomlinson had a good last half at CHB Smith was playing his best footy near the end of the season Gus VDB and Melky had  underwhelming seasons but we're hardly challenged fir their positions
.This  will change  I believe As Jordan Lockhart and Sparrow develop into serious AFL players this year.

And most importantly The class of 2019 and 2020 will rise to the challenge and replace the no performers or over the hill or poor form of previous group who were ok in 2018 And have been poor since.

I can see Jacko Rivers  and Kossie influencing our results and have great faith that Bowey Laurie and Rosman although  Inexperienced will do  a Threepeat of Ports recruits by 2021's  end and provide the Speed, run and carry that our Game  Plan Will need for us to succeed.

The much Anticipated Game Plan will evolve whether Goody likes it or not as Our players ability To play  will  be far more instinctive and aggressive in their performance  each week.
 

This improvement will be a total player coach and environmental upgrade allround and  elevate our level and approach  therefore Results to a new high even more sustaining than 2018.

Call me an optimist but this is what I Believe  will happen This year and even better in 2022 so that we are fully in contention for top4 and It's potential honours.

16 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Gawn

Petracca

Oliver

Viney

Brayshaw

Lever

May

Langdon

Weideman

Salem

Harmes

Fritsch

Rivers

Pickett

Brown

Jackson

Mcdonald

Lockhart

Petty

Hore

 

surely that’s enough talent to push hard for a Premiership

 

 

 

It is if it is developed well and a game plan evolves. Add our 3 newest recruits who ste vital in our mix snd game plan to them and we are nearly ticking all the nieces of talent and potential.

Just now, 58er said:

It is if it is developed well and a game plan evolves. Add our 3 newest recruits who ste vital in our mix snd game plan to them and we are nearly ticking all the nieces of talent and potential.

Sorry nieces means boxes !!

47 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

It is a mix between player and all coaches responsibility, essentially though the head coach is responsible for game plan, match day tactics, selections.  

Over the last 2 years we have seen repeatedly that Simon likes to do thing in his own manner.   I don't think i have ever seen him be proactive from changes made on game day.  Definitely not proactive enough and definitely not reactive enough to the oppositions moves on game day either.  Woiuld he be getting advice from rest of coaching panel on ideas? 100% yes.  Does he listen or do anything? i would say he just stubbornly does what he thinks is best.  

I don't think you are going to find evidence to say that he does not listen but last 2 years results should make you question whether he does. I can see Yze being head coach with Mark WIlliams his right hand man should things not change greatly this year.  We are still so far away from having a solid gameplan currently.  Get Richmond playing our style atm and they would be rabble too.  Over to you again Simon!

I don't disagree with much of that, but as you say, I doubt if anyone will be able to produce direct evidence that he doesn't listen.  That will be just inferred from the team's lack of success.  Given the large number of other factors that may effect performance, it's a big step to say he doesn't listen. 

Maybe when he fails to make the sort of changes some posters point to, it's because he's been listening too much - but to the wrong advice!  Let's speculate as to who this conservative stick-in-the-mud is.  (Yes, my tongue is planted firmly into my cheek.)

Our bottom 5 or6 players don't really cut the ice. A marked improvement there will see us competative.

As captain of the ship he has final say on game plan, selection and in game switches. The coaching group will provide input but it’s his call ultimately.

Why do people say he doesn’t listen? There isn’t a shred of evidence to support this. If he doesn’t listen then Pert has just wasted his time adding Yze and Williams to the ticket. If the review had revealed this in Goodwin then he would have been out the door already.

The more I think of it the Freo game will be the perfect barometer of whether the off-field changes have made a difference. If our midfield functions properly and our delivery to our forwards is reasonable we should win. If not, Freo will beat us. Their team isn’t as mature as ours but they are better coached. They won’t fear us. There can be no honorable defeat, no positives or “learnings” to be had. Lose and the jungle drums will start to beat loudly.

I actually think Goodwin from 16-18 did a heck of a job and should've been regarded as a top 6 coach in the comp at that time. Outside of the round 23 disaster costing us finals in 2017 he got the most out of that list with an innovative and aggressive game plan. Yes it had it's flaws, but most sides do. Geelong this year were dominating the grand final and after the game you look at them and think how the heck did they even get close with that side and that plan.

Obviously 2019 was a disaster and last year a mixed bag and yes there's a case that some of the issues that led to 19/20 should've been addressed ahead of time rather than waiting until they became abundantly clear. 

But going in to 2021 we've got:
Backline: should be decent but lacks mature depth unless Lever finally hits his potential and a number of Hore/Smith/Petty/Lockhart/Rivers lock down spots.
Midfield: needs a massive retune to stop the issues of 19/20 for good, Yze has a huge task
Forwards: dramatically overhauled since 2018 with a mix of young players and now the addition of B Brown.

And all of that personnel change means establishing a new plan which takes time. 

If we're bad, then Goody goes, that's pretty clear cut. But if we're somewhere between 6-10th on the ladder then assessing if we're actually on the right path or not is very difficult and we could actually be heading in the right direction and needing a bit more patience. 

 

23 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

On Tuesday the Demons coach accepted the comments placed more pressure on him, and said he would listen to what was said.

“I’ve spoken to Glen at length and he’s had nothing but support for myself,” Goodwin said.

“I was employed to lead this footy club with a clear strategy to lead us to our next premiership and I’m still very confident we will be able to do that.

“If those comments put pressure on me then I’ve got to accept that and I take responsibility for our performance.

Demons coach Simon Goodwin admits he’s under pressure but privately has been given ‘nothing but support’

Rubbish to suggest pressure only comes from the media.

I feel Goodys comment is not entirely correct or if it is Barlett is not doing his job. To say they spoke at length and Barlett only being supportive sounds odd. Surely Barlett has said, words to the effect. We need and expect results. You are now fully equipped with players and capable coaching staff, we support you, but its time for results.

8 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

We were masacred by pre-season injuries in 2019. 

We were flying into the finals in 2020 until Cairns. The Demonland podcast gave a good explanation for our first loss there.

I'll back Goodwin this year.

A high quality side such as Richmond or Geelong simply would've got the job done had they been sent to Cairns to play two pretty damn average sides in Sydney and Freo, no matter the adversity.

That's what separates the high quality clubs and high quality coaches from our club and our coach.