Death by the pre-tackle

[DeeSpencer 26,323]

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

[sue 9,197]

I agree. Many times we get pinged for holding the ball at centre ball-ups because one hand of Oliver etc is being held before they take possession of the ball.  Or it ensures we don't get away. 

But I fear the club will never complain because to quote Simon "It is what it is".

[Ungarieboy 453]

Then we spread the news, send it to the various footy shows; they are always looking for content.

Maybe Titus can make a joke of it raising its profile.

[3183 Dee 2,915]

18 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

Great post @DeeSpencer - I hadn’t picked up on that. I’d noticed that, once again, Gawn is constantly hung onto by his direct opponent at a ball-up. Might be interesting to send this into the club?

[loges 6,767]

24 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

I noticed that a few times, our player grabbed before he'd taken possession of the ball.

[deanox 10,046]

This is a great thread and topic and I how the AFL deals with this correctly. 

Firstly: I love their current "hot" approach to holding the ball. The intention is great because it will speed the play up. The umpiring execution is poor because it is inconsistent and ignores when the ball is held to a player who really didn't have a chance. (They need to pay it more often and quicker,  not occasionally and drawn out).

But to address the next step, the umpires need to prioritise holding the man free kicks. Lots of them. Make it painful and risky to grab a player before they get the ball. Reward the ball player first, reward the tackler second. 

This will open space. The best players will get another half a second which is all they need to clear it.  It will mean that coaches need to try to win the ball not catch the man, unless they deploy a specialist stopper.

And opening up these contests will open up the ground to faster movement and thus scoring.

 

The worst thing they can do is relax the htb frees. It'll close the game again. 

[godees 892]

Hopefully the focus on Cripps this week will help our players as well

[La Dee-vina Comedia 17,041]

Excellent pick up. I mistakenly thought the problem was our inability to clean grab the ball in the wet compared with the Brisbane players.(Just to be clear, some of our players, such as Hannan, Harmes and Fritsch, definitely had a problem gripping the slippery ball at other times during the game).

Now that you've pointed this out to me, I wonder what else I miss when watching games.

[Ham 741]

Players need to penalized for this.
You use your body, not your arms, simple. 

[Lucifers Hero 40,524]

All teams do this including us.  The better teams do it better than us. 

Usually if Viney and Oliver are being scragged one of the other mids isn't, can take Max's hitouts and attack.   Max talked about this a few weeks ago.  That week it was Petracca that was able to get free. 

It won't change unless someone makes the umpires aware of it. 

No reason that Max, as captain can't highlight it to the umpires at the end of a quarter. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Redleg 41,962]

29 minutes ago, godees said:

Hopefully the focus on Cripps this week will help our players as well

Won’t help one but unless WE raise it. The big mouth clubs who whinge in the media do seem to get looked after. How often after the Pies have 25 to 8 frees their way, is a missed free to them highlighted in the media. Often by commentator McGuire. 

[Redleg 41,962]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

Well done, great get. You should email the club and Sun and Age.

[Ethan Tremblay 31,243]

We need Clarkson to make the call. It was frustrating to watch it happen over and over again without a player ever being pinged for it.  Umpires are [censored]. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Ethan Tremblay

[Swooper1987 3,322]

An excellent post DeeSpencer.  The other one is the constant hanging off Gawn at every opportunity, the cannoning into him at every contested marking opportunity and the non existent protection provided to him because he's 7 foot tall.  It's almost as though different rules apply to him re chopping of the arms, in the back and holding the man. 

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,525]

YES!
Was noticing it more and more as the game went on.  Fair enough that the central umpire was missing, but surely holding off the ball is what the other two should be looking out for at stoppages.

[ChaserJ 5,174]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

Thanks for posting the examples DS, had been discussing this with Dees twitter post game. Drove me nuts on Sunday! Happens to.Clayton every week and a big part of why we can’t capitalise on Max’s ruck dominance.

 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Imagine an umpires director who was as proactive and in search of incremental excellence as much as, say, Clarkson or Chris Scott are towards their teams of players.

Unfortunately we'll have to imagine it, because previous umpires directors have not even known the rules of the game, and the current one seems to pay more attention to the needs of Channel 7 than the game he's custodian of.

[sue 9,197]

Clearly the tactic is most useful and worth pushing as far as you can if you are playing against a team with a dominant ruckman. ie. us. Club needs to take it up with AFL

 

[Biffen 12,949]

It was called "holding the man" in my day.

[deebug 1,754]

I wish the club would have the balls to say something?

It seems holding the man has been thrown out the door.

[P-man 13,366]

Yep, holding the man isn’t ruled anywhere near enough. Brisbane clearly brought an aggressive mentality but they overstepped and got away with a lot of garbage on the weekend.

If the umpires are going to let this go then we will have to consider the old ‘if you can’t beat em join em’ approach.

[BAMF 4,450]

2 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

An excellent post DeeSpencer.  The other one is the constant hanging off Gawn at every opportunity, the cannoning into him at every contested marking opportunity and the non existent protection provided to him because he's 7 foot tall.  It's almost as though different rules apply to him re chopping of the arms, in the back and holding the man. 

The interesting (and clever) move Brisbane did was have a player sit off the back of Max when he was going for the mark from a down the line kick. Wait till Max is about to take it, then cannon into the back of him, essentially a body spoil preventing him from taking the mark. 

They knew they were outgunned and planned accordingly. Great coaching from Fagan and nothing illegal to it either.

Edited July 27, 2020 by BAMF

[Dame Gaga 2,453]

Wow, thanks for pointing out the fact that Oliver actually does have TWO arms! I have been labouring under the mistaken impression that poor Clayton only had one. 

So that explains all the three armed opposition players.?LOL.

[titan_uranus 25,176]

Great post @DeeSpencer.

I felt this was happening as I watched live so it's nice to see it validated through your hard work of taking the screenshots.

Good teams have always been able to push the envelope better than others. Geelong's been doing it for years. Collingwood blocked players off the ball and standing the mark. The Dogs in 2016 were great at falling to their knees for high contact.

Carlton's made a point of the holding of Cripps at stoppages. If the focus this week of the umpires is to look for holds at stoppages, maybe Port won't be able to get away with it.

In the meantime, we have to improve our cleanliness with our first touch (Neale was sublime when he got first touch at stoppages) and maybe there is some way we can demonstrate being held more without becoming sooky/reactive.

[Demon Dude 425]

yeah i thought the umpires let the Lions mids get away with holding the man way too much early on. it was frustrating to watch but its not the first time this has happened to us. normally the umps like to pull teams up on it and pay a free early on in a game to keep them from going overboard with it, but that didn't happen yesterday. i noticed we got a few paid later on in the game, probably only after we'd raised the point with them at half time though.