Post Match Discussion: JLT #1 vs North Melbourne

[Macca 17,005]

Brayshaw's kicking to position is A1 ... once he gets complete confidence watch him gun it.  Not many possess the skill to see the game ahead of them but Gus has got that skill. 

He's had a terrible time of it with all the concussions and just needs a good go at it ... it's best to judge the bloke on his footy and not get annoyed at his unavailability.  He is still very young (22)

[Deestroy All 14,266]

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Big, fit, strong and competitive. It made sense that he start out a backman. I think we need to calm expectations a little on Tommy as a forward. Good defenders who read the play as well as he does will make life hard for him, he won't out reach, out power or out sprint them and he doesn't have a lot of tricks at ground level. He has a decent sidestep but that's about it, he's unlikely to snap goals or go on his left. He'll also chase hard but won't be a super agile forward pressure player.

His ability to run all day, compete in the air, lead hard at the kicker in between zones and hopefully reasonably consistent goal kicking can make him useful but he's the foil for Hogan/Petracca/Fritsch/Hannan etc more than being the main man. There's going to be times during the year the media will say he should go back and even games when he does go back. 

It was a rhetorical question. 

I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said. Defenders that read the play as well as him make life hard for the best forwards, so that goes without saying. 

He snapped a winning goal on his left last year, fair trick that. 

He just plays better on instinct, when he has time to butcher a kick in play, he does. 

His dish off handball to Fritsch and similar things he did last year also show he’s more than capable when it hits the ground. 

And his set shots are sublime, I don’t know how  

He’s just far more valuable as a forward. No doubt he’ll have to go back at times, but that’s just a valuable asset to have. 

 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,876]

Give it a rest. Brayshaw had a fantastic debut season where he only missed one game, followed by injury interrupted (knee and concussions) in 2016/17. Give him some time to build some confidence before you make him the new whipping boy. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Ethan Tremblay

[Macca 17,005]

6 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Give it a rest. Brayshaw had a fantastic debut season where he only missed one game, followed by injury interrupted (knee and concussions) in 2016/17. Give him some time to build some confidence before you make him the new whipping boy. 

Well if it's not Gus it will be someone else (ugh)

I've never understood it - seems a bit caveman(ish)

I go right back - Graeme Osborne and then way later on,  Tony Campbell.  Parke used to cop it (kicking)

And of course Tilbrook went from being the saviour to the cause of all our issues.  Then there's Watts. 

It never ends ET

[DeeSpencer 25,723]

23 minutes ago, Deestroy All said:

It was a rhetorical question. 

I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said. Defenders that read the play as well as him make life hard for the best forwards, so that goes without saying. 

He snapped a winning goal on his left last year, fair trick that. 

He just plays better on instinct, when he has time to butcher a kick in play, he does. 

His dish off handball to Fritsch and similar things he did last year also show he’s more than capable when it hits the ground. 

And his set shots are sublime, I don’t know how  

He’s just far more valuable as a forward. No doubt he’ll have to go back at times, but that’s just a valuable asset to have. 

 

Getting tackled, throwing the ball on to your left and having it sail through is nice but it was through sheer force more than a particular skill. They all count the same of course but he's not going to kick goals like that nearly as much as natural forwards like Buddy, Daniher, Josh Kennedy and Jack Riewoldt.

He competes on the ground - backline training drills that in you, but again, he's not the lateral moving and quickness athlete to be a star pressure player. Bit of a tangent now but forward pressure is spoken about by a lot in the footy media as an effort contest, and effort is a huge part of it, but there's also a coaching factor to it, a coordination with team mates factor and just natural talent. Richmond were the best last year because they were giving it their all, coached up, coordinated (so often the same players) and they were the right athletes.

Macca provided a really good description of his kicking. As a young player he used to kick mongrel punts that were somewhat effective. Then he learnt a methodical kicking action that got the ball to spin right but it wasn't natural and so depth perception was the real weakness. So often he'd actually pick a good option but have it chopped off. Then as Tom alluded to recently he became very stressed when disposing off the ball under pressure. Set shots allow him to keep the very straight and methodical style and just aim for the goals and make sure the ball has the distance. As long as he kicks a good percentage and stays with the routine it should work.

Cale Hooker kicked 40 goals in 21 games last year and averaged 7 marks and at times plenty thought he should go back. That's about the standard I think is realistic for Tom. As fans I think we have to be prepared for when the suggestion is made that Tom goes back. I hope Goody is ready with a strong answer that avoids the distraction.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

People writing off Brayshaw? Crazy. Only about to commence his 4th season and his short career to date has been massively hampered by injury. He'll play midfield/wing rotating through the flanks like about a dozen other players. And he'll be a key part of our team moving forward. He's still about 2-3 years off hitting his peak. 

[Skuit 10,031]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

He competes on the ground - backline training drills that in you, but again, he's not the lateral moving and quickness athlete to be a star pressure player. Bit of a tangent now but forward pressure is spoken about by a lot in the footy media as an effort contest, and effort is a huge part of it, but there's also a coaching factor to it, a coordination with team mates factor and just natural talent.

 

The bolded has been my biggest concern. The compromise in all out forward pressure due to his lack of agility. But I've come think that it may contrarily be his best attribute relative to what what we need - in that he tends to lead in straight, open lines.

[bandicoot 1,395]

13 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Not a chance he is anywhere near our top 5 players. If the team was picked for round 1 now on merit, he would not be in the side.

He has been underwhelming in the little we have seen this preseason. Was given a go in the midfield yesterday and failed to make an impact then gave away silly free kicks when playing down back. 

The biggest concern is his poor skills, that kick to Salem 1 on 3 was dreadful.

Like everyone I'm hoping he can become what we thought he would be, but he is far from that at the moment. 

Underwhelming this pre season? 1 glorified training drill and a half paced JLT game. You are a hard judge.

id rather rate him on his 26 disposals against the saints last year after a 4 month break 

[forever demons 2,221]

Brayshaw will a be a gun why give him a hard time no different to tracc 4th year in and showing about the same amount of ability and nobody bags tracc

[low flying Robbo 979]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Frosty should start training as a backup ruckman in case Max goes down. I reckon he'd be good at it. He can give himself a run up at each ball up and those stand and jump type guys will try to block him and there should be free after free for it.... at least until the AFL change the rules to stop it...

[jackaub 1,402]

While I have never been a fan of Salem his disposal yesterday was sublime

He showed composure and great skills and decision making

I hope he continues for the rest of the season easily our most skilled kicker on yesterdays performance

[dee-tox 4,835]

Best five: Melksham, Salem, ANB, Gawn and Harmes.

Worst five: Maynard, Stretch, Brayshaw, Pedo and Wagner.

[samcantstandya 1,057]

8 hours ago, Macca said:

Well if it's not Gus it will be someone else (ugh)

I've never understood it - seems a bit caveman(ish)

I go right back - Graeme Osborne and then way later on,  Tony Campbell.  Parke used to cop it (kicking)

And of course Tilbrook went from being the saviour to the cause of all our issues.  Then there's Watts. 

It never ends ET

Campbell was a crap player who thought he was a star

[samcantstandya 1,057]

43 minutes ago, jackaub said:

While I have never been a fan of Salem his disposal yesterday was sublime

He showed composure and great skills and decision making

I hope he continues for the rest of the season easily our most skilled kicker on yesterdays performance

Salem will be a gun if can stay injury free 

[Jaded No More 68,966]

8 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Give it a rest. Brayshaw had a fantastic debut season where he only missed one game, followed by injury interrupted (knee and concussions) in 2016/17. Give him some time to build some confidence before you make him the new whipping boy. 

Agreed.

Nobody here would know the difficulty of going out on a footy field knowing that you're perhaps one concussion away from retirement. He has had an awful run with injuries and is still finding his feet. Hasn't even played 50 games yet! Everyone is so quick to point out and write players off.

To me Brayshaw will be the perfect Jones replacement when Jones retires. 

 

On a different note, Salem showed on Saturday that he doesn't need massive numbers to make some serious damage. I hope he and Hunt spend significant time on the wing this year. 
Hunt and Oliver will get some serious tags this year, and I hope both learn to cope with them. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Jaded

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

1 hour ago, jackaub said:

While I have never been a fan of Salem his disposal yesterday was sublime

He showed composure and great skills and decision making

I hope he continues for the rest of the season easily our most skilled kicker on yesterdays performance

His kicking has always been sublime.

[Deemania since 56 6,658]

11 hours ago, Winter Dan said:

Would like to see Frost in the 22, however I suspect the coaches are valuing a more assured foot in Wagner. Joel Smith might ultimately be the solution.

Interesting. Joel Smith could be ready to 'burn' for the MFC. He looks more than handy - just awaiting an opportunity. Wagner has made his presence felt and appears quite mobile with generally good delivery of the football. I still like Frosty, for one, who can do most things well at some rapid rate - certainly aggressively with such momentum.

[Deemania since 56 6,658]

2 hours ago, low flying Robbo said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Frosty should start training as a backup ruckman in case Max goes down. I reckon he'd be good at it. He can give himself a run up at each ball up and those stand and jump type guys will try to block him and there should be free after free for it.... at least until the AFL change the rules to stop it...

Really interesting idea - he certainly gets the height, directional changes and reactive actions necessary for the quality of the bounce. If he is blocked in his approach to the tap of the ball, then he would earn a free, for sure, under the newer interpretations of the rucking craft. We cannot have Max doing as much as he has done in the past prior to his injury during last season. Are we hoping that he (Max) can remain injury-free with this expected workload? Max does need rotational assistance and perhaps - no, certainly - Frosty could provide this with an older-style rucking run-up and technique. I'd often thought that Frosty could hold down CHB quite well and/or perform in the ruck. He can manage body-on-body contacts if required. Just ideas....

[Deemania since 56 6,658]

57 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Agreed.

Nobody here would know the difficulty of going out on a footy field knowing that you're perhaps one concussion away from retirement. He has had an awful run with injuries and is still finding his feet. Hasn't even played 50 games yet! Everyone is so quick to point out and write players off.

To me Brayshaw will be the perfect Jones replacement when Jones retires. 

 

On a different note, Salem showed on Saturday that he doesn't need massive numbers to make some serious damage. I hope he and Hunt spend significant time on the wing this year. 
Hunt and Oliver will get some serious tags this year, and I hope both learn to cope with them. 

Nice laterality of thought in this post.

[Deemania since 56 6,658]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Big, fit, strong and competitive. It made sense that he start out a backman. I think we need to calm expectations a little on Tommy as a forward. Good defenders who read the play as well as he does will make life hard for him, he won't out reach, out power or out sprint them and he doesn't have a lot of tricks at ground level. He has a decent sidestep but that's about it, he's unlikely to snap goals or go on his left. He'll also chase hard but won't be a super agile forward pressure player.

His ability to run all day, compete in the air, lead hard at the kicker in between zones and hopefully reasonably consistent goal kicking can make him useful but he's the foil for Hogan/Petracca/Fritsch/Hannan etc more than being the main man. There's going to be times during the year the media will say he should go back and even games when he does go back. 

Tom should stay back at fullback. He covers that area and rebounds better than most. He steers others to cover opponents. Other than often telegraphing his intent with the football in hand, he does apply terrific pressure and mobility to rebound attacks that start in the backline. He makes our whole backline set-up look elite. So often, he brings or punches the ball to ground to the advantage of his team-mates or run-on clearances. We have forwards to burn this year and Tom, whilst capable in a forward role, better serves the team in defence.

[whatwhat say what 22,783]

17 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Tom should stay back at fullback. He covers that area and rebounds better than most. He steers others to cover opponents. Other than often telegraphing his intent with the football in hand, he does apply terrific pressure and mobility to rebound attacks that start in the backline. He makes our whole backline set-up look elite. So often, he brings or punches the ball to ground to the advantage of his team-mates or run-on clearances. We have forwards to burn this year and Tom, whilst capable in a forward role, better serves the team in defence.

completely disagree

you could just as easily counter every point you've made as to why he'd just as easily make a good forward; i think the thing with t mac is his versatility and that he can play both positions equally well:

• He covers that area and rebounds leads up the ground better than most
• He steers others to cover opponents providing great leadership anywhere on the ground
• he does apply terrific pressure and mobility to rebound attacks that start in the backline stop oppo defenders having easy exits
• He makes our whole backline forward set-up look elite
• So often, he pulls down the contested mark OR brings or punches the ball to ground to the advantage of his team-mates or run-on clearances scoring opportunities
• We have forwards to burn this year a surplus of defenders and Tom, whilst capable in a forward defensive role, better serves the team in defence the forward line

i completely back in the coaching decision to deploy him forward

i can also understand why some other demon tragics still like him as a defender

he's really important to sign up for future years ahead as i think he's integral to our side no matter the role he plays

[Wiseblood 24,637]

37 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Tom should stay back at fullback. 

We don't need him in that role anymore, plus our backline takes more of a zone approach, which is one of the reasons why we got Lever who is the master at it.

I can see why you want to keep him there, but he'll be of more value to us up forward this year.

[binman 43,134]

Some random thoughts:

•  I'm 100% not in the 'juries out camp on Brayshaw. A smart, strong natural footballer whose versatility and ability to play in multiple positions is a strength not a liability. Goodwin noted as much in his presser when asked about the role he was going to play this year. I watched the replay and thought he was pretty good actually - tackled well, made good decisions, good hands and kicking solid. I concede there are a number of players fighting for his spot and so i might be proven be wrong on this but i think he will start round one and all things being equal stay in the side through the year
• TMac up  forward is geniuys move. he provides a focal point and is now key from a structural point of view. Allows Hogan to be more mobile and roam far and wide and brings the smaller player into the game with his ability to bring the ball to ground. A key strategic focus for the dees under goodwin has been getting the ball in quickly and long from pack situation to about 30 metres out from goal (combined with looking for the short option when we are running the ball down the ground into space). Can be frustrating as it seems they are just bombing away sometimes but it is clearly a Goodwin ploy. TMac helps it to work. In many ways he is playing the classic Carey type CHF role (though perhaps starting deeper). The other thing is how well he kicks for goals. Elite. 
• I'll admit i was surprised they didn't play Frost. It might have been a match up thing and maybe he will get a run this week but nt a great sign for Frosty, a player i really like. I suspect his biggest problem is his kicking. You simply cannot afford to cough the ball up from HB

[rjay 24,983]

3 hours ago, low flying Robbo said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Frosty should start training as a backup ruckman in case Max goes down. I reckon he'd be good at it. He can give himself a run up at each ball up and those stand and jump type guys will try to block him and there should be free after free for it.... at least until the AFL change the rules to stop it...

 

56 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Really interesting idea - he certainly gets the height, directional changes and reactive actions necessary for the quality of the bounce. If he is blocked in his approach to the tap of the ball, then he would earn a free, for sure, under the newer interpretations of the rucking craft.

Frosty has been tried in the ruck before so it's not a new idea.

He's not doing it now for a reason, it didn't work.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

3 hours ago, jackaub said:

While I have never been a fan of Salem his disposal yesterday was sublime

He showed composure and great skills and decision making

I hope he continues for the rest of the season easily our most skilled kicker on yesterdays performance

Salem's disposal has always been sublime, and composed he has never had a full season, if he plays 20+ games this season he will be elite.