POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 7

[DeeZee 6,801]

Max Gawn

Joel Smith

Brayshaw

Vandenberg

Make us a lot better

I know there should be no excuses but geez it's hard when you getting smashed in the ruck.

[Lucifers Hero 37,207]

I was disappointed with Lewis' leadership yesterday.  From his pre game interviews he was naturally keen to play well against his old side. 

But did he become preoccupied with that and forget to look after the team? 

I noticed that after he kicked each goal he celebrated like I have never seen him do before, even when at Hawthorn.  Understandably, they meant a lot to him.  But his last goal was a few minutes before the siren and we could still win it.  In the past he would have raced back to position, calmed everyone down and set everyone up for the next bounce.

But I felt he 'took his eye off the ball' as our on-field-general.  The previous week he chatted to Pedersen and the midfielders at centre bounces etc.  Not so much yesterday.  It looked like he was in 'individual performance' mode rather than 'team' mode.  In fact most our players looked in 'individual performance' mode.

Unfortunately, while our other leaders worked hard, there was no one to fill the void of on-field-general.  Again, we paid the price of not having one.  (Viney's wonderful individual performance notwithstanding).

Edited May 8, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[Sir Why You Little 34,688]

31 minutes ago, dino rover said:

He cant kick goals

Nothing practise couldn't fix. 

 

[praha 10,305]

8 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I was disappointed with Lewis' leadership yesterday.  From his pre game interviews he was naturally keen to play well against his old side. 

But did he become preoccupied with that and forget to look after the team? 

I noticed that after he kicked each goal he celebrated like I have never seen him do before, even when at Hawthorn.  Understandably, they meant a lot to him.  But his last goal was a few minutes before the siren and we could still win it.  In the past he would have raced back to position, calmed everyone down and set everyone up for the next bounce.

But I felt he 'took his eye off the ball' as our on-field-general.  The previous week he chatted to Pedersen and the midfielders at centre bounces etc.  Not so much yesterday.  It looked like he was in 'individual performance' mode rather than 'team' mode.  In fact most our players looked in 'individual performance' mode.

Unfortunately, while our other leaders worked hard, there was no one to fill the void of on-field-general.  Again, we paid the price of not having one.  (Viney's wonderful individual performance notwithstanding).

Bit rough. His goals were important ones that kept us in the fight, which is important to note because every time we've been close this year, he's played his role and was either the beacon of composure down back, or stood up and kicked a goal/s when we needed some scoreboard pressure. He delivered yesterday and kept us within a goal of a win.

[Rogue 585]

Without really playing any better at all we could very easily be five or six wins and sitting in the top two or four on the ladder.

I'm okay with people who think the sky is falling regardless of this fact.

What I have a problem with is that I know a bunch of the 'the sky is falling' crowd would have a different opinion if we were 5-2 or 6-1 on the ladder, even if we'd played very similar footy.

[Young Blood 2,036]

Yeah I think you're over reading Lewis there Lucifer.

He kicked the goal, had a quick celebration (I imagine he was pretty fired up) then settled and got back into position.

Edited May 8, 2017 by mongrel

[demonique 314]

Wound the clock back 5 years yesterday ! I Unfortunately had some horrible flashbacks last night

[Soidee 1,496]

3 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Don't ususally agree with Wallace but he is on to something.

I said at the start of the season our defence is our biggest problem and it still is. We need a big reliable KP backman that can distribute the ball efficiently and make sound decisions.

I suspect the coaches thought Melksham, Hibberd, Salem, Jetta, Frost and Hunt would be able to distribute the ball but it's not working well yet. We still leak groups of goals really easily.

Tom I think has actually improved but still has at least 5 or 6 disposals that put his teamates under extreme pressure. He is a great intercept mark but that disposal.....

Oscar just isn't there yet. May well get there but he is being iosolated one on one and found out at the moment.

I agree with Wallace!  TMac has energy, can run, can intercept Mark, however he is not a smart footballer.  His decision making is embarrassing and he is too slow to react.  He has been smacked so far this year for a key back.  I'm with Wallace....we need a key defender who can make decisions and can kick.

[Young Blood 2,036]

I saw T-Mac really fumble the ball in close to Hawthorns goal.

Did he make many really bad kicking mistakes yesterday?

Thought his decision making was better.

[Lucifers Hero 37,207]

12 minutes ago, praha said:

Bit rough. His goals were important ones that kept us in the fight, which is important to note because every time we've been close this year, he's played his role and was either the beacon of composure down back, or stood up and kicked a goal/s when we needed some scoreboard pressure. He delivered yesterday and kept us within a goal of a win.

12 minutes ago, mongrel said:

Yeah I think you're over reading Lewis there Lucifer.

He kicked the goal, had a quick celebration (I imagine he was pretty fired up) then settled and got back into position.

Fair enough.

Its just that our kids looked a bit lost in the first half and I've come to rely on Lewis working to herd them back to the game plan etc and I didn't see it so much yesterday.

Thanks for feedback.

[daisycutter 28,635]

23 hours ago, Pates said:

JKH can't survive this week, while I don't think he's been as bad as what some of D-land feels he is ineffectual. Doesn't influence the contest, not enough forward pressure, and doesn't have that mercurial edge he first started with. Must be dropped for Kent. 

Bugg was another who appeared to do very little, the one passage of play I can remember from him was him trying to pass it instead of going for goal. Sometimes you need to be a little selfish in the forward line if the goals are on offer. 

truth is pates, we didn't see much of that mercurial edge when he first started, t'was just a glimpse here and there. we just exaggerated it because he was a first year player

[What 18,810]

4 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

truth is pates, we didn't see much of that mercurial edge when he first started, t'was just a glimpse here and there. we just exaggerated it because he was a first year player

He had a really good game in that win vs the Crows at Adelaide Oval in 2014.   Still remember that beautiful goal he kicked.

Shame he never went on with it.

[dimmy 1,140]

2 hours ago, drdrake said:

My concern with Brayshaw is his concussion issues, the boy can play.  Wouldn't say he is a disappointment, he can play but do you know what this is secondary to his long term health, I just hope for his sake he can work out his concussion issues

I agree wholeheartedly that the kids problem is the concussion issues.  He is a really good kid and deserves support rather than criticism because he has not met the "standard"expected of him.

Like wise we are now only seeing Salem starting to blossom , again in the face of injury and illness. Often there are issues outside the control of the kids whic is frustrating for them as well, but their health is paramount to their footballing.

[Binmans PA 26,292]

3 hours ago, mongrel said:

This is just a sample of the experience of our backline compared to Hawthorns. Yes they built a dynasty but they built it over TIME. I'm leaving Tommy Mac and Hibberd out but I've left Burgoyne out here too. Just look at the difference. We need to give these guys time to develop.

Oscar McDonald - 21 (22 games)

Jayden Hunt - 22 (26 games)

Josh Wagner - 22 (15 games)

Sam Frost - 23 (22 games for MFC)

VS.

Grant Birchall - 29 (243 games)

James Frawley - 28 (186 games)

Ben Stratton - 28 (145 games)

Josh Gibson - 33 (220 games)

Melbournes backline: 88 games total

Hawthorns backline: 794 games total

I think all of our defenders have the potential. They're athletic, have a good intensity and work rate and are all good one on one defenders. Kicking from the backline is not easy and that along with decision making will come with time. It's obvious the difference in confidence and composure when Lewis, Hibberd, Vince and Jetta have the ball compared to our younger players. We are very much still developing.

I'm well aware of the experience differential. I'm on record as rating Hunt, Frost and Wagner. Reckon they'll all make it. I've also defended Oscar for the last year and a bit too and believe he could make it one day too. My post was in reference to his brother and having to wait 4-5 years for Oscar to develop. Frost is already making great strides in his game, as was Wagner in 2016 and Hunt is already a star. 

Tom's decision making is not good enough. It's less about his kicking. He simply doesn't know his limitations and it will cost us a final if he keeps playing and has multiple times already. Tom has played 111 games at 24 years of age. His intercept marking against Richmond was great, but he let himself down in 1v1s and his kicking. That was his best game, along with the Essendon game (where he also butchered it by foot, but played a lot better), since early 2016. His inconsistency as one of our leaders is the major factor in our lack of leadership. 

You can't really say Frost has only played 22 games and include that in your stats. He's played 44. More pertinent is the lack of continuity this group have had together. This impacts on the ability to trust each other and sees multiple players fly, because no one else thinks the rest are capable of killing or spoiling the contest. This will fix itself with time. How many years more do we wait for Tom McDonald to make the right decision consistently though? Frost's decision making has already surpassed Tom's. That's damning, given the games played stat.

Edited May 8, 2017 by A F

[dimmy 1,140]

29 minutes ago, mongrel said:

I saw T-Mac really fumble the ball in close to Hawthorns goal.

Did he make many really bad kicking mistakes yesterday?

Thought his decision making was better.

I agree . He is not the only defender in AFL history to have a fumble in the backline. Actually I saw the repaly today and he was terrific.

[John Crow Batty 8,276]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Garry Lyon is correct here. 100%

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/05/07/lyon-slams-melbournes-mental-fragility/

Similar to what  I have been saying for a long time. What irks me is posters blaming our problems on fringe and developing players. This is a team psychology problem caused by decades of underachieving and damaged leadership. We have a top 2 team here that needs to shed its demons to progress.

Edited May 8, 2017 by america de cali

[Binmans PA 26,292]

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

What a frustrating loss by a group whose arousal levels need to be at high alert all of the time, not just some of the time.  They get too comfortable too quickly.  

As you say, Brayshaw is the disappointment.  In his third year we need the class in the midfield we now expected him to be providing.  I still rate him highly, others don't, but him being the mid we hoped for and expected would make a huge difference.

Selection is just one component, but it's another element that has been a bit baffling over the last couple of weeks.  I didn't mind Weideman early days, or the retention of Melksham, but for the life of me I question Kennedy-Harris and Bugg getting games ahead of Harmes, Stretch, Kent and even what Neal-Bullen was showing in the main.  Harmes isn't perfect, but he's a big fast body who has a crack.  Give me Harmes over Bugg every day of the year.  Kent might have needed a rocket, but gee, he would have provided more than JKH.  Stretch isn't immune to playing in the VFL, but he also offers more, albeit in a different role.

That said, I won't forget the positives.  Being 4th on the 'quarters won' ladder shows we're playing some very good footy in parts, so does the frustrating stat that we've been level or ahead in the last quarter of every game.

I also like using other clubs who have taken the journey before us as a guide, such as the Dogs.  In Beveridge's first year they were 5/5 from 10.  We can still be 5/5 from 10, or 6/5 from 11.  They went on to win 14 games and play finals that year (2015) even though they lost to Brisbane in round 23.  Brisbane went into that match with 3 wins and finished second last with just 4 wins.  So even a Luke Beveridge side that was about to embark on finals lost the last game of the year to a cellar dwellar.  We know what they did 12 months later.

It's bloody frustrating, but I still believe we can win 3 of our next 4 to get back on track.  But we have to turn up to play. 

They also lost to Freo by 20 points in Round 23 last year before winning the flag 5 weeks later. I agree, PD. The Dogs are a good yardstick and we resemble them markedly, both in terms of game style and lapses in games with a younger group. It's about learning how to win and learning how to play this way for four quarters. It'll come, but it's bloody frustrating, as you say. I reckon we're a real shot against Adelaide.

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Disagree.

Watts is more of an asset when he is roaming at high half forward/wing so he can kick the ball inside the forward 50. Marking isn't his strength, so playing him at FF is useless. You might as well play Jeffy at FF for the same return.

Watts is the perfect third tall. Sadly we don't have a second tall at the moment to play a true CHF role. I think Weids will be good there once he eats 98986 burgers. 

Hogan is a CHF. No doubt. But he's no mug deep either and showed it at times yesterday. It's all about ball movement. If we can get 1v1s, Hogan and Watts can rotate between FF and CHF comfortably. Problem is, we're not moving the ball fast enough. This is partly a minus-Max situation. I'd expect us to have greater opponent separation and a seemingly more functional forwardline in the second half of the year when Max returns.

[demoniac 1,243]

First bounce of last quarter.

As Umpire gets in position to bounce ball Viney is next to Burgoyne on Hawthorn's side of centre bounce.

Umpire bounces ball and Viney moves away from Burgoyne to drop of the ball.

Burgoyne does not move.

Viney does not win contest.

Ball comes to unmarked Burgoyne who turns and under no pressure kicks to Roughead's advantage.

Roughead goals.

Am i mad to think Viney's role was to stick with Burgoyne?

[Sir Why You Little 34,688]

18 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Similar to what  I have been saying for a long time. What irks me is posters blaming our problems on fringe and developing players. This is a team psychology problem caused by decades of underachieving and damaged leadership. We have a top 2 team here that needs to shed its demons to progress.

Yes. We said exactly the same thing in 2010 with Bails and we all saw what happened. 

Goodwin has got to hold his nerve right now. 

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,098]

I`m surprised at how calm I am these days after such frustrating losses, it is something that used to rile me no end but it has happened so many times particularly the last decade that it simply doesnt surprise anymore.

One thing that REALLY pi$$es me off though is hearing Goodwin saying that he questioned their attitude for this match. How pathetic has our leadership become to allow this to happen. I am more than happy to cop a loss when we have busted a gut for 4 quarters BUT we will never go anywhere as a club until this crap is rectified.

[John Crow Batty 8,276]

24 minutes ago, A F said:

They also lost to Freo by 20 points in Round 23 last year before winning the flag 5 weeks later. I agree, PD. The Dogs are a good yardstick and we resemble them markedly, both in terms of game style and lapses in games with a younger group. It's about learning how to win and learning how to play this way for four quarters. It'll come, but it's bloody frustrating, as you say. I reckon we're a real shot against Adelaide.

 

The dogs tanked that game. They had nothing to gain or lose ladder wise by busting their guts on the road and rested I believe five players. A flag winning strategy.

Edited May 8, 2017 by america de cali

[Macca 16,173]

6 minutes ago, A F said:

Hogan is a CHF. No doubt. But he's no mug deep either and showed it at times yesterday. It's all about ball movement. If we can get 1v1s, Hogan and Watts can rotate between FF and CHF comfortably. Problem is, we're not moving the ball fast enough. This is partly a minus-Max situation. I'd expect us to have greater opponent separation and a seemingly more functional forwardline in the second half of the year when Max returns.

Spencer will be back a lot earlier than Max and Jake can be a key component until Gawn does return.  In fact, if Spencer had have played yesterday, we win the game.  He would have won enough tap-outs to advantage to make a difference.  Even if it was just 5 or 6 more clean clearances from his taps.  We only lost the game by a kick. 

We also were quite inept in the first quarter and a half with numerous turnovers and fumbles.  No excuses for that happening but the rucking issue remains problematical until Spencer returns.  They might give King a go but he seems a fair way off right now.

 

[Binmans PA 26,292]

29 minutes ago, america de cali said:

The dogs tanked that game. They had nothing to gain or lose ladder wise by busting their guts on the road and rested I believe five players. A flag winning strategy.

Yep, fair point.

[Chris 2,892]

After thinking more on game and being slightly more rational. 

Last week I though Viney starte working into some form, this week he started showing really good form, hopefully next week this keeps going and he shows it for the whole game like he did for much of last year. 

I also thought Tyson was starting to find form large week and I still think he is, just slower than Viney is. 

Vince is another who is starting to find some form but I wish he would stop the big blind kicks that seem to always end up with the opposition. 

I think Oliver is coming off the boil but I hope he proves me wrong. I think part of that is opposition attention, with the others coming into form that may change. 

Lewis hasn't impressed me as yet.

Watts had an off game but I am confident he will be fine this weekend again. 

Jetta does his job week in week out. Cyril and Poppy were barely sighted on the weekend.

Frost, Hibbert, and Hunt are doing well and settling in as a good team. 

Tmac does great things but......

Omac shows enough in patches that I think he will be good and is a more natural looking kick than his brother. 

Salem was a little off but is very good, but not in a brutish way, more in a finessing way. 

Hannon showed a bit in parts and I think will be pretty good but he is very raw. 

I would love to see Kent back in purely for his attack, but he must defend more.

Stretch is also missed as he generally makes the right choice and uses the ball well. 

All in all I think the team has been out of form and hasn't played to our potential in any game this year (especially the mids). If they do come on song together we will do very well. If not we miss the 8.

[george_on_the_outer 7,016]

1 hour ago, demoniac said:

First bounce of last quarter.

As Umpire gets in position to bounce ball Viney is next to Burgoyne on Hawthorn's side of centre bounce.

Umpire bounces ball and Viney moves away from Burgoyne to drop of the ball.

Burgoyne does not move.

Viney does not win contest.

Ball comes to unmarked Burgoyne who turns and under no pressure kicks to Roughead's advantage.

Roughead goals.

Am i mad to think Viney's role was to stick with Burgoyne?

It was more than that.....Oliver was on Mitchell( I think it was) but was on the wrong side, leaving Mitchell and Burgoyne together, with the Demon players on their outside.  Guess where McEvoy tapped it?  One of them was going to get it and the other already in position to block. 

Just poor positioning by the Melbourne players to leave such an unguarded gap, and at such a critical point in the match.