Morton or Toumpas

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,522]

No, women are great.

But they'd get crunched in a professional AFL match.

Because they panic?

[Sir Why You Little 37,241]

Toumpas was never supposed to be a top player ...

Yes he fcuking was...

Stop writing this absolute draft drivel Macca

You are better than that. Excuses don't suit you.

[Ron Burgundy 8,585]

It'd be interesting to know which players other clubs would've selected at pick 4 in that draft.

I suspect Port were fortunate in having pick 7 in some ways, as Wines was an absolute no brainer for them.

I was happy enough with Toumpas when we drafted him - although, like everyone here, I felt a strong attachment to Wines, essentially because of the Jack Viney best mates factor.

Toumpas came in with what appeared to be top tier credentials and was always touted as a high pick. But he simply hasn't looked remotely like the player I had thought we had drafted.

Hugely disappointing. To date at least.

[Macca 17,080]

Yes he fcuking was...

Stop writing this absolute draft drivel Macca

You are better than that. Excuses don't suit you.

... er, no he wasn't.

Certainly not in my eyes anyway. He was just a top junior - that's it (so far)

Many top juniors don't make it in the big time. For proof - go back and look at any previous draft ... before 2010 to be fair as some players mature late.

I've got the facts, results and data on my side Wyl - you've just got your misplaced faith and hope in a poor system. Your anger and frustration regarding Toumpas is misguided.

Don't get me wrong, I still have some expectations but those expectations are tempered by the reality of the situation. Long ago (before we started drafting busts) I came to terms with our drafting process.

I'm not avoiding the truth - I just see the truth differently to you.

.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Macca

[titan_uranus 25,052]

Scapegoat is the term on this site and with Melbourne supporters that does my head in the most. Toumpas is not a scapegoat, Toumpas is a young player that has so far disappointed most.Time to face facts, and mark my words, if we don't cut our losses at the end of the year, then we will regret it.

Scapegoat is an absolutely appropriate term for what we as a supporter base do to some players.

The key issue with this side has been, and continues to be, that our senior players aren't very good and don't want to put in the hard work that is required. The result is that we are not able to develop young talent because they are being asked to do too much and expected to do more.

We are continually let down by Howe, Dunn, Jamar, Spencer, Garland, Lumumba, Vince, Dawes, and, of course, our other senior players before them (Moloney, Sylvia, Frawley, Davey, etc.), but our response is too often to spew vitriol at the kids who are trying to get a foothold in AFL football but can't because they have no support.

Some players at other clubs are capable of making it without support, that is true, but it is not the norm and nor should it be.

Our disgust with this club should extend to our 'leaders' and 'coaches' of the last 8 years. The fact we have had repeated high quality juniors come to this club, each rated by analysts pre-draft (I'm not talking about Cook or Gysberts here), but continually failed to turn into A-grade players, is a clear result of this. But we continually focus on the kids and let the established players slide.

[Machsy 2,858]

Typical crap thread from a typically crap poster.

Pathetic.

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

... er, no he wasn't.

Certainly not in my eyes anyway. He was just a top junior - that's it (so far)

Many top juniors don't make it in the big time. For proof - go back and look at any previous draft ... before 2010 to be fair as some players mature late.

I've got the facts, results and data on my side Wyl - you've just got your misplaced faith and hope in a poor system. Your anger and frustration regarding Toumpas is misguided.

Don't get me wrong, I still have some expectations but those expectations are tempered by the reality of the situation. Long ago (before we started drafting busts) I came to terms with our drafting process.

I'm not avoiding the truth - I just see the truth differently to you.

.

Every number 2 draft pick is expected to be a top player and most are, that's why they are taken at number 2 and not 72. Simple enough?

[Demon3 2,541]

You don't have to mention his draft pick number - it's what you're not saying about other lower placed draft picks which is the issue.

Where was all the angst over Tynan, Taggert, Davis and co? Hardly a word.

There is no denying it - we do judge young recruits according to their draft pick number - over 125 threads on Watts, another 100 on Sylvia. Trengove the same.

We drafted Jayden Hunt at the end of 2013 yet I barely ever see his name even mentioned here. Of course, he was pick 57. That must be why - yeah?

.

Ridiculous. For starters, Hunt hasn't played a game, so that's just silly. And I'm not mentioning the others because it's not about them, it's about Toumpas. Don't try and be to clever and read into something that is simply not there. Edited May 17, 2015 by Demon3

[Macca 17,080]

Every number 2 draft pick is expected to be a top player and most are, that's why they are taken at number 2 and not 72. Simple enough?

How do you explain all the top end busts then? (there has been over 100 first round draft picks that have become busts - including numerous top end picks) You need to do a bit of research - do that, and you'll find I'm on the money.

By the way, how do also explain all the top players who were picked late? ... Goodes 43, S Black 31, Chapman 35. Fyfe 20, Grant 105, Hird 64, T-Mac 53 ... etc etc etc

And I'm not mentioning the others because it's not about them, it's about Toumpas.

I'm pointing out that the draft is not an accurate guide so it therefore can't be relied upon. I see the same player as what you do - but I don't judge him by his draft pick number nor will I point the blame at the club, our recruiters or the player himself ... he is what he is.

Many here do judge by that criteria even if they won't admit it. And to say we should have picked someone else because of how he is right now is just utterly pointless.

Toumpas is a product of a bad system - a system that continually spits out poor and odd results. His output so far hasn't been great but I'm not at all surprised by that - mainly because I see the draft as largely flawed and somewhat of a lottery.

Anyway, it's a team game so it's never about one player anyway - regardless of whether we have separate threads about these players or not, context is always needed. We had more than a dozen poor players yesterday - why the focus on one or 2 players?

Think of it this way, if we didn't have a draft and Toumpas came out of our academy or zone, would we be talking about him in the same way? I doubt it. The draft pick number changes how we view recruits.

If you disagree - so be it.

.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Macca

[Bang Bang Bang 5,839]

The ball is like a hot potato when Jimmy gets it (and he doesn't get it a lot). No poise at all.

We drafted him for his 'elite' skills as junior. He is unable to execute these skills under AFL pressure. He can do it in the VFL, but the AFL is way too much for him. I'll be amazed if this changes.

He's not the first kid drafted early that has struggled with it. Morton, Addam Maric and Strauss were exactly the same. Elite skills that went to water in the AFL.

Terry Wallace did an analysis on first round picks over the past decade, I seem to remember 'inside' grunt players had a much higher success rate in terms of making it in the AFL than 'outside' players. I think we've learnt from our mistake.

As for Jimmy's future? One thing Mark Neeld did well was forget about previous draft position. He realised Morton and Gysberts weren't up to it and flogged them off for a packet of chips before the fans were ready to let go. Toumpas is out of contract at the end of the year, has he done enough to get an extension? Will he be trade bait? Is it too early to cut our losses? Will be interesting to see what happens. If somebody offers a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him then we should take it.

[whatwhat say what 23,104]

The big footy rumour is that Adelaide are into Jimmy.

If we got Lyons for him that'd be more than he's currently worth.

That being said, with Salem gone for an extended period he has a real opportunity to be the set up man behind play.

My fear is that his timidity, lack of tenacity, and poor skills when under a scintilla of pressure will once again let him down.

[Demonic Faves 39]

Yes he fcuking was...

Stop writing this absolute draft drivel Macca

You are better than that. Excuses don't suit you.

You are an absolute fcuk bag mate. how old are you?

[Bitter but optimistic 22,288]

Vitriol! Vitriol! And more Vitriol!

God I love Demonland!!

[Sir Why You Little 37,241]

You are an absolute fcuk bag mate. how old are you?

care what you think?

Sleepless nights..

[DemonOX 8,816]

Do we have to keep doing this SHITZ.

We know we haven't traded well but are getting better.

These type of threads are pathetic.

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,522]

I'm just amazed how many people want to get Cale Morton back!

[Biffen 12,949]

No. It is where the club is at....

Yesterday is History and tomorrow's a mystery hey cobber!!!!

[Sir Why You Little 37,241]

Yesterday is History and tomorrow's a mystery hey cobber!!!!

Yes

But this club is still in neutral...The 2 clubs who tanked blatantly are going nowhere...

[picket fence 17,741]

Cale Morton pick 4

Mitch Thorp pick 6

There's hundreds more examples of busts like those.

Tom McDonald pick 53

Adam Goodes pick 43

There's hundreds of other examples where good to top players were picked far too late.

How is the draft anything more than a rough guide? Every club (including his own club) passed on Fyfe - should we sack every recruiter who overlooked Fyfe? If the draft is accurate, all the recruiters should be held to account on this "mistake" alone .... x 200 other such "mistakes". That's a lot of sackings.

Toumpas was never supposed to be a top player - nothing is definite when it comes to drafting ... originally, he might have been and he could still be a good player. People here should have sold their shares in the draft long ago - clinging on to false hope and faith is largely pointless.

.

Yeah but we have made an "Art form" of choosing absolute Duds on a regular basis, Starting with "Diamond Jim Tillbrook"

[Biffen 12,949]

Yes

But this club is still in neutral...The 2 clubs who tanked blatantly are going nowhere...

but we can forget about all that and move forward I'm sure.

[Sir Why You Little 37,241]

but we can forget about all that and move forward I'm sure.

Would be nice but i don't think the Ghosts have left yet

The Dogs will carve us up next week, last summer they were in serious crisis...

[Macca 17,080]

Yeah but we have made an "Art form" of choosing absolute Duds on a regular basis, Starting with "Diamond Jim Tillbrook"

I think you'll find that Tilbrook was a mature age recruit but I see your point in that regard - for whatever reason we have often stunk at recruiting - but not always.

Around the time that the draft was originally introduced (1986) we had already started to recruit in a much smarter way (the Irish experiment included) and strangely enough, our original zones finally spat out a number of decent players (the zones were kept going for some years as the draft took hold)

We also have drafted quite well previously - no real A graders but there's a reason why we played 5 final series under Northey and 6 final series under Daniher.

We're just in a real lull right now and it's been that way for far too long.

Finally, I don't mind the criticisms that may come Toumpas' way - but let's make it fair and balanced. We had a number of poor players yesterday and Toumpas was certainly not on his Pat Malone in that regard.

[Gator 17,628]

Did I read that Toumpas was never expected to be a top player ? What drivel. The club knows it needs stars and it knows the importance of nailing top draft picks. It also knows it stuffed up, just like most of us. Unfortunately, it is what it is.

Toumpas is useless in a contested ball situation, which is not a great trait at AFL level.

No tackles yesterday was an indictment on his performance. Just as Tyson's 2 tackles and poor year to date is an indictment on how he's traveling.

[olisik 4,060]

Reason I made this thread was to put it into perspective how far back Toumpas is at this current point in his career and that we have some serious issues going on

Those of you who come here and [censored] 'dumb thread' I got news for you. Go and [censored] yourself and don't open the thread.

That said I hope we cut our losses soon and not end up with a pick in the 70s like we did With Morton, who to me showed way more in his first 20 games then Toumpas has. I've always liked the kid and stuck up for him but enough is enough. We need to be smart to get off the bottom of the ladder, not sympathetic

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,522]

If he's actually as bad as you say he is, what pick do you think we'll actually get for him??