Morton or Toumpas

[Macca 16,173]

There's a difference between the words "supposed" and "expected"

One word often emphasises an absolute outcome and the other word can indicate a degree of apprehension.

I used the word supposed in the sense that for many here, it's a cut and dried outcome.

A grade or bust

[olisik 4,060]

If he's actually as bad as you say he is, what pick do you think we'll actually get for him??

Hopefully 2nd or 3rd rounder

[3Dee 1,153]

just mental, kid has the skills

abhorrent negativity of demonland probably has something to do with it

Edited May 17, 2015 by 3Dee

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

How do you explain all the top end busts then? (there has been over 100 first round draft picks that have become busts - including numerous top end picks) You need to do a bit of research - do that, and you'll find I'm on the money.

By the way, how do also explain all the top players who were picked late? ... Goodes 43, S Black 31, Chapman 35. Fyfe 20, Grant 105, Hird 64, T-Mac 53 ... etc etc etc

I'm pointing out that the draft is not an accurate guide so it therefore can't be relied upon. I see the same player as what you do - but I don't judge him by his draft pick number nor will I point the blame at the club, our recruiters or the player himself ... he is what he is.

Many here do judge by that criteria even if they won't admit it. And to say we should have picked someone else because of how he is right now is just utterly pointless.

Toumpas is a product of a bad system - a system that continually spits out poor and odd results. His output so far hasn't been great but I'm not at all surprised by that - mainly because I see the draft as largely flawed and somewhat of a lottery.

Anyway, it's a team game so it's never about one player anyway - regardless of whether we have separate threads about these players or not, context is always needed. We had more than a dozen poor players yesterday - why the focus on one or 2 players?

Think of it this way, if we didn't have a draft and Toumpas came out of our academy or zone, would we be talking about him in the same way? I doubt it. The draft pick number changes how we view recruits.

If you disagree - so be it.

.

So you agree that high draft picks are expected to give us a better return compared to late draft picks, glad we cleared that.

[Macca 16,173]

Why are people here so convinced that a star junior will become a gun AFL player?

I've never bought into that concept ... and the results from the drafts continue to confirm my cynical view.

[Macca 16,173]

So you agree that high draft picks are expected to give us a better return compared to late draft picks, glad we cleared that.

Now you're twisting my words.

What I like to see is the whole picture ... many here prefer to see the draft in a selective way.

I'm not surprised though - most prefer it that way. It's an uncomplicated view and allows people to vent.

[Macca 16,173]

So if Petracca re-does his knee and because of that never attains even B grade status, will that be another drafting "blunder"?

Much like the Luke Molan pick was such an obvious drafting blunder (sarcasm)

.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Macca

[SaberFang 7,141]

I think it's increasingly obvious that the draft alone, in its current format, simply makes it far too hard in an 18 team competition for the bad teams to rebuild and get off the bottom of the ladder, especially because they keep losing their senior players to better clubs.

The AFL have created a mess for the poor clubs,all in the pursuit of expansion and money.

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

So if Petracca re-does his knee and because of that never attains even B grade status, will that be another drafting "blunder"?

Much like the Luke Molan pick was such an obvious drafting blunder (sarcasm)

.

Obviously not, just like you mentioned Mitch Thorp before an ex team mate of mine, injury prone and still is playing in the TSL, yes you could say that Toumpas had a hip problem when we first drafted him but has been injury free since, if Adelaide want him, let them have him, if we get a competitive hard nut who can hold a spot in our team in return then we will have won out from it. Edited May 17, 2015 by Henrietta Lumbago

[Macca 16,173]

Obviously not, just like you mentioned Mitch Thorp before an ex team mate of mine, injury prone and still is playing in the TSL, yes you could say that Toumpas had a hip problem when we first drafted him but has been injury free since, if Adelaide want him, let them have him, if we get a competitive hard nut who can hold a spot in our team in return then we will have won out from it.

I've seen people here take the club to task (and the recruiters) over the Luke Molan pick & the Trengove pick. All because those players dared to get injured.

Don't kid yourself, it does happen and it will happen with the Petracca pick if he doesn't come good.

[Macca 16,173]

.Stop writing this absolute draft drivel Macca

That's a laugh - you accusing me of writing drivel? ha ha ... why don't you take a good look in the mirror. I used to like you Wyl but if you insist on getting personal, forget it. You may think you've picked the strong suit but don't get too confident.

I've got a contrary view about drafting than many here - I can live with that. It honestly doesn't bother me.

I doubt I'll ever change many minds but that doesn't bother me either - my main motive is to at least get people thinking about the workings of our drafting system (maybe 10-15% here might bother) The other motive is to quell down the abuse that many of our top end picks have copped or are copping.

I see that sort of stuff as largely just venting and unnecessary.

[Deespicable 2,540]

Obviously not, just like you mentioned Mitch Thorp before an ex team mate of mine, injury prone and still is playing in the TSL, yes you could say that Toumpas had a hip problem when we first drafted him but has been injury free since, if Adelaide want him, let them have him, if we get a competitive hard nut who can hold a spot in our team in return then we will have won out from it.

Do you seriously think any club that has been following football, and they all keep an eye on players, would trade for a guy who is slow, has no major overhead marking ability, and can't kick with his left foot and plays an outside game and panics and ...

No we will get nothing for him, although I'm told he is a great bloke.

Unfortunately when Neeld, in one of his many acts of lunacy, said he wanted an outside player to go with Viney's inside game, we f...ed up completely and missed out on Wines. True, he had been a standout out at the U18 carnival, but why we weren't able to ascertain his pace prior to his injury remains one of the great mysteries.

Roosy and Taylor are paying the price for it now.

[WhyAlwaysMe 237]

Morton

[Sir Why You Little 34,430]

That's a laugh - you accusing me of writing drivel? ha ha ... why don't you take a good look in the mirror. I used to like you Wyl but if you insist on getting personal, forget it. You may think you've picked the strong suit but don't get too confident.

I've got a contrary view about drafting than many here - I can live with that. It honestly doesn't bother me.

I doubt I'll ever change many minds but that doesn't bother me either - my main motive is to at least get people thinking about the workings of our drafting system (maybe 10-15% here might bother) The other motive is to quell down the abuse that many of our top end picks have copped or are copping.

I see that sort of stuff as largely just venting and unnecessary.

Macca you said Toumpas was not picked to be a top line player (or words to that effect)

That is drivel...

Edited May 17, 2015 by Sir Why You Little

[Fork 'em 6,507]

I think even Toumpas knows we should have picked someone else.

No .... Toumpas wished we picked someone else.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Fork 'em

[Macca 16,173]

Macca you said Toumpas was not picked to be a top line player (or words to that effect)

That is drivel...

Wrong

I never meant it that way at all and I'm not sure why you would think that.

What I don't have is a default belief that a top order draft pick is going to be a gun footballer. That's a steadfast belief that I've nearly always had too.

If the draft starts spitting out perfect results, I'm happy to change my mind.

[Sir Why You Little 34,430]

What I don't have is a default belief that a top order draft pick is going to be a gun footballer. That's a steadfast belief that I've nearly always had too.

What you are saying is that anyone can be a recruiter and there is no science in it.

I have said to you many times that the first rule of recruitment is ATTITUDE (or it should be)

But you continually make excuses for players like Toumpas

The kid has no attitude apart from being Timid & Neeld & Co picked him with number 4

The system is fine. We the club didn't use it.

[Macca 16,173]

What you are saying is that anyone can be a recruiter and there is no science in it.

I have said to you many times that the first rule of recruitment is ATTITUDE (or it should be)

But you continually make excuses for players like Toumpas

The kid has no attitude apart from being Timid & Neeld & Co picked him with number 4

The system is fine. We the club didn't use it.

No... I'm not saying that at all.

How about I tell you about my thoughts instead of you trying to guess my thoughts and then putting words into my mouth?

Of course there's a lot of science to drafting but it's not an exact science. So, it's then only a matter of drawing logical conclusions.

It"s not that hard if you give it some thought

[Fork 'em 6,507]

The system is fine. We the club didn't use it.

Yes we did.

And we picked the same player we always have.

Thin, supposedly quick and squeaky clean over the competitive beast.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Fork 'em

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,154]

Yes we did.

And we picked the same player we always have.

Thin, supposedly quick and squeaky clean over the competitive beast.

So you wouldn't have drafted Macrae?

Disappointed we missed out on Mitch Robinson as a delisted free agent??

Everyone's a drafting genius in hindsight.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,122]

Can anyone describe Toumpas's point of difference as a player?

What will make him stand apart as an elite player vs a run of the mill AFL player with a 5 year career?

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

No... I'm not saying that at all.

How about I tell you about my thoughts instead of you trying to guess my thoughts and then putting words into my mouth?

Of course there's a lot of science to drafting but it's not an exact science. So, it's then only a matter of drawing logical conclusions.

It"s not that hard if you give it some thought

If you look at top 5 picks over the last 10 years, there is a fair degree of certainty that the club picking at these spots are going to get a substantial and above average contribution. I think it's fair to lament the possibility that one of our top 5 picks may not be of any value (FWIW I'm not writing him off yet)

[Macca 16,173]

If you look at top 5 picks over the last 10 years, there is a fair degree of certainty that the club picking at these spots are going to get a substantial and above average contribution. I think it's fair to lament the possibility that one of our top 5 picks may not be of any value (FWIW I'm not writing him off yet)

If you peruse through the following drafts I've listed below, I reckon you'll find otherwise.

Out of the 10 drafts I've listed (looking at the top 5 picks from each of these drafts only) I found 14 very good or top players, another 22 who were 'ok' or 'alright' and in terms of supporter expectations, 14 busts.

Some here would argue that unless you get an A grader with a top 5 pick, anything less than that (B grade or C+) is a bust. Factoring that in, there's a lot more busts than people realise.

It's still too early to properly evaluate talent in the drafts from 2010 onwards.

2000 draft

2001 draft

2002 draft

2003 draft

2004 draft

2005 draft

2006 draft

2007 draft

2008 draft

2009 draft

.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Macca

[Fork 'em 6,507]

So you wouldn't have drafted Macrae?

Disappointed we missed out on Mitch Robinson as a delisted free agent??

Everyone's a drafting genius in hindsight.

No .... Would've drafted Vineys best mate.

The kid who practically begged us to pick 'im.

And if nothing else Robinson provides something we don't have ..... Mongrel.

And I definately would've considered him .... I see he kicked 3 today.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Fork 'em

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

Do you seriously think any club that has been following football, and they all keep an eye on players, would trade for a guy who is slow, has no major overhead marking ability, and can't kick with his left foot and plays an outside game and panics and ...

No we will get nothing for him, although I'm told he is a great bloke.

Unfortunately when Neeld, in one of his many acts of lunacy, said he wanted an outside player to go with Viney's inside game, we f...ed up completely and missed out on Wines. True, he had been a standout out at the U18 carnival, but why we weren't able to ascertain his pace prior to his injury remains one of the great mysteries.

Roosy and Taylor are paying the price for it now.

Someone mentioned Adelaide were interested in him, I see him as worthless, but if we can get a player in return who can add something to our best 22 like a Newton from Port Adelaide then we should do it. Trade Toumpas and our second rounder for a player and their third rounder.