Training - Monday 9th February 2015

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

I think this was right, particularly when Rivers was with us. This may have had as much to do with coaching as personnel.

Garland is not a problem (top heavy) as he does match up well on small & medium forwards. He could well end up battling with Jetta for a spot in the team.

Anyway to paraphrase Rawlings it's good to have options.

Personally this is my backline Dunn, McDonald, Garland, Jetta, Grimes, Lumumba with Frost on the bench to rotate and let Lumumba into the midfield...that of course now opens the debate on where the hell do you put Howe, as the forward line looks good as well

Options, options, options

Edited February 10, 2015 by The Devil Inside

[rpfc 28,502]

Getting the ball out of the backline has always been about movement and workrate.

We have moaned for years about not getting the ball moving from full back. IMO this has never been about strategy - it has been about laziness. Our fullback has looked up and seen statues in red and blue jumpers. You watch the good teams - running patterns, leading over and over again until someone is freed up and then breaking hard to make the switch effective.

On the switch, it is essential that this hard work continues with the next option(s) up the field. Too many times we switch and the next player in line hasn't worked hard enough to get free. So the player with the pill stops and waits which turns off any advantage of switching in the first place.

We keep talking about intricate games plans - but the number one part of any game plan is work rate to get yourself 3 or 4 steps clear of your opponent. Free space ( gained by workrate) makes any game plan look like a winner.

It's not laziness but a lack of confidence in themselves and their teammates.

'I won't be able to win the ball if I try that'

'He wouldn't be able to hit me so I won't even bother'

It's been just amazing to watch incredibly self-confident men turn to water once they walk over the white line these past few years.

[nutbean 8,838]

It's not laziness but a lack of confidence in themselves and their teammates.

'I won't be able to win the ball if I try that'

'He wouldn't be able to hit me so I won't even bother'

It's been just amazing to watch incredibly self-confident men turn to water once they walk over the white line these past few years.

I agree you ...(I'll meet you half way - in the past it has been a combination of both - confidence and workrate.)

I will add to your above " I won't pull the trigger and kick it to my team mate who is a metre clear in case I fluff the kick". I have seen way too many good leads not honoured. Hawks pull the trigger first time every time.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

It's not laziness but a lack of confidence in themselves and their teammates.

'I won't be able to win the ball if I try that'

'He wouldn't be able to hit me so I won't even bother'

It's been just amazing to watch incredibly self-confident men turn to water once they walk over the white line these past few years.

It was both rpfc, a few players, no names, have admitted that they were nowhere near the required level of fitness till Misson started his program, don't forget he said it would take 3 years

The two way running was poor, both Lumumba and Garlett have come in and are showing the way, Garlett is already regarded as one of the best two way runners at the club, ever

But agree a lot was in the head, also agree what I am seeing at training needs to transfer to game day but with chatting to the players there is belief that what Roos says will work works, it is all very simple, he doesn't over complicate, to quote one, EVERYBODY is on the same page now, you look up and there are options everywhere

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

The two way running was poor, both Lumumba and Garlett have come in and are showing the way, Garlett is already regarded as one of the best two way runners at the club, ever

This is a massive statement of how poor the football club has been it true. Whilst I know players/coaches often use these throw away lines in order to pump players up to the media, it is well recorded that he was very poor at this at Carlton. It is difficult to gauge two way running when at training as opposed to a game so I will reserve judgement until then.

From the training I've seen Newton looks to be well ahead of Michie/young mid recruits fighting for the spot and I go as far as have him as our 3rd/4th best mid

[binman 43,056]

I agree you ...(I'll meet you half way - in the past it has been a combination of both - confidence and workrate.)

I will add to your above " I won't pull the trigger and kick it to my team mate who is a metre clear in case I fluff the kick". I have seen way too many good leads not honored. Hawks pull the trigger first time every time.

I'll add a third element - poor kicking skills, particularly of the half back where errors/turnovers are most damaging. Poor kicking means that in addition to the obvious (straight turnovers) players up field might hedge their bets to provide cover for a turnover, but most significantly players are not confident with the long kick, perhaps across the face of goals, to a player who has busted a gut to make space, for fear of turning it over. Really of our defenders only Dunn (and perhaps Garland?) is a reliable long kick.

Last season there was a number of times McDonald didn't honor the leading players, not because he didn't see them but because i suspect he was worried about turning it over. Jetts is an accurate kick but not a long one. And Grimes is nether particularly accurate or long (though i don't think his shorter kicks are as bad some make out).

Roos is working on this no doubt but it is good to hear that Frost and Junior Mac are both good kicks, whilst H is a serviceable long kick

Edited February 10, 2015 by binman

[praha 11,240]

It's not laziness but a lack of confidence in themselves and their teammates.

'I won't be able to win the ball if I try that'

'He wouldn't be able to hit me so I won't even bother'

It's been just amazing to watch incredibly self-confident men turn to water once they walk over the white line these past few years.

It's certainly confidence. Staggering seeing some players drop so far from 2010-2011 after we showed signs have confidence in those years. That Geelong match really just epitomises the whole last 3 years and it's no surprise it was the start of the downfall. We saw glimpses of greatness but on days where things weren't going their way they just lost the plot. That mentality eventually took over and, well, here we are!

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

I think this was right, particularly when Rivers was with us. This may have had as much to do with coaching as personnel.

Garland is not a problem (top heavy) as he does match up well on small & medium forwards. He could well end up battling with Jetta for a spot in the team.

Anyway to paraphrase Rawlings it's good to have options.

I agree with you RJay in regards to Garland with his versatility but I pose this question. If he can recapture his best form is there any aspect of Grimes game that is better than Garlands?

Jetta Frost Dunn

Garland Tmac Salem/Toumpas

I'm reading about these training drills which involve quick ball movement from one end of the ground to the other. All good in theory but come game day not so good with average of below average kicks.

[nutbean 8,838]

I agree with you RJay in regards to Garland with his versatility but I pose this question. If he can recapture his best form is there any aspect of Grimes game that is better than Garlands?

Jetta Frost Dunn

Garland Tmac Salem/Toumpas

I'm reading about these training drills which involve quick ball movement from one end of the ground to the other. All good in theory but come game day not so good with average of below average kicks.

To me Garland has more brain fades than Grimes.

Grimes turns it over more than Garland.

It is just my observation but Garland gets burned more often on the lead more than Grimes

[rjay 24,943]

I agree with you RJay in regards to Garland with his versatility but I pose this question. If he can recapture his best form is there any aspect of Grimes game that is better than Garlands?

Jetta Frost Dunn

Garland Tmac Salem/Toumpas

I'm reading about these training drills which involve quick ball movement from one end of the ground to the other. All good in theory but come game day not so good with average of below average kicks.

Good question....I think Grimes is a better ball winner, he showed it in his first few seasons where he racked up possessions. This will be the measure of a return to form for him, then of course he needs to develop his disposal although I'm not as negative about this aspect of his game as many are.

[old dee 23,792]

To me Garland has more brain fades than Grimes.

Grimes turns it over more than Garland.

It is just my observation but Garland gets burned more often on the lead more than Grimes

I had to smile when I read this nutbean.

I sat in front of the screen trying to work out which one was the worst overall.

That must be a MFC supporter mind set.

A hawks supporter would be trying to work out which one was the best.

Ain't life fun as a Dees supporter.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,084]

(Didn't think this was worth starting a new thread, so ...)

I was riding by this morning and spotted some of the boys training. Seemed to be only about 20 of them, broken up into 4 groups of about 5 each. One was doing stoppage work, often one-on-one, another was moving the ball by short kicks around the defensive 50, another was doing marking practice with mats, and the other was doing shots on goal from the boundary line. All skills based stuff, not much running (or at least for the few minutes that I was there).

[rpfc 28,502]

It was both rpfc, a few players, no names, have admitted that they were nowhere near the required level of fitness till Misson started his program, don't forget he said it would take 3 years

The two way running was poor, both Lumumba and Garlett have come in and are showing the way, Garlett is already regarded as one of the best two way runners at the club, ever

But agree a lot was in the head, also agree what I am seeing at training needs to transfer to game day but with chatting to the players there is belief that what Roos says will work works, it is all very simple, he doesn't over complicate, to quote one, EVERYBODY is on the same page now, you look up and there are options everywhere

Belief is a better word to describe it.

We have spent nearly a decade getting smashed early in years, games, quarters, contests - that isn't fitness. Not staying with PA last year a few times - that's fitness. The nonsense served up in the years previous to that was because blokes ran on the field convinced they shouldn't, and their teammates couldn't.

It's looks anemic but it's just a lack of belief.

I applaud the fitness gains but I will be excited when I see a string of 'unconscious' touches in a forward direction in Rd 1 as they 'know' exactly what their teammates want, believe they can get it to them, and believe they can actually do something with it when they get it.

[Its Time for Another 4,225]

Getting the ball out of the backline has always been about movement and workrate.

We have moaned for years about not getting the ball moving from full back. IMO this has never been about strategy - it has been about laziness. Our fullback has looked up and seen statues in red and blue jumpers. You watch the good teams - running patterns, leading over and over again until someone is freed up and then breaking hard to make the switch effective.

On the switch, it is essential that this hard work continues with the next option(s) up the field. Too many times we switch and the next player in line hasn't worked hard enough to get free. So the player with the pill stops and waits which turns off any advantage of switching in the first place.

We keep talking about intricate games plans - but the number one part of any game plan is work rate to get yourself 3 or 4 steps clear of your opponent. Free space ( gained by workrate) makes any game plan look like a winner.

Nutter totally agree with this being the problem but don't agree with the cause being laziness.

I think the cause was a combination of two things firstly game plan issues, either not having an adequate one or not knowing it well enough to know where to run ahead of the ball and secondly not having an AFL standard of fitness to be able to run on transition.

At the end of the day I don't think the fundamentals of the game have changed that much. I hate to harken back to the '88 GF but I just remember waves of Hawks running in numbers out numbering us all day. Numbers at and ahead of the ball is still the key to the game today. But in order to get numbers to run and carry the ball you have to know your game plan backwards. Roosy or someone like him said the purpose of a game plan is Predictability. You have to know if player X gets the ball on transition what exactly you have to do if you are behind him. ie run to offer a run and carry option or a series of players up field have to know I have to run to create an option. And the players around that player need to know they need to run to that position to create options for that player if they get the ball. And the next set of players even further down the field need to be anticipating all that and setting up for it coming into their area.

In order to play like this you also need to have the fitness to be able to run both ways on the transitions. I believe this fitness level is the major difference today compared to the past.

We clearly haven't known where to run to or had the fitness level to run there if we did. I remember watching M Jones in the Carlton game last year getting the ball in the back 50 on several occasions and not knowing what to do. He held the ball for a few second too long and then chose the only remaining option that was open but in those few seconds it became covered so it ended up being a turnover. Many people were saying how bad a kick he was. It wasn't his kicking, it was the lack of options up the field and then his inability to pick the best option immediately and honour it. That comes from Predictability and it sounds like this is exactly what Roosy has been working into them all pre season.

My litmus test for the improvement in the team this year will be seeing players like M Jones getting the ball and immediately disposing it to the best first option. That will happen because multiple other players down field know the game plan well enough and are fit enough to run ahead of the ball creating multiple options and because he knows the game plan well enough to pick the best option. People will be suddenly saying how much his and players like Grimes kicking have improved but it won't be that it will be knowing how to play.......I hope!

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,811]

I'll add a third element - poor kicking skills, particularly of the half back where errors/turnovers are most damaging. Poor kicking means that in addition to the obvious (straight turnovers) players up field might hedge their bets to provide cover for a turnover, but most significantly players are not confident with the long kick, perhaps across the face of goals, to a player who has busted a gut to make space, for fear of turning it over. Really of our defenders only Dunn (and perhaps Garland?) is a reliable long kick.

Last season there was a number of times McDonald didn't honor the leading players, not because he didn't see them but because i suspect he was worried about turning it over. Jetts is an accurate kick but not a long one. And Grimes is nether particularly accurate or long (though i don't think his shorter kicks are as bad some make out).

Roos is working on this no doubt but it is good to hear that Frost and Junior Mac are both good kicks, whilst H is a serviceable long kick

I'll add a possible fourth. Could it be that players are less likely to run away from their man when we get possession because they don't have the confidence that the kick (or handpass) will find its target? If they've run off their man, he's now free on the rebound and our player then feels he's let the side down. Or worse, our man is criticised by the coaching panel for letting his opponent get free.

If I played for a perenially losing team it would be hard to shake the mindset of being defensive and trying to stop your man from scoring rather than providing an option for the disposer of the ball.

[hardtack 10,547]

I agree you ...(I'll meet you half way - in the past it has been a combination of both - confidence and workrate.)

I will add to your above " I won't pull the trigger and kick it to my team mate who is a metre clear in case I fluff the kick". I have seen way too many good leads not honoured. Hawks pull the trigger first time every time.

I think you could almost be guaranteed that the flack directed at Watts would be a fraction of what it is on this site if his leads had been honored more regularly.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I think you could almost be guaranteed that the flack directed at Watts would be a fraction of what it is on this site if his leads had been honored more regularly.

On the other side of the coin if Watts was capable of winning half of his contests he is in he may get his leads honored more regularly.

I agree that he must be given the opportunity to compete.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Here is an interesting thought in topics, can we not say well so and so is a [censored] kick etc, yes maybe they were last year, but let's leave it till about Rd 4 and then we can see whether it has changed, saves the egg on face like Jetta from last year

I have been to every training session and I think both the two way running and the kicking has improved out of sight, but I have no idea whether they will make the transition into games, hopefully

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

Good question....I think Grimes is a better ball winner, he showed it in his first few seasons where he racked up possessions. This will be the measure of a return to form for him, then of course he needs to develop his disposal although I'm not as negative about this aspect of his game as many are.

Its going to be bloody interesting, I see Garland possibly fighting for a spot with Grimes as opposed to Jetta. In the thread regarding "bombers boycott" some have said we only need the two NAB cup games, I'm thinking we need the three, lots of unknowns in the team makeup and we need to give everyone a chance to prove their worth.

[binman 43,056]

I'll add a possible fourth. Could it be that players are less likely to run away from their man when we get possession because they don't have the confidence that the kick (or handpass) will find its target? If they've run off their man, he's now free on the rebound and our player then feels he's let the side down. Or worse, our man is criticised by the coaching panel for letting his opponent get free.

If I played for a perenially losing team it would be hard to shake the mindset of being defensive and trying to stop your man from scoring rather than providing an option for the disposer of the ball.

100% agree. I was suggesting something similar with players hedging their bets. But as you say it must be so hard to play attacking risky footy when you are worried about your man getting easy turnovers

[DemonOX 8,791]

I have been to every training session and I think both the two way running and the kicking has improved out of sight, but I have no idea whether they will make the transition into games, hopefully

This is what I'm waiting to c before I get too excited about the season.

Been there too many times before and I am gun shy.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Here is an interesting thought in topics, can we not say well so and so is a [censored] kick etc, yes maybe they were last year, but let's leave it till about Rd 4 and then we can see whether it has changed, saves the egg on face like Jetta from last year

I have been to every training session and I think both the two way running and the kicking has improved out of sight, but I have no idea whether they will make the transition into games, hopefully

Jetta has always had solid footskills.. His turn-around in form was nothing to do with an improvement in footskills..

No matter the improvement in our game plan, the increase in option presented, the fitness of the players etc etc, we will still see the same missed targets at times from the same perpetrators. That is a fact.

Nobody expects these guys to kick 50-60 metre bullets to receivers without breaking stride.. That's an exaggeration. Few players within the AFL have the ability to consistently hit those kicks and I don't know of one that we have? Dunn on occasions?

Our two best kickers in Watts and Vince make errors with their kicking also but most of the time they are players with an ability to seek and hit targets in the open and often. There's an element of inherent skill in that. And that inherent skill cannot be improved upon *much once at AFL level.

There were countless times last year I saw Jones miss easy 20-30 metre targets who were open last year. That will happen again this year, even if it's not as many.

The point in all of this is that Roos is working with who he has got and I have no doubt all of the things we're working on at training will help improve the overall ball movement of the side. But for some individuals, their skills will never improve to the standard required. For midfielders, it can be an issue for a team to have too many who don't have the required skill level.

Edited February 10, 2015 by stevethemanjordan

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

Jetta has always had solid footskills.. His turn-around in form was nothing to do with an improvement in footskills..

No matter the improvement in our game plan, the increase in option presented, the fitness of the players etc etc, we will still see the same missed targets at times from the same perpetrators. That is a fact.

Nobody expects these guys to kick 50-60 metre bullets to receivers without breaking stride.. That's an exaggeration. Few players within the AFL have the ability to consistently hit those kicks and I don't know of one that we have? Dunn on occasions?

Our two best kickers in Watts and Vince make errors with their kicking also but most of the time they are players with an ability to seek and hit targets in the open and often. There's an element of inherent skill in that. And that inherent skill cannot be improved upon *much once at AFL level.

There were countless times last year I saw Jones miss easy 20-30 metre targets who were open last year. That will happen again this year, even if it's not as many.

The point in all of this is that Roos is working with who he has got and I have no doubt all of the things we're working on at training will help improve the overall ball movement of the side. But for some individuals, their skills will never improve to the standard required. For midfielders, it can be an issue for a team to have too many who don't have the required skill level.

Another positive for Salem is that he was considered the best kick in his draft pool, the fact that he kicked the winning goal against Essendon last year just emphasises the importance of it.

[DeeSpencer 25,719]

Personally this is my backline Dunn, McDonald, Garland, Jetta, Grimes, Lumumba with Frost on the bench to rotate and let Lumumba into the midfield...that of course now opens the debate on where the hell do you put Howe, as the forward line looks good as well

Options, options, options

Got have Howe in. More than any other of those names (maybe besides Dunn) he intercepts, runs and moves the ball forward quickly. Lumumba might help with that, but the more the better.

Jetta, Dunn and Howe are my starters. Lumumba makes the perfect 7th defender who plays 60% back whilst each defender has their 10% rest and 30% on the wing.

Leaves 3 spots for McDonald (who's very likely), Frost, Garland and Grimes.

Of course everything changes if Garland and Grimes can recapture their best form.

And the option for Salem, Toumpas, Brayshaw, Terlich or even something fancier like Cross, Vince or Michie.

If our outside running midfielders (Matt Jones, Toumpas etc) don't step up and Lumumba is more use in the midfield then I'm all in favour of picking 7 defenders outright. Particularly if 3 big boys are needed in the side and Frost comes in. In that case Howe would be a definite swing man option, particularly when games open up late and he finds more space forward. Would coincide nicely with a ruckman being subbed in the last quarter. Throw a key forward in to the back up ruck and swing Howe forward. Frost as a 4th quarter 5 minute chop out ruckman would be another option.

I'm all for Roosy throwing the side around a bit more this year if we get more consistent even performance and need to make some moves to change the outcome of games.

[jnrmac 20,101]

We will kick better this year.

For one, we are fitter and fitness makes a big difference for most players in terms of their kicking. But more importantly, fitness and trust in your teammates and the game plan mean that your leads get honoured, players present more options and they are drilled better in what to do. Remember often you don't have to kick to a target but kick to the right space. A space is much easier to hit and if the teammate is running to the space as they are being drilled then it will look a lot like they are hitting more targets..

Already this year at training we have seen much more match simulation and practice like it was a game. Players are practising under match like conditions and will have confidence their stamina and game plan will hold up in real matches. They will be confident that when they have the ball in hand, a teammate will present an attacking option and another will present a defensive option etc.

We clearly have yet to see this in games but i do have a lot more confidence in the way we are training and that it will translate into games.