Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[old dee 22,946]

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

You have my vote R and B.

Sad part if your theory is true is that the players may never know what they were given.

I cannot imagine what that would be like.

This is a very sad state of affairs and Hird and company think they are being hardly done by.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,044]

You have my vote R and B.

Sad part if your theory is true is that the players may never know what they were given.

I cannot imagine what that would be like.

This is a very sad state of affairs and Hird and company think they are being hardly done by.

Agreed OD. Not knowing is the saddest part of this rotten mess, closely followed by the attitude of certain key players. To paraphrase Andre Agassi from years ago, certain people should use their riches to buy some perspective.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Once the pollies get involved anything can happen hardtack.

I know someone reasonable close to the Federal political scene they suggest that what the Feds don't want is notices issued that are challengeable in court.

They don't want to have to allocate more money to ASADA, in fact they would like to cut back.

My understanding is that as far as possible they only want infraction notices issued that are as iron clad as possible.

I will be surprised if the notices go ahead.

But hell I have been told things in the past that turn out to have been kite flying.

This of course goes against the core principle of british justice ie that appropriate resources will be allocated to ensure the rule of law is upheld. If it were otherwise, all the likes of Essendon need do to avoid being prosecuted is to threaten to take any prosecution to the appeals court and then the government withdraws funding to avoid a further court process. Under this principle, any crook could avoid prosecution.

But it is not about the prosecution of the Rule of Law of course. It is about the government looking after their Liberal Party mates who are closely associated with Essendon, and the Essendon Board, especially Paul Little, who is a major donor to the Liberal Party, or used to be when he was associated with Toll.

I have said on this thread many times that the only way Essendon will escape the rule of law is for them to get the federal government to make a special rule for them. Unfortunately I am becoming increasingly convinced this is exactly what is going to happen as the Abbott government appears to be so highly susceptible to vested interests of all kinds, and seems bent on nobbling ASADA.

[bing181 8,187]

I'm not quite sure people are really getting this. The only real rule of law here is the WADA code, policed by ASADA and applied by those who are signatories to it (AFL in this case). Abbott, Essendon, Hird or anyone else with a vested interest can think what they want, but at the end of the day, it's irrelevant.

In the Contador case (Clenbuterol), the Spanish Prime Minister came out and said that he was sure Contador was innocent, and he was then cleared by the Spanish cycling Federation (surprise surprise).

At which point WADA stepped in, appealed to CAS, and after a hearing he was banned.

[Whispering_Jack 28,023]

... and Spain had to accept the WADA ruling lest it become an outcast in world sport i.e no Olympics, no World Cup etc. As powerful as the vested interests might be, they will not be able to overcome WADA if it deems that the appropriate action has not been undertaken: in other words, if the WADA Code has not been upheld.

[sue 8,463]

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

That possibility did occur to me, but I dismissed it as an insult to Essendon's management.

[jnrmac 19,202]

Conversely, Its also possible that they did not see the need to keep adequate records. Sinister is a possible outcome but so is (incredibly) incompetent, cavalier and slipshod.

Despite some resorting to equation it's not proven on what we know as to what actually happened. I am hoping ASADA can answer these issues. If ASADA does resolve to issues notices then due questions will be raised why they have not did not interview Dank. I suspect that Workcover will wait for the outcome of the ASADA investigation. What would you expect Workcover to do above and beyond ASADAs remit especially when there is an absence of records.

Re the workcover thing, Workcover are responsible for workplace safety. For them to 'outsource' an investigation to a body that is focused on possibly different things is beyond belief.

Imagine your own workplace and the same thing happening. Its inconceivable that workcover would say " oh, we are waiting for everyone else to finish their investigation and well see what pops up. Evidence is destroyed, memories fade, behaviour continues etc etc A football club is a workplace just like yours and mine. It should be treated no differently.

What you seem to suggest is that that: a) Worksafe will rely entirely on ASADAs findings - which I find incompetent and disturbing; or, they will begin an investigation after ASADA has finished theirs. Either one is deplorable and different to how yours and my workplace would be treated.

And the absence of records we don't know officially about but workcover should be in there finding out. Not relying on some statutory body that frankly has not real track record of doing anything in the way of investigations. I mean, what skills do ASADA have in investigations? And if the records are missing them al the directors should be thrown in the can. Thats what would happen in my workplace.The point is clear. Footy is no different to any workplace.

Its a bit like the police saying, 'we won't investigate that murder because the immigration department is looking into the circumstances. We'll rely on their findings' Clearly wouldn't happen.

[jnrmac 19,202]

I'm not quite sure people are really getting this. The only real rule of law here is the WADA code, policed by ASADA and applied by those who are signatories to it (AFL in this case). Abbott, Essendon, Hird or anyone else with a vested interest can think what they want, but at the end of the day, it's irrelevant.

In the Contador case (Clenbuterol), the Spanish Prime Minister came out and said that he was sure Contador was innocent, and he was then cleared by the Spanish cycling Federation (surprise surprise).

At which point WADA stepped in, appealed to CAS, and after a hearing he was banned.

Thats wrong I believe. Worksafe Victoria have a statutory duty to investigate.

[jnrmac 19,202]

You are not the only one wondering about workcover. I think it will come. I think it is a matter of getting ones ducks in a line.

https://theconversation.com/time-for-ohs-regulators-to-get-off-the-bench-and-into-the-game-17039

That is a great article. I am going to write to my State member and lodge a formal complaint.

Oh and the guy that wrote was legal counsel for Workcover - he should know...

Edited March 5, 2014 by jnrmac

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm sure I have seen text's or statements from Dank who said while it was happening how much the injections were working. Rhino would I be wrong to assume these people would have been

measuring the doses and who was taking what so they could keep the cycles going to keep the improvements going?

Do you have a link to the reports Cards?

And who are these people you refer to?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Re the workcover thing, Workcover are responsible for workplace safety. For them to 'outsource' an investigation to a body that is focused on possibly different things is beyond belief.

Imagine your own workplace and the same thing happening. Its inconceivable that workcover would say " oh, we are waiting for everyone else to finish their investigation and well see what pops up. Evidence is destroyed, memories fade, behaviour continues etc etc A football club is a workplace just like yours and mine. It should be treated no differently.

What you seem to suggest is that that: a) Worksafe will rely entirely on ASADAs findings - which I find incompetent and disturbing; or, they will begin an investigation after ASADA has finished theirs. Either one is deplorable and different to how yours and my workplace would be treated.

And the absence of records we don't know officially about but workcover should be in there finding out. Not relying on some statutory body that frankly has not real track record of doing anything in the way of investigations. I mean, what skills do ASADA have in investigations? And if the records are missing them al the directors should be thrown in the can. Thats what would happen in my workplace.The point is clear. Footy is no different to any workplace.

Its a bit like the police saying, 'we won't investigate that murder because the immigration department is looking into the circumstances. We'll rely on their findings' Clearly wouldn't happen.

Your analogies are misplaced and you have mis represented my point or view.The issue of the supplements being given would appear to have administered at a multitude of locations not just in the workplace. There is significant overlap in the interests of ASADA and Workcover which may have been jeopardised had both gone concurrently to do there own investigations. Workcover may well rely on ASADA outcomes but would be free to further investigate. When the issue is the investigation is the existing of sports doping program associated with the ACCs investigation into the importation and distribution of illegal substances then ASADA is the best party to represent WADAs interest and investigate this.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

That possibility did occur to me, but I dismissed it as an insult to Essendon's management.

After what we have witnessed to date, I doubt whether anything could represent an insult to Essendon's management.

[daisycutter 28,636]

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

well if their objective was plausible deniability then that in itself should be damning, indicating a reckless concern for the players and an acknowledgement that the program was not above board

can't have it both ways

[Cards13 9,117]

Do you have a link to the reports Cards?

And who are these people you refer to?

Still trying to find the others I saw, here is a couple but it does not clearly have Dank stating the specific improvements, "just up and about" typoe stuff. By people I mean Dank and the people he was sourcing the cocktails from. They would have to have kept records on dosages, and the outcomes otherwise there is no real benefit and there one can assume a real risk to the health of the players.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/texts-reveal-stephen-dank-discussed-injecting-bombers-with-experimental-racehorse-drug/story-fni5f6kv-1226706049266

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-04-11/hird-given-drug-report

[jazza 1,323]

recent statements and developments suggest to me that the dons are ready for pain.

the president and coaching staff are hoping it wont be bad ,but they know its going to come by the end of next month.

never been a betting man,but im willing to put 35c on an eviction from the house.

the big fella will make sure the dons will survive,but pain is coming.

[hardtack 10,127]

recent statements and developments suggest to me that the dons are ready for pain.

the president and coaching staff are hoping it wont be bad ,but they know its going to come by the end of next month.

never been a betting man,but im willing to put 35c on an eviction from the house.

the big fella will make sure the dons will survive,but pain is coming.

It's a house of cards... and I believe it will come tumbling down in about one and a half months time.

[jnrmac 19,202]

Your analogies are misplaced and you have mis represented my point or view.The issue of the supplements being given would appear to have administered at a multitude of locations not just in the workplace. There is significant overlap in the interests of ASADA and Workcover which may have been jeopardised had both gone concurrently to do there own investigations. Workcover may well rely on ASADA outcomes but would be free to further investigate. When the issue is the investigation is the existing of sports doping program associated with the ACCs investigation into the importation and distribution of illegal substances then ASADA is the best party to represent WADAs interest and investigate this.

Disagree. But then it is an opinion forum.

[Lucifers Hero 37,207]

It's a house of cards... and I believe it will come tumbling down in about one and a half months time.

...probably just after ANZAC day match! AFL would plead/negotiate to hold off till then and given ANZAC day standing would (appropriately) get a sympathetic hearing.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Lucifer's Hero

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

...probably just after ANZAC day match! AFL would plead/negotiate to hold off till then and given ANZAC day standing would (appropriately) get a sympathetic hearing.

Do they still deserve to be in the ANZAC day match??? Is this a club that embodies the ANZAC spirit of honesty bravery and self sacrifice?? Did the diggers do 'What ever it takes" or did they operate within moral boundaries and a sense of honour?

Take ANZAC day off this club, the have brought the game int direpute and dont deserve it.

[ManDee 7,091]

dc I am not trying to defend the EFC in any way.

What I am saying just because it would be the correct thing to record information to determine if and what got results does not mean it happened.

I get the feeling that this was not done correctly from the start. IMO they were reckless, incompetent, cavalier and endangered the health of their players.

Until proven otherwise I don't believe they destroyed records because I don't believe any of substance existed in the first place.

It is not a case IMO of me believing whatever I want I just see no evidence or comment at this stage that they destroyed records.

Lets hope we find out close to the truth in the next few months.

It beggars belief that any organisation would plan to implement a program that includes administering 11,000 injections of various chemicals and have no records whatsoever of who got what and when.

In all seriousness I do not think that you believe this either.

For you to accept this you would need to accept that The accounts department at EFC are incompetent. The coaching department are incompetent, The welfare officers, players, medical staff etc. all incompetent.That no body in the organisation thought it unusual to be buying chemicals , paying to have them administered complete with signed waivers by players regarding the administration of chemicals, none of this unusual.

That no program existed to record or manage in any way the administration of chemicals to cherished players, the very same players that they monitor everything they eat or drink, the amount of sleep they get and try to maintain their health to the highest levels in society.This is what you expect us to believe?

No, you expect us to believe that they decided to bring in some quack outsider and let him do whatever he likes without records without supervision and bench marking, no control. She'll be right mate no we don't need any information no comparisons before and after no recording of possible side effects, no mate don't worry about they are just guinea pigs after all give em another jab or two, oh whats that in that vial give them some of that too she'll be right mate!..

Imagine a professional club embarking on a training regime, they do not record who trains and when, how far or fast they run. And this totally adhoc system does not attract the attention of anyone within the club. That no one at the club asked any questions.This is what you expect us to believe happened at EFC?

IMO they had records, they have vanished. What do we think happened to them?

2+2=4 I have no evidence to support my answer but I know it is true.

[Cards13 9,117]

It beggars belief that any organisation would plan to implement a program that includes administering 11,000 injections of various chemicals and have no records whatsoever of who got what and when.

In all seriousness I do not think that you believe this either.

For you to accept this you would need to accept that The accounts department at EFC are incompetent. The coaching department are incompetent, The welfare officers, players, medical staff etc. all incompetent.That no body in the organisation thought it unusual to be buying chemicals , paying to have them administered complete with signed waivers by players regarding the administration of chemicals, none of this unusual.

That no program existed to record or manage in any way the administration of chemicals to cherished players, the very same players that they monitor everything they eat or drink, the amount of sleep they get and try to maintain their health to the highest levels in society.This is what you expect us to believe?

No, you expect us to believe that they decided to bring in some quack outsider and let him do whatever he likes without records without supervision and bench marking, no control. She'll be right mate no we don't need any information no comparisons before and after no recording of possible side effects, no mate don't worry about they are just guinea pigs after all give em another jab or two, oh whats that in that vial give them some of that too she'll be right mate!..

Imagine a professional club embarking on a training regime, they do not record who trains and when, how far or fast they run. And this totally adhoc system does not attract the attention of anyone within the club. That no one at the club asked any questions.This is what you expect us to believe happened at EFC?

IMO they had records, they have vanished. What do we think happened to them?

2+2=4 I have no evidence to support my answer but I know it is true.

Don't forget Player Managers would have to be incompetent (not saying they are not....) to have been made aware of the injection from there players and not batted an eye lid either.

[Sir Why You Little 34,697]

Of course there WERE Records...It was a Supplement PROGRAM.....Start the players at Point A Mr. Dank and take them to Point B..

Ramp it up slowly....

Records still esxist somewhere...But they maybe in the "Too Hard Basket"

"Get Me the Good Stuff...We are playing Carlton this Week"...How would Hird not know what the "Good Stuff actually was unless there were Records kept????

Edited March 6, 2014 by why you little

[Red and Bluebeard 2,044]

well if their objective was plausible deniability then that in itself should be damning, indicating a reckless concern for the players and an acknowledgement that the program was not above board

can't have it both ways

100% agree, DC. There are mysterious aspects to this, but the blame is clear.

[ManDee 7,091]

Of course there WERE Records...It was a Supplement PROGRAM.....Start the players at Point A Mr. Dank and take them to Point B..

Ramp it up slowly....

Records still esxist somewhere...But they maybe in the "Too Hard Basket"

"Get Me the Good Stuff...We are playing Carlton this Week"...How would Hird not know what the "Good Stuff actually was unless there were Records kept????

Full and accurate record keeping is the underpinning of any business.

Blind Freddie could see that the EFC have disposed of incriminating evidence. Sorry to Freddie for using his name in the same sentence as the cheats at EFC.

So EFC, was everyone at the EFC so incompetent that they should all be sacked or have they disposed of the evidence? They are the options.. Mmmmm you know what I think.

Whatever it takes. Cheat, lie, put at risk, drug use, failure of duty of care, incompetence, blame shift. Whatever it takes.EFC

[Sir Why You Little 34,697]

Oh i am sure that as it was such a "Cutting Edge" Program that Hird or Dank would have employed a Gun I.T. operator to take care of all the records.

There is no incompetence here or oversights.

James knew exactly what was going on. The plan was to continue it all till last Christmas.

They kept F/:;$&@ing records alright. It is just now they have been "deleted" at least at the top level.

I am sure encrypted copies are stored somewhere.