Todd Viney Issues

[jackaub 1,402]

Wilson article in age mentions recruiting issues between coach and Viney.

Also says Todd will survive any cull and has long term contract.

If this is so another shambolic episode at the club. We cat even get the recruiter and the coach on the same page.

Viney of course is part of "the old boys club".

Perhaps thats a problem!

[Wells 11 4,840]

Viney came to us as a highly respected football person. Being part of the "old boys club" ...hasnt stopped hird and Thompson being a success at Essendon. We cant condemn him because he was a past star!

Neelds trading period was controversial and, as it stands now, a flop. Maybe Viney knew a thing or two and wasnt AFRAID to speak up. Looks to me that most of the levers Neelds been pulling have only been hidden trap doors to the cellar.

[Dr. Mubutu 694]

Was anyone >really< on board with all the off-season changes?

I, personally, will admit I supported the Pedersen deal, but was very skeptical about Rodan.

[jackaub 1,402]

I agree re Viney well respected and certainly not trying to bag him

But it appears that the lack of team work on field reflects the lack of field team work

Why is it so hard to hand pick mould motivate and inspire a group of coaches and managers

Where does it end?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Any actual evidence jackaub?

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

This is a concern if true obviously, but some of the ins don't strike me as wholly unsuccessful. It's the recruiting prior to 2011 that still irks me.

2012 - off the top of my head:

Draft

Toumpas was very highly regarded - I recall hearing somewhere that both Vineys were excited about his arrival - and both know Wines, even though this must've be a difficult decision.

Hogan - absolute no brainer.

Barry - perhaps paid too much in pick 13, but seemed to be part of the Jack Viney deal.

Jack Viney - again, absolute no brainer, but at pick 27 - a great deal.

Dean Kent - early days, but looks to be a good pick up.

Matt Jones - consistently in our best. Already.

Dean Terlich - same as Matt Jones.

Rodan - questionable, left field selection - but he was pick 287 or something similar.

Trades

Dawes - we now have a very sound forward line, on paper at least. (And backline too IMO - we all know where the issues on the ground are.)

Pedersen - Gysberts - was always nervous about this one - not in recruiting Pedersen as such, but that we paid 'overs' to get him. We need ball magnets in the midfield - and, as everyone here knows, Gysberts showed a lot early on in his career in this regard.

Byrnes - Rivers - Gillies - Moloney - can see the rationale for recruiting Byrnes - already in the leadership group, but losing Rivers for Gillies was a disaster, and losing Moloney for essentially nothing at all was plainly stupid.

IMO the bad stuff is really down to losing Rivers and Moloney for no adequate compensation (yep, I get the free agent stuff), but that's what clever negotiation and managing contracts is all about - they weren't replaced "like for like" - we just lost out, seemingly because of factors that occurred at the end of 2011.

Gillies is the one that I really don't get.

Pity we missed out on Hannath too - but I'm not sure this is anyone's fault though.

iPad typo

Edited May 13, 2013 by Ron Burgundy

[The heart beats true 16,450]

Why is it so hard to hand pick mould motivate and inspire a group of coaches and managers

It's a fairly common problem. Our issues are exacerbated by a genuine lack of on field leadership. We probably have 1 player over the age of 22 who is both consistent in his effort and is on the field often enough to have an impact. Most other teams have 10-15. There isn't a whole lot that any great leader could do with that.

It's easy to say that everyone isn't working, but I agree with what Jackson said on the weekend. It's really hard to tell what works when nothing appears to be working.

I'm slowly coming around to the idea that he should just challenge everyone to show us what they've got in 2013 in order to keep their job. I would have thought that it should be obvious that a bunch of highly paid professionals should be doing this anyway, but given the obvious management void that had been prevalent at the club then maybe establishing a standard and holding people accountable to it is all we can do.

[ThreeOneSix 953]

I don't think Viney would blow a fuse the club picking Rodan and Brynes with nothing picks.

GIven our lack of experience it would be hard to argue we didn't need experienced heads.

We only made one blunder in the draft, which was not taking Ollie Wines, that is the only glaring thing we got wrong.

Blind Freddy could see we needed ball getters anyway.

I'd like to hear the inside scoop on this one, it's the second time in a few months I've heard Viney and Neeld don't get along.

[Satyriconhome 9,993]

Viney and Neeld sitting next to each in the grandstand at Port Melbourne chatting away with the other coaches, don't get on, rubbish as per the norm for a Wilson article

Of course there are going to be disagreements about recruiting, I would be disappointed if there wasn't

This is a complete no story, think the only problem is as we were trying to get a 'new' footy dept up and running we didn't quite get it right, Peter Jackson will fix it

[Scipio 5,868]

I would have thought by now people learnt to disregard Caro's articles. She speaks absolute garbage and that article is a regurgitation of what has already been written in the last two days by most footy journos, only with a couple of fabricated stories in there to sensationalise it a bit.

[Grimes Times 1,278]

I don't think Viney would blow a fuse the club picking Rodan and Brynes with nothing picks.

GIven our lack of experience it would be hard to argue we didn't need experienced heads.

We only made one blunder in the draft, which was not taking Ollie Wines, that is the only glaring thing we got wrong.

Blind Freddy could see we needed ball getters anyway.

I'd like to hear the inside scoop on this one, it's the second time in a few months I've heard Viney and Neeld don't get along.

Their wasn't a recruiter in the land that would have taken Wines over Toumpus. We made the correct call then and now.

[rjay 23,968]

Viney came to us as a highly respected football person. Being part of the "old boys club" ...hasnt stopped hird and Thompson being a success at Essendon. We cant condemn him because he was a past star!

Neelds trading period was controversial and, as it stands now, a flop. Maybe Viney knew a thing or two and wasnt AFRAID to speak up. Looks to me that most of the levers Neelds been pulling have only been hidden trap doors to the cellar.

Only difference is they have both experienced success, one as a coach and player the other as a player. We need to go back to the Barassi era to find that level of success.

As for the article, it's not unusual for there to be disagreement over something like draft selections and draft order. The story at Hawthorn was that Buckenara was going to walk if they didn't pick Franklin, the discussion was so heated and the numbers stacked up against him.

However it does raise the question about how much influence the coach should have in recruiting when he would have seen very little if any of the players to be selected. That's why you have the recruiting department scouring the country and assessing the available talent.

[titan_uranus 22,657]

Caro's article today says nothing.

Read it. Then stop and think, what have I learnt?

You've learnt nothing. Nothing at all.

[Scipio 5,868]

I don't think Viney would blow a fuse the club picking Rodan and Brynes with nothing picks.

GIven our lack of experience it would be hard to argue we didn't need experienced heads.

We only made one blunder in the draft, which was not taking Ollie Wines, that is the only glaring thing we got wrong.

Blind Freddy could see we needed ball getters anyway.

I'd like to hear the inside scoop on this one, it's the second time in a few months I've heard Viney and Neeld don't get along.

People seem to act like we made a huge error selecting Rodan and Byrnes but the fact is we needed experience and there wasn't much else on offer. Byrnes has been horribly inconsistent and while he has been completely missing from games has played pretty well in a couple. Rodan... well he is probably there for off field leadership more than anything as the club knew his injury history and the state of his body but there is still the rest of the season for him to show a bit on the field.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Their wasn't a recruiter in the land that would have taken Wines over Toumpus. We made the correct call then and now.

I've seen nothing from Toumpas at AFL level yet to suggest he will be better than Wines.

[titan_uranus 22,657]

I've seen nothing from Toumpas at AFL level yet to suggest he will be better than Wines.

That doesn't mean he won't be better than Wines.

This kind of myopic, MFCSS view doesn't help anyone.

[rjay 23,968]

That doesn't mean he won't be better than Wines.

This kind of myopic, MFCSS view doesn't help anyone.

I understand what you are saying but recent past history leads to this kind of thinking. Watts/NikNat, Gysberts/Talia/Jetta/Fyfe/Carlisle

[dee-luded 2,958]

This is a concern if true obviously, but some of the ins don't strike me as wholly unsuccessful. It's the recruiting prior to 2011 that still irks me.

2012 - off the top of my head:

Draft

Toumpas was very highly regarded - I recall hearing somewhere that both Vineys were excited about his arrival - and both know Wines, even though this must've be a difficult decision.

Hogan - absolute no brainer.

Barry - perhaps paid too much in pick 13, but seemed to be part of the Jack Viney deal.

Jack Viney - again, absolute no brainer, but at pick 27 - a great deal.

Dean Kent - early days, but looks to be a good pick up.

Matt Jones - consistently in our best. Already.

Dean Terlich - same as Matt Jones.

Rodan - questionable, left field selection - but he was pick 287 or something similar.

Trades

Dawes - we now have a very sound forward line, on paper at least. (And backline too IMO - we all know where the issues on the ground are.)

Pedersen - Gysberts - was always nervous about this one - not in recruiting Pedersen as such, but that we paid 'overs' to get him. We need ball magnets in the midfield - and, as everyone here knows, Gysberts showed a lot early on in his career in this regard.

Byrnes - Rivers - Gillies - Moloney - can see the rationale for recruiting Byrnes - already in the leadership group, but losing Rivers for Gillies was a disaster, and losing Moloney for essentially nothing at all was plainly stupid.

IMO the bad stuff is really down to losing Rivers and Moloney for no adequate compensation (yep, I get the free agent stuff), but that's what clever negotiation and managing contracts is all about - they weren't replaced "like for like" - we just lost out, seemingly because of factors that occurred at the end of 2011.

Gillies is the one that I really don't get.

Pity we missed out on Hannath too - but I'm not sure this is anyone's fault though.

iPad typo

Pederson for gysberts???? Pederson is a swingman with possible upside, & can be a strong mobile 3rd marking target. not seen his true game yet. gysberts didn't want to run or train...

Gillies for Rivers??? you not seeing straight. Gillies isn't a swap for Rivers. More likely, will be the replacement for JMac, this year.

Rivers replacement is Garland.. playing his role with Tommy Macdonald playing the 2nd defender. Watts playing the link man out. so Watts & Garland combining many of Rivs skills + some, kicking...

[Longsufferingnomore 1,484]

How can anyone take CW seriously. Only another opportunity to stick the boot into CS.

[reynolds46 823]

Caro's article was just another attempt to take a swipe at Cameron Schwab and blame him for evrything wrong at the MFC. She is a day late at adding her two cents to the glut of articles post mortems and obituaries stemming from another dismal weekend

Edited May 14, 2013 by reynolds46

[monoccular 16,288]

Wilson article in age mentions recruiting issues between coach and Viney.

Also says Todd will survive any cull and has long term contract.

If this is so another shambolic episode at the club. We cat even get the recruiter and the coach on the same page.

Viney of course is part of "the old boys club".

Perhaps thats a problem!

A shambolic episode.........because Caro says so?? ;-)))

[titan_uranus 22,657]

I understand what you are saying but recent past history leads to this kind of thinking. Watts/NikNat, Gysberts/Talia/Jetta/Fyfe/Carlisle

That's not what CB said, though. He said that he's seen nothing from Toumpas to suggest he'll be better than Wines.

Whatever he's seen, that conclusion can't be drawn at this time. That has nothing to do with our previous drafting history and everything to do with MFCSS/myopia/stupidity.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Viney came to us as a highly respected football person. Being part of the "old boys club" ...hasnt stopped hird and Thompson being a success at Essendon. We cant condemn him because he was a past star!

Neelds trading period was controversial and, as it stands now, a flop. Maybe Viney knew a thing or two and wasnt AFRAID to speak up. Looks to me that most of the levers Neelds been pulling have only been hidden trap doors to the cellar.

Bomba proved his point to Hird after Yr 1.

Then they worked better together...

# Now if you bring in a New Coach & team,,, & the New Coach Identifies that a part of the problem is the 'old culture', & the old boys are unknowingly maintaining it, then what do you do, when the new coach tries to implement changes, & the "old Boy" doesn't agree, & causes frictions, & conflict amongst the inner sanctum?

What do you reckon would happen, & how would it appear 'Onfield'??? would it appear united or divided, & distracted onfield?

* you can't have half a coach, & someone else trying to steer the ship from behind them...

get out of the way, & let the chosen coach do what he knows.

.

[hardtack 10,127]

I understand what you are saying but recent past history leads to this kind of thinking. Watts/NikNat, Gysberts/Talia/Jetta/Fyfe/Carlisle

But I'm sure if we went back through the recruiting at every club, we would probably find similar stories. And for every failed top draft pick, there is a success story with a lowly draft pick.

[rjay 23,968]

That's not what CB said, though. He said that he's seen nothing from Toumpas to suggest he'll be better than Wines.

Whatever he's seen, that conclusion can't be drawn at this time. That has nothing to do with our previous drafting history and everything to do with MFCSS/myopia/stupidity.

But I'm sure if we went back through the recruiting at every club, we would probably find similar stories. And for every failed top draft pick, there is a success story with a lowly draft pick.

Maybe understand what I'm saying. A lot of pressure will come on Toumpas unfairly because of these mistakes, we are jumping at shadows and that is understandable because of the current performance linked with past mistakes. The myopia has everything to do with past drafting history.