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Posted (edited)

Chuck it the bin and revert to 2023 with a dash of composure.

We won 7 of our last 8 home and away games, with the one loss decided by an inconclusive goal umpiring call against a prelim finalist.

Dominated the inside 50's by +32 against the Pies in week 1 finals which is surely a win in 99/100 occurrences;

Outscored Carlton by 8 scoring shots in the semi final which in anyone's language is a 3-5 goal win any day of the week. The game plan didn't provide for Max Gawn missing a critical shot from the point post.

This year we are all over the shop.

We're showing wild inconsistencies within games.

We're losing stats we otherwise would usually win.

We're letting opposition mids waltz out of the centre.

And most recently we got outscored on turnovers by about 70-14 which we're told over and over again is a critical stat for success. On what basis does a good game plan allow for that kind of disgraceful discrepancy?

 

 

 

Edited by Bring-Back-Powell
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It has become way too conservative. There is no flair or run especially in the midfield.

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Our game style wasn't really an issue IMO. As Hoyne pointed out, if it weren't for inaccurate goal kicking (and we kicked to average), we would've won 3 of the 4 finals. He said in a 2023 review podcast that despite going out in straight sets, we were the form team of finals ironically. All we needed was to kick straighter for goal when it mattered. That's it. If we went at average, then we're premiers in 2023, and would've made the prelims in 2022. That's even considering the injury riddled forward line we were stuck with late in season.

I expect that due to the pressure of straight set finals exits, we've over-corrected on a gameplan that wasn't broken. If we simply reverted to what we were the past 3 years, we'd likely be second on the ladder at present. Hopefully we just revert and see what happens. Our issue is personnel IMO. We need forwards who can convert if given the opportunity. Fritsch is the only reliable one in front of goal.

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Posted (edited)

As I said on another thread, the coaches have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We only needed a few tweaks to our game plan to challenge and win finals. As Hoyney said last night, we won on expected score the last 3 finals, we probably should have beaten Collingwood and we definitely should have beaten Carlton last year. The coaches have overreacted and we’ve gone backwards. Time to go back to our DNA I say. 

Edited by At the break of Gawn
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Posted (edited)

It is a shambles, with mixed points of foci, limited teamwork and support, less run and carry, no heads/eyes up to hit targets, no space makers nor cleared forward line. Timing and anticipation is off with the pixies. Williams, in this regime, needs to have far greater inputs both in number and extent. Our reliance on too few for so much is ridiculous.

Edited by Deemania since 56
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54 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

As I said on another thread, the coaches have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We only needed a few tweaks to our game plan to challenge and win finals. As Hoyney said last night, we won on expected score the last 3 finals, we probably should have beaten Collingwood and we definitely should have beaten Carlton last year. The coaches have overreacted and we’ve gone backwards. Time to go back to our DNA I say. 

Agree with this 100 percent and the other posters.  We just don't have the skilled players to execute the way other teams do. It might work sometimes when the opposition is weaker or off. But under the pressure of big games and finals we need to do what we do well. Unfortunately our goal kicking is something that can't be trusted and doesn't matter what game plan you use to get the shots

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We have our own data scientists that give us all the same numbers champion data see. They know all the key areas you need to be the top 1 or 2 in to win a premiership and yet here we are doing what exactly? trying to reinvent the wheel? What are they actually discussing week to week when they say they need to work on things and improve them? because whatever they're doing is not working.

I disagree with the idea that if we just played the same away as last year we would be fine, because we had two seasons of a sample size to show our forward entries were going backwards. However, the drastic change to ball movement from our back half is doing more damage to us then if we didn't change anything.

We needed to be aggressive in the draft/trade period to actually go and get a proper KPF. A team vying to win a premiership shouldn't have the ghost of Ben Brown, two defenders turned forward and a 20 year old kid manning it's forward line. I'm sure people will say "well, who was available?", as if their aren't key forwards sitting in teams at the bottom of the ladder that wouldn't want to win a premiership. I am very confident Tom Fullarton wasn't the only key forward available last pre-season.

The other problem I have is our centre bounce and clearance work. It irked me last year when we stuffed around with the mix of players we put through there. I was skeptical pre-season when it was suddenly decided Salem was a midfielder. We are getting absolutely murdered in the middle. Oh and guess who our midfield coach is now? the coach that came from a team that used to sack off clearances.

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Posted (edited)

It's hard to tell. If we magically start doing better in midfield, I think everything will start to look better. How much are the midfield issues tactically vs form based? Difficult to say.

It's a bloody hard comp at the moment. Yeah WC have been trash for years, but they clearly put a pretty good game together on the weekend and would've given most a run for their money I reckon. 

Hope we can iron things out and pull away - we're in a pretty good position considering there's so many things we should be able to improve. 

Optimist in me says we can!

Edited by RedBlueandTrue
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This is a parallel discussion to the one in another thread ft. @binman, @Fat Tony and others, including me.

I think it's a touch disingenuous to now say "why did we change the game plan" when multiple times last year, including after the finals losses, Demonland was awash with "we can't keep playing like this". I also think, as @MurDoc516 has said, the way we played in 2022-23 contributed to the inaccuracy we had in finals.

Changes needed to be made to how we play. I'm just not sure now whether we've over-reacted, or our list isn't capable of playing in this modified way, or (as I think Binman would argue) we are just using this game plan to preserve bodies/fitness until later in the year.

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43 minutes ago, MurDoc516 said:

We have our own data scientists that give us all the same numbers champion data see. They know all the key areas you need to be the top 1 or 2 in to win a premiership and yet here we are doing what exactly? trying to reinvent the wheel? What are they actually discussing week to week when they say they need to work on things and improve them? because whatever they're doing is not working.

I disagree with the idea that if we just played the same away as last year we would be fine, because we had two seasons of a sample size to show our forward entries were going backwards. However, the drastic change to ball movement from our back half is doing more damage to us then if we didn't change anything.

We needed to be aggressive in the draft/trade period to actually go and get a proper KPF. A team vying to win a premiership shouldn't have the ghost of Ben Brown, two defenders turned forward and a 20 year old kid manning it's forward line. I'm sure people will say "well, who was available?", as if their aren't key forwards sitting in teams at the bottom of the ladder that wouldn't want to win a premiership. I am very confident Tom Fullarton wasn't the only key forward available last pre-season.

The other problem I have is our centre bounce and clearance work. It irked me last year when we stuffed around with the mix of players we put through there. I was skeptical pre-season when it was suddenly decided Salem was a midfielder. We are getting absolutely murdered in the middle. Oh and guess who our midfield coach is now? the coach that came from a team that used to sack off clearances.

MurDoc,

The question of "who was available" should also go along with "what are you prepared to give up to get one?"

We did have high draft picks but i thought we needed to get some speed in this team and look how Windsor has turned out.

Remember the uproar on here when the Oliver news broke last offseason and the notion of us trading him came up? The outrage on Demonland over that was crazy, so can you imagine the outrage if we traded out a Fritch or Rivers to get a KPF?

We asked the question of Carlton about McKay and had a go at Norton as well.

Im gunna get smashed over this one but about 3 or 4 years ago we had a big go at Tex Walker, this site blew up due to the racial slur business he was dealing with at the time but could you imagine him in our team for the last 3 or 4 years??

How many more Flags would we have won?

Just my opinion 

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21 minutes ago, Deestinga2 said:

MurDoc,

The question of "who was available" should also go along with "what are you prepared to give up to get one?"

We did have high draft picks but i thought we needed to get some speed in this team and look how Windsor has turned out.

Remember the uproar on here when the Oliver news broke last offseason and the notion of us trading him came up? The outrage on Demonland over that was crazy, so can you imagine the outrage if we traded out a Fritch or Rivers to get a KPF?

We asked the question of Carlton about McKay and had a go at Norton as well.

Im gunna get smashed over this one but about 3 or 4 years ago we had a big go at Tex Walker, this site blew up due to the racial slur business he was dealing with at the time but could you imagine him in our team for the last 3 or 4 years??

How many more Flags would we have won?

Just my opinion 

It's not just about trading for people. We are always prepared to pay a fair price. The hard part is getting players to want to move.

Which key forwards have shown any indication that they'll move lately? Pro footy players are very competitive and the idea of moving from a lower team to a higher team for an easy shot at a flag isn't as appealing as some seem to think. Barely happens - no one wants to end up like deledio. There has to be an issue - playing time/position, location or money. 

If a key fwd has one of those issues and wants to move then 17 clubs ask the question.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Deestinga2 said:

MurDoc,

The question of "who was available" should also go along with "what are you prepared to give up to get one?"

We did have high draft picks but i thought we needed to get some speed in this team and look how Windsor has turned out.

Remember the uproar on here when the Oliver news broke last offseason and the notion of us trading him came up? The outrage on Demonland over that was crazy, so can you imagine the outrage if we traded out a Fritch or Rivers to get a KPF?

We asked the question of Carlton about McKay and had a go at Norton as well.

Im gunna get smashed over this one but about 3 or 4 years ago we had a big go at Tex Walker, this site blew up due to the racial slur business he was dealing with at the time but could you imagine him in our team for the last 3 or 4 years??

How many more Flags would we have won?

Just my opinion 

Windsor has been impressive to this date, but if we used what we had available to us and the futures market that we couldn't have prized a Naughton or McKay out of their homes?

Your shout about Tex is perfectly reasonable, I wouldn't have been against giving him a chance so long as he did commit to improving himself like he ended up doing while still at Adelaide.  

The point is the club felt that what we have currently is good enough and I can't be satisfied with that. How can you make the list actively worse through the trade period when you're in a window to win a flag? (Note: I said trade period, our drafting hasn't been an issue).

Edited by MurDoc516
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2 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

As I said on another thread, the coaches have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We only needed a few tweaks to our game plan to challenge and win finals. As Hoyney said last night, we won on expected score the last 3 finals, we probably should have beaten Collingwood and we definitely should have beaten Carlton last year. The coaches have overreacted and we’ve gone backwards. Time to go back to our DNA I say. 

Yeah it feels like we’ve definitely thrown the baby out with the bath water, then drank our own bath water (that previously had the baby in it), and then West Coast gave us a bath.

Lots of bath salts over here.

 

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Is the game plan to get beaten nearly every 1st qtr?

Our first qtr percentage is 88%

We always seem to be on the back foot and reacting rater than dictating terms,

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3 minutes ago, RedBlueandTrue said:

It's not just about trading for people. We are always prepared to pay a fair price. The hard part is getting players to want to move.

Which key forwards have shown any indication that they'll move lately? Pro footy players are very competitive and the idea of moving from a lower team to a higher team for an easy shot at a flag isn't as appealing as some seem to think. Barely happens - no one wants to end up like deledio. There has to be an issue - playing time/position, location or money. 

If a key fwd has one of those issues and wants to move then 17 clubs ask the question.

No the reality is it comes down to money and opportunity. McKay playing 2nd fiddle to Curnow is hardly going to worry about playing with Brown, Petty and JVR.

We have Ben Brown on our books when he was cooked in 2022, we've only just now found use for McDonald after two mediocre years as a forward. Brayshaw was a killer in that he retired post the trade period but going for his money is written off as well. We should have the cap space available to entice these players.

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5 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Is the game plan to get beaten nearly every 1st qtr?

Our first qtr percentage is 88%

We always seem to be on the back foot and reacting rater than dictating terms,

To quote Christian Salem: "We wanted to get off to a good start after last week." "It was dissapointing we didn't get off to a good start today."

 

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Posted (edited)

I think it has less to do with game style and personnel and more to do with our lack of intensity and commitment to an all team defence within games. 

Edited by Rab D Nesbitt
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27 minutes ago, MurDoc516 said:

No the reality is it comes down to money and opportunity. McKay playing 2nd fiddle to Curnow is hardly going to worry about playing with Brown, Petty and JVR.

We have Ben Brown on our books when he was cooked in 2022, we've only just now found use for McDonald after two mediocre years as a forward. Brayshaw was a killer in that he retired post the trade period but going for his money is written off as well. We should have the cap space available to entice these players.

I'm pretty sure we've said the same thing but you've removed location. When was the last time a gun key forward moved between Vic clubs? Or even a serviceable one? Defenders sometimes - mckay last year an example at free agency. I swear it just doesn't happen.

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6 minutes ago, RedBlueandTrue said:

I'm pretty sure we've said the same thing but you've removed location. When was the last time a gun key forward moved between Vic clubs? Or even a serviceable one? Defenders sometimes - mckay last year an example at free agency. I swear it just doesn't happen.

It doesn't need to be from one Vic club to another.

In 2020 Peter Wright was traded back to Vic (Ess) from GCS for a future 4th round pick on $500k a year.  Out of favour with Dew.

JT was reportedly keen on him in his draft year.  I don't think we or anyone else chased him otherwise GCS would have got a better deal from Ess.

Wright has starred since.  We missed a trick there.

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2 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

It doesn't need to be from one Vic club to another.

In 2020 Peter Wright was traded back to Vic (Ess) from GCS for a future 4th round pick on $500k a year.  Out of favour with Dew.

JT was reportedly keen on him in his draft year.  I don't think we or anyone else chased him otherwise GCS would have got a better deal from Ess.

Wright has starred since.  We missed a trick there.

Yes - money and playing opportunity, the other 2 factors I said above (sorry not trying to sound smart - just saying that I agree with the sort of player you can get).

Hindsight is 20/20. Essendon took a punt on a speculative player that had the same 'lacks competitiveness' tag that schache still has. It worked out.

Same way we took a punt on brown. Worked for a year and helped deliver a flag. 

Point remains - very difficult and rare to get a readymade gun key forward in, you need to find a diamond in the rough or someone serviceable to play the role as we have tried to.

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Posted (edited)

The underlying assumption of our 2022/23 game plan is by sheer quantity of i50 we will kick a winning score while our defence keeps the opps to around 60-70 pts.

Only problem is the first part of that assumption hasn't held because we can't convert the chances and kick points instead.

imv that is a direct result of not having a tall genuine KPF. 

I doubt we can win a priership without one, regardless of our game plan.

Edited by Lucifers Hero
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, RedBlueandTrue said:

Yes - money and playing opportunity, the other 2 factors I said above (sorry not trying to sound smart - just saying that I agree with the sort of player you can get).

Hindsight is 20/20. Essendon took a punt on a speculative player that had the same 'lacks competitiveness' tag that schache still has. It worked out.

Same way we took a punt on brown. Worked for a year and helped deliver a flag. 

Point remains - very difficult and rare to get a readymade gun key forward in, you need to find a diamond in the rough or someone serviceable to play the role as we have tried to.

Wright wasn't speculative.  He was poorly developed and mismanaged at GCS along with others that have left.

BTW, $500k pa was a bargain for Ess not so great for Wright.

Edited by Lucifers Hero
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