Quarter by quarter analysis - is fitness our problem?

[old dee 22,944]

The talk from Neeld and Misson as early as January was that our fitness levels were diabolical, we're apparently being smashed during the week at training still, we're playing a style that requires more hard running forever, then a match day symptom pops up that could obviously be attributed to poor fitness? Nah, bugger that, their fitness is fine; it's just because they lack the ever elusive "killer instinct". Sure thing.

IMO Nasher you have neglected one ellement.

Skill, we do not have enough.

It does not matter how fit we become we just do not have enough quality players.

No amount of effort will cover that problem

[binman 38,732]

IMO Nasher you have neglected one ellement.

Skill, we do not have enough.

It does not matter how fit we become we just do not have enough quality players.

No amount of effort will cover that problem

I agree with this to an extent, it has been an issue that has long plagued us. However there is no doubt fatigue impacts on skill and decision making abilities (at least it does for me!). If we have an issue with skill, which i agree we do, fatigue will make it even more an issue, particularly if the skill problems are related to poor technique and perhaps even more so if the skill problems are related to decision making.

Edited May 30, 2012 by binman

[Viney12 196]

The talk from Neeld and Misson as early as January was that our fitness levels were diabolical, we're apparently being smashed during the week at training still, we're playing a style that requires more hard running forever, then a match day symptom pops up that could obviously be attributed to poor fitness? Nah, bugger that, their fitness is fine; it's just because they lack the ever elusive "killer instinct". Sure thing.

And the talk of Misson only a few weeks ago...here

"Right now Melbourne is using the midweek session to train hard. This is different to what Misson faced at his two previous clubs, where mid-season sessions were more often a process of ticking the body and mind over."

"A session like we had today where we are doing accountability drills, really strong, hard game running - next pre-season we are going to be able to do that all January instead of teaching structural stuff," Misson said.

"We are going to be able to have those hard running, hard spreading sessions [so] by the time games come along we are used to game running."

Important quotes as relating to our current lack of ability to run games out at the moment

[Nasher 33,131]

IMO Nasher you have neglected one ellement.

Skill, we do not have enough.

It does not matter how fit we become we just do not have enough quality players.

No amount of effort will cover that problem

The lack of skill could also be a function of the fitness and confidence, old dee. There are only a handful in the vicinity of our current side who I'd consider to be genuinely poorly skilled (Bail, Nicholson and Bartram), the rest I reckon will look better as the side starts going better.

I guess what annoys me about the other posts I've challenged (not yours) in this thread is when people resort to unmeasurable intangible vagaries like "killer instinct" after dismissing the more obvious and logical reason.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,249]

Trying to better understand our on-field performance this year, I've crunched the numbers. Does our scoring drop off as the game goes on? Do our opponents beat us more convincingly in the latter parts of games? If the answer is yes, the stats are pointing to us running out of legs.

Nine lamentable rounds: 36 quarters. Average scores this year for quarters 1-4 are 16, 17, 15 and 14 points, respectively. So not much revealed there, apart from an inability to score. Perhaps a slight drop off after half time.

More instructive though is the fact that as we get slightly worse during a game, the opposition lifts. They've booted on average 25, 32, 33 and 29 points against us. Most telling is the extent to which we are being thumped. We've been outscored by an average of 60% in 1st quarters, 90% in 2nd quarters, 130% in 3rd quarters, and have contained our opponents to 100% above our final stanza scores.

The verdict? I say that the figures show either we aren't as fit as opposition teams or we are simply more weary. If games lasted just one quarter, we'd have 3 wins by now. Conversely, we have not won a single quarter for the year following the long break.

We've played 36 quarters; we've won but 5.

Verdict: We need to get fitter. Alternatively, if training is too harsh at the moment, reducing the pressure may see us running out games better during the rest of the year.

The message

Welcome to the site hampton 22. You will learn very quickly that stats and logic doesn't get you very far around here.

[old dee 22,944]

The lack of skill could also be a function of the fitness and confidence, old dee. There are only a handful in the vicinity of our current side who I'd consider to be genuinely poorly skilled (Bail, Nicholson and Bartram), the rest I reckon will look better as the side starts going better.

I guess what annoys me about the other posts I've challenged (not yours) in this thread is when people resort to unmeasurable intangible vagaries like "killer instinct" after dismissing the more obvious and logical reason.

Sorry Nasher I did not twig till I read your comment again.

As strange as it might seem the games I have been to suggest that they are trying hard.

That is what confirms for me that we are serious short of skill.

Edited May 30, 2012 by old dee

[rpfc 27,570]

Sorry Nasher I did not twig till I read your comment again.

As strange as it might seem the games I have been to suggest that they are trying hard.

That is what confirms for me think we are serious short of skill.

It's hard to hit a target that isn't there.

Whether the players are unfit or exhausted from heavy 'loads' at training - the effect is that there is less 'spread' forward and back and when we have the ball in space we look up and see few players working hard to provide an option.

I will say that this was much better in the first three quarters against Carlton.

[olisik 4,060]

Has any1 in here tried to kick a footy when they are dead off there feet from not being fit enough, it aint easy. Legs are like cement and sometimes like jelly

[rpfc 27,570]

Has any1 in here tried to kick a footy when they are dead off there feet from not being fit enough, it aint easy. Legs are like cement and sometimes like jelly

Legs like cement and jelly?

I don't think you could have picked two elements so diametrically opposed...

[H_T 2,941]

And the talk of Misson only a few weeks ago...here

"Right now Melbourne is using the midweek session to train hard. This is different to what Misson faced at his two previous clubs, where mid-season sessions were more often a process of ticking the body and mind over."

"A session like we had today where we are doing accountability drills, really strong, hard game running - next pre-season we are going to be able to do that all January instead of teaching structural stuff," Misson said.

"We are going to be able to have those hard running, hard spreading sessions [so] by the time games come along we are used to game running."

Important quotes as relating to our current lack of ability to run games out at the moment

^

Important information this.

[DemonWA 3,468]

Legs like cement and jelly?

I don't think you could have picked two elements so diametrically opposed...

Cement is a fine powder so not that far away from Jelly....Concrete on the other hand........

[Chook 14,595]

Legs like cement and jelly?

I don't think you could have picked two elements so diametrically opposed...

Your legs are like cement when you try to lift 'em and run, but they're like jelly when you try to kick with them.

[drdrake 3,045]

I was lucky enough to attend a bit of pre-season training over the summer, what stood out it what we are seeing now,we only have a couple of midfielders with the running capacity to compete over 4 quarters. Jones was our most consistant runner through pre-season, he didn't miss a beat and this is showing in his performance, to me he is our only midfielder at the moment with the engine to remain in the game for 4 quarters. The other three have a bit to prove ability wise but Nicho, Morton and Bate are the only other players that consistantly ran in the top 2-3 groups. Trengove will be there in 2013, he is one that doesn't look to be coping with the current training loads.

We must give credit to Sam Blease, pre-season he struggled in the last group looked bad, over the past two weeks he seems to be everywhere, still a long way to go with him.

[Scoop Junior 2,992]

Good analysis Hampton22, thanks for that.

Obviously we have been well short of the mark this year, but definitely in the Carlton and St Kilda games you could see the players tiring in the last quarter.

In those two games the effort was really good up until three quarter time. Against Carlton we were smashed in tight but our ability to defend the spread was quite good for three quarters. This is essentially what kept us in the game. Then in the last we just couldn't cover their spread and because Carlton kept winning the clearances the game started to open up and they basically ran us off our feet.

I thought it was similar in the St Kilda game where we could barely move the ball forward in the last quarter.

Of course our skills are not up to scratch at the moment and we probably would've lost to Carlton even if we could've run out the game. But they wouldn't have opened us up the way they did and instead of a 58-point loss it would likely to have been a much closer hard fought 3 to 4 goal loss.

It will be interesting because we need to improve our fitness, speed and strength, so there's no shortage of work for the physical performance team!

[Ouch! 2,041]

It's hard to hit a target that isn't there.

Whether the players are unfit or exhausted from heavy 'loads' at training - the effect is that there is less 'spread' forward and back and when we have the ball in space we look up and see few players working hard to provide an option.

I will say that this was much better in the first three quarters against Carlton.

It could even be argued that with less run and spread due to fitness levels being what they are that players need to be even more precise as to hit players under pressure from opposition players that they have not broken away from.

A smaller margin for error means you look like your skills 'appear' worse than those of players who have a greater target zone to hit as the player they are hitting up has managed to spread more effectively.

[jimcor 212]

It could even be argued that with less run and spread due to fitness levels being what they are that players need to be even more precise as to hit players under pressure from opposition players that they have not broken away from.

A smaller margin for error means you look like your skills 'appear' worse than those of players who have a greater target zone to hit as the player they are hitting up has managed to spread more effectively.

That's probably right. I thought our disposals skills in the first three qtrs against Carlton were much, much better than in previous weeks. Balls hitting our players on the chest rather than being floated in overhead. A couple of horrendous errors obviously but fewer than in cement history.

[Ouch! 2,041]

That's probably right. I thought our disposals skills in the first three qtrs against Carlton were much, much better than in previous weeks. Balls hitting our players on the chest rather than being floated in overhead. A couple of horrendous errors obviously but fewer than in cement history.

I presume you mean recent history (Pre-emptive text?)

Cement history is very good though :D

[jimcor 212]

Who knows how to turn it off on an I pad?

[dpositive 1,555]

wasnt going to comment as I think I agree with most of the topics

Of course I have never played sport at elite level but have played plaenty of sports to my maximum

There is no doubt skill drops off as fitness falls. Concentration and decision making are skills affected also

There is an ability to rise and play "above your level" but this is very rare and certainly cannot be sustained.

In a team sport one players skills can be compensated for or exploited by alert team players. when confidence is involved and effort reciprocated performance can improve.

It is a complicated issue and one I hope the coaches are monitoring closely.

It may be an argument for using the squad and resting players after requiring them to use their maximum effort for a particular session or perhaps as many think it is necessary to continue to grind them on to build fitness

just hope we can see some improvement

[jimcor 212]

I presume you mean recent history (Pre-emptive text?)

Cement history is very good though :D

Yes. Good but hard, particularly in this setting.

[mauriesy 6,819]

The lack of skill could also be a function of the fitness and confidence, old dee. There are only a handful in the vicinity of our current side who I'd consider to be genuinely poorly skilled (Bail, Nicholson and Bartram), the rest I reckon will look better as the side starts going better.

Hard to believe that a team with 15 top-20 draft picks is "poorly skilled". I think fitness and confidence are more likely issues.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,525]

And the talk of Misson only a few weeks ago...here

"Right now Melbourne is using the midweek session to train hard. This is different to what Misson faced at his two previous clubs, where mid-season sessions were more often a process of ticking the body and mind over."

"A session like we had today where we are doing accountability drills, really strong, hard game running - next pre-season we are going to be able to do that all January instead of teaching structural stuff," Misson said.

"We are going to be able to have those hard running, hard spreading sessions [so] by the time games come along we are used to game running."

Important quotes as relating to our current lack of ability to run games out at the moment

This article should be pinned to the top of the board. Mandatory reading for every poster.

[Akum 2,660]

My impression is that this season we've given away a lot of goals late in quarters too.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Hard to believe that a team with 15 top-20 draft picks is "poorly skilled". I think fitness and confidence are more likely issues.

Interestingly tonight Misson said that while the MFC list is below par in terms of fitness now, he believes it has the capacity to eventually be a greater team physically than either of the successful Sydney or St Kilda teams he trained. But it will take a couple more preseasons.

The players are experiencing heavy loads now, so that when the 2013 preseason begins, they have a good base and will be able to hit the ground running (pardon the pun).

He said he's very excited looking forward to that preseason, and the work he'll be able to do with the players.

The heavier loads now are in preparation for that.

Edited May 30, 2012 by José Mourinho

[baysidedave 246]

definately fitness, drop bundle in 3rd quarter, totally stop dead in 4th quarter, fitness and it's the most frustrating thing about the year