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There's a lot of talk in the media about our supposedly struggling forward line and ability to score, one of the latest examples is this discussion between Tim Watson and Garry Lyon (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/07/04/the-only-major-concern-lingering-for-melbourne-ahead-of-finals/). And I, as much as the next MFC supoorter, would love to see us kick more goals from more traditional methods (lead and mark or contested marks by big key forwards), but I also suspected that this was just more of the media having selective memory about what we did in 2021. The numbers speak for themselves.

Goody said it'll be a finals type game, someone tell Gary Rohan

You may be new to Demonland and are unsure how to proceed or have been here for a while but still don't feel confident about posting on the gameday threads. I have prepared the following guide to make it easier for everybody to have their say while fitting in with the mood of the board. First thing you must do is take your angry pills and ensure that you post in a negative, pessimistic, illogical and reactionary manner. Defeatist is good, as is hysterical over-reaction, whining and sooking. Don't forget to assume the worst and always look for the dark cloud around every silver lining. As a memory aid, it helps to keep in mind the Five C's: criticise, complain, catastrophise, carp and castigate. For added fun, you might like to pick out a whipping boy and make sure to pot him at every opportunity. Here are some scenarios that may occur during the game and suggested responses. Other team kicks the first goal of the match. "Game over" "We're screwed" Other team wins the match. "Season over" "We're screwed" "Sack the coach" "The players are drinking their own bathwater" Player X has quiet game. "Recruiting blunder" "Should have picked player Y" "Trade him" "Send him back to Casey" "Delist" Player start limping. "We're screwed" "Out for season" "Sack fitness/medical staff" "Bring back Burgo" Player goes down into rooms. "We're screwed" "Out for season" "Will never play again" "Bring back Burgo" MFC player involved in incident. "It's Melbourne, they'll suspend him for multiple weeks" Opposition player involved in incident. "It's not Melbourne, he'll get off" Player misses shot at goal. "Such inaccuracy is typical" "Who's the forward coach?" "This will cost us a Grand Final" Melbourne kicks 3 or 4 goals clear. "We'll go to sleep now and rest on our laurels" Melbourne wins. "Should have won by more" "Percentage will cost us top spot" Poster is happy with win. "Stop embracing mediocrity" "We're getting ahead of ourselves" MFC is losing the free kick count. "AFL/umpires/broadcasters are corrupt" "They're biased against us" MFC is winning the free kick count. Do NOT comment under any circumstances.

I do. The most talented forward we have drafted since Hogan. Takes his share of hangers, an accurate kick, excellent forward craft, clean hands, good when the ball hits the ground, hard at it - and above all desperate to win the footy and is super, super competitive. Agree he is undersized for a key forward in today's footy. Micocek is not a bad comparison size wise, but he plays almost as a pure lead out full forward. I reckon VR's role in our forward line will be similar to fritters - start deep, lead to the boundary, but also get up the ground and sometimes play as a high half forward. To thrive, he will need to have two super talls beside him, as per AoBs explanation about modern forward structures, because the old school lead up forward is history (one reason why Hogan hasn't had the impact I thought he would). It's interesting you mention Curnow and McKay, because I actually think they represent a systemic weakness for the blues. By that I mean, the blues fortunes are completely linked to how well those two are going. Limit their impact and the blues have few other scoring options (their small forwards are pretty good, but seem to have dropped off a bit) - as we saw in their loss to the saints on the weekend. This creates a significant systemic problem, one the dees and freo are well placed to exploit - stop those two and you stop the blues. Our strength is our defensive system, which as has been proven is all but impossible to disrupt. The blues two strengths are their ability to win clearances and their gun forwards. The former is hard to disrupt, unless, like the dees, you have an even better midfield. But the latter is relatively easy to disrupt if you apply all team pressure on the last kick inside 50 and have a first class defensive system that uses sophisticated defensive zoning - like the dees and freo. The dogs face a similar issue with their reliance on Naughton- again as demonstrated on the weekend. Everyone sees the blues forward line as being the ants pants. And it has become fashionable to bag ours. Apparently our connection is terrible. Well you'd expect to see that supposed gap between the two forward lines reflected in the scoring shot/inside 50 ratio. Yeah, nah. Tha AFL average for that measure is 43.4% Carlton, with the forward line to die for apparently, is 9th in the AFL, scoring 43.5% of the time when entering their 50. The dees, with the supposedly dysfunctional forward line, is 8th in the AFL at 43.6% If you use the shots at goal measure instead the gap between us and the blues is even greater. The blues have a shot at goal 46.8% of times they enter their 50 (below the afl average and 12th on that table). The dees have a shot at goal 47.7% of times they enter their 50. The blues goals to inside 50 is below the AFL average (23), but better than ours, albeit not by a huge margin (22.8 to 21.9) - and the gap is probably explained by our method (ie so many kicks to the pocket). This delusion about our forward line was brilliantly demonstrated straight after the lions win. As I was leaving the ground, I was listening to the abc post match wrap. Not sure who it was, but he said words to the effect that, yes the dees were impressive, but he is really concerned about our forward line (Brown down on form, poor 'connection', low contested marks inside 50 yada yada). Our score to inside 50 for that match was something like 67% - 20% more than the AFL average. Against the team that coming into the match was on top of the ladder. The dees might have 99 problems (96 of which are related to Bartlett) - but the forward line ain't one. I think the cats have been smart how they use Cameron to avoid the issue Carlton and the Dogs (and arguably also the lions) face. And Hawkins has slimmed down and gets up the ground more than he did. It's no coincidence they top the inside 50 scoring ratio table, scoring 46% of the time they go inside 50. Stats from this excellent site: https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats_team.html

I love it, especially because even the waterboy is laughing at him!

Ben Brown has been OK the last 3 games I think. Much better than his previous run of games. It's difficult being the only key forward defenders have to worry about and it would be great if he can clunk a couple of extra marks per game but as long as he's not getting outmarked and is bringing the footy to ground then he's playing his role.

Hearing that May might be wearing a helmet to play on Hawkins. Too many stray elbows in the past....

Just saw this thread. Coincidentally just posted this in the VR thread: It's interesting you mention Curnow and McKay, because I actually think they represent a systemic weakness for the blues. By that I mean, the blues fortunes are completely linked to how well those two are going. Limit their impact and the blues have few other scoring options (their small forwards are pretty good, but seem to have dropped off a bit) - as we saw in their loss to the saints on the weekend. This creates a significant systemic problem, one the dees and freo are well placed to exploit - stop those two and you stop the blues. Our strength is our defensive system, which as has been proven is all but impossible to disrupt. The blues two strengths are their ability to win clearances and their gun forwards. The former is hard to disrupt, unless, like the dees, you have an even better midfield. But the latter is relatively easy to disrupt if you apply all team pressure on the last kick inside 50 and have a first class defensive system that uses sophisticated defensive zoning - like the dees and freo. The dogs face a similar issue with their reliance on Naughton - again as demonstrated on the weekend. Everyone sees the blues forward line as being the ants pants. And it has become fashionable to bag ours. Apparently our connection is terrible. Well you'd expect to see that supposed gap between the two forward lines reflected in the scoring shot/inside 50 ratio. Yeah, nah. The AFL average for that measure is 43.4% Carlton, with the forward line to die for apparently, is 9th in the AFL, scoring 43.5% of the time when entering their 50. The dees, with the supposedly dysfunctional forward line, is 8th in the AFL at 43.6% If you use the shots at goal measure instead, the gap between us and the blues is even greater. The blues have a shot at goal 46.8% of times they enter their 50 (below the afl average of 47.3 and 12th on that table). The dees have a shot at goal 47.7% of times they enter their 50 (10th and above the AFL average). The blues goals to inside 50 is below the AFL average (23), but better than ours, albeit not by a huge margin (22.8 to 21.9) - and the gap is probably explained by our method (ie so many kicks to the pocket). This delusion about our forward line was brilliantly demonstrated straight after the lions win. As I was leaving the ground, I was listening to the abc post match wrap. Not sure who it was, but he said words to the effect that, yes the dees were impressive, but he is really concerned about our forward line (Brown down on form, poor 'connection', low contested marks inside 50 yada yada). Our score to inside 50 for that match was something like 67% - 20% more than the AFL average. Against the team that coming into the match was on top of the ladder. The dees might have 99 problems (96 of which are related to Bartlett) - but the forward line ain't one. I think the cats have been smart how they use Cameron to avoid the issue Carlton and the Dogs (and arguably also the lions) face. And Hawkins has slimmed down and gets up the ground more than he did. It's no coincidence they top the inside 50 scoring ratio table, scoring 46% of the time they go inside 50. Stats from this excellent site: https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats_team.html

Well argued opinion piece here from Jake Niall on the Jackson and Brayshaw situations. https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-luke-jackson-shouldn-t-be-priority-for-fremantle-and-melbourne-20220706-p5azmq.html

Wrong. Hawkins was 23 years of age when he kicked 62 goals in a season back in 2012. This was backing up from a near BOG performance the year before in the grand final at 22 years of age. Even in his 3rd year at AFL level Hawkins still kicked 34 goals in 2009 Hawkins was far more advanced into his career then what what Weid is at similar age. I also think the comparison to Hawkins is a bit strange considering Hawkins was far more physically developed.

Our forward line performance is dependent on our pressure further up the ground more so than forward line personnel IMO. You could see vs Brisbane that when the defence and midfield is humming, the forward line takes care of itself. I think the forward line issues are an easy target for media pundits, but I reckon it will straighten out as our training loads drop and the boys bring more and more pressure on game day. Not an issue for mine.

In 2020 our leading goal scorer was Fritsch with 22 goals. We missed finals. We needed a key forward. We picked up a 200cm key forward with runs on the board. He played a key part in our premiership win last year and is currently on 20 goals for the current season, the second most for the club. Our 2nd key forward is injured and posters on Demonland think Brown is lucky not to be dropped?

He doesn’t need to ‘fire’ - he needs to play his role. No one else can with TMac out. That is his starting expectation and pass mark.

If that fat oily [censored] Hawkins tries injuring May again I give Viney full permission to break both his kneecaps.

I think Goody made a great point today in his presser today in saying that a lot of people are saying our forward line is struggling but we have had 37 and 24 scoring shots in the last 2 weeks

You predicting a plane crash Binno?

I agree, he looks lively and always a threat. He has a pretty good turn of pace and is not afraid to use it. I’d like to see what he can bring once he feels settled and is used to the speed of AFL. He is already managing a couple of goals a game and some decent pressure.

Like this. Adapting the forward line to what can work in the absence of TMac. And a show of faith in Bedford.

Geelong simply cannot afford to lose this match, we're already living rent free in their heads after last year. If we win again this time, we'll own the place.

I think our our goal scoring finals series last year is lingering long in the memories of pundits ... They want us to do that again, which would be fun, but I'd rather we did it in finals this year rather than now.

Yes we all commented on how good it was to hear the Cheer squad drowning out the booing and to hear the Lever chant was brilliant. Top effort from Our Cheer Squad in Adelaide .❤️💙✅✅

Eat a steak.

Does my head in that some want BB out and Weid in, what do they think Weid can do that BB isn't ?

That's simply not true. As if goody would pick a player who is not contributing

Love the change of course on the talls front, and that they’re backing Toby in. The development of Bedford and Jordon has been a real highlight this year. Can’t wait for this one.

Come on SWYL, you've been around long enough to know that the named team bears no resemblance to how they will line up on matchday. Might as well just name a squad of 22 these days.

Toby Bedford deserves a run of games. I'm delighted he has retained his spot

The Strathmore Hotel I reckon WCW! And you were loud. 😀

You forgot the 2022 rule; BBBB does anything other than clunk everything and kick a bag and you must abuse him for being old, past it, not tough enough, weak, soft and vegan (in no particular order)

The Herald Sun’s online page has a feature today highlighting the 2023 draft prospects. There are two players covered in the article of special interest to Demon fans so I thought we should kick things off early. The first is a father/son prospect who is the son of our Nathan Brown who played 146 games for the club between 1998 and 2007. A dogged small utility, Brown’s achievements included - Fourth Best and Fairest 2002 Most Consistent Player 2002 Second Best and Fairest 2004 Most Consistent Player 2004 Best Clubman 2005 Here’s the item about his son Kynan

I’m anticipating Gawn will play half the game forward.

I heard that every television viewer from MFC is turning off the sound for the whole game in protest for rubbish commentary .I also decided to get a texta for my screen as an added bonus, to ink out the maggots.

Hope Bedford & Kozzie take advantage of JEEElong's arthritis.

I think this is our best 22 for now. With the possible exception of TMac returning this is a super strong side. Let’s get the job done!

Was hoping for 65,000+ members. But nevertheless 62,813 (so far) is an amazing effort for the Melbourne Football Club. Congratulations to all those loyal Melbourne Demons supporters have have signed up! As I mentioned previously, I remember the days when we were happy to get at least 20,000 members. How times have changed and it just goes to show that you not only need to win Premierships but you must have sustained success over many decades to compete with the likes of Collingwood, Richmond, Essendon, Carlton and Hawthorn. I am hopeful that we are on the right track to eventually have over 80,000+ members in the future. But it will take time and more Premierships!

Please don’t talk to me about Melbourne’s lack of ruckmen last week at the Adelaide Oval. Or the discrepancy in the free kick numbers. Those things might have played a role in the way that the game unfolded but if you focus on them, then you are missing some truly significant pointers as to how the rest of the season is going to pan out for the Melbourne Football Club and in particular, on what happens on Thursday night when the team plays against Geelong at the Cattery. Here are some of the things that happened at the Adelaide Oval that should send shivers down the spines of opposing coaches. Clayton Oliver — after inking a playing contract to set up his career, he might have been forgiven for slacking off a little against a team in the bottom third of the competition but that was the furthest thing from his mind as he continued to amass a 36 possession game (a game high) with 13 tackles (equal game high) and plenty of score involvements. Clarrie is playing at a different level to the rest of the competition. Christian Petracca — after several weeks playing well below 100% fitness and spraying his shots at goal, Tracc produced the best ratings game of his career, kicking three goals, causing havoc with 11 score involvements and amassing bundles of contested possession. He’s back in town. Jack Viney — he might have trailed Oliver and Petracca (and Ed Langdon for that matter) in the number of touches but he’s been in good form of late and never drops his intensity and aggression at the football. When the game was still in the balance, he bustled his way through for the goal that finally settled the issue. Collectively, Oliver, Petracca and Viney are the toughest starting midfield at the elite level of the game. They're not just back in town — they are brutal as a combination of players. The stuff of nightmares for opposing coaches. Speaking of being back in town, Ed Langdon, who was almost lost in the bush after being subbed out with broken ribs against North Melbourne a month or so ago, has finally found his way back to the Bourke Street Mall after his 33 touches against the Crows. The modern day Demons have been good defensively but experienced a few shaky weeks in the absence of Steven May. Now that he’s settled back into the side and the rest of the key defenders are spending more of their time on the ground than in the hands of the trainers, they’re playing with that purpose again. Last Saturday’s effort in breaking the club’s intercept record was outstanding. There’s been some criticism of the Demon forwards but the two Browns contributed two goals each and the small forwards continued to bring their low possession, high pressure system to the game. With the likelihood of at least one, if not both of the club’s tall giants returning to the team for the Cats on Thursday night, the side is regaining the look and feel of September. The question therefore is whether we can gauge if the home side has improved enough to recover from the “wave of illness” that covered them when they were comprehensively smashed by the rampant Demons as they headed towards a premiership flag late last year. I’m not convinced by the Cats. They somehow have managed to score a sensational fixture given they finished top four last year. They have two major additions to the side that capitulated in the Preliminary Final, namely Tyson Stengle and Sam De Koning but the balance of the side are still old men who are going to be put under immense pressure. This should be even more so given that their most recent game wasn’t particularly challenging and therefore not much preparation for a top-of-the-ladder tussle against the reigning premiers. As long as Melbourne’s defenders can stay out of the way of the odd errant elbow, I think they have the strength and ability to hold the Geelong twin towers of Hawkins and Cameron to manageable levels of scoring. And if they do that, the Demons should beat the Cats by 27 points at at GMHBA Stadium. THE GAME

 Geelong v Melbourne at GMHBA Stadium on Thursday 7 July 2022 at 7.20pm HEAD TO HEAD

 Overall Geelong 132 wins Melbourne 88 wins 2 draws
 At GMHBA Stadium Geelong 40 wins Melbourne 19 wins 1 draw The last five meetings Geelong 2 wins Melbourne 3 wins
 The Coaches Scott 5 wins Goodwin 4 wins

 MEDIA

 TV live and on demand on Kayo and live on the Seven Network and Foxtel. Check your local guides.

 Radio - check your local guides.

 LAST TIME THEY MET 

Melbourne 19.11.125 defeated Geelong 6.6.42 at Optus Stadium in the 2021 Preliminary Final You couldn’t ask for more than a 14 goal win in a Preliminary Final, could you? Chris Scott sooked about his players being sick which demonstrated as much, if not more, poor form from the coach than from the Geelong players on the night. THE TEAMS

 GEELONG B: Z. Guthrie 39 S.De Koning 16 J. Bews 24 HB: J. Henry 38 M. Blicavs 46 Z. Tuohy 2 C: M. Duncan 22 J.Cameron 5 I. Smith 7 HF: T. Atkins 30 T. Hawkins 6 P. Dangerfield 35 F: B.Close 45 G.Rohan 23 T.Stengle 18 Foll: R. Stanley 1 C. Guthrie 29 J. Selwood 14 I/C: M. Holmes 9 S. Menegola 27 G. Miers 32 M.O'Connor 42 Sub: Q.Narkle 19 Emerg: F.Evans 31 M.Knevitt 10 S.Neale 33 In S.De Koning J. Selwood Out S.Higgins (omitted) J.Kolodjashnij (concussion) MELBOURNE B: H.Petty 35 J.Lever 8 S.May 1 HB: C.Salem 3 M.Hibberd 14 J.Bowey 17 C: A.Brayshaw 10 C.Oliver 13 E.Langdon 15 HF: K.Pickett 36 L.Jackson 6 T.Bedford 12 F: A.Neal-Bullen 30 B.Brown 50 C.Spargo 9 Foll: M.Gawn 11 C.Petracca 5 J.Viney 7 I/C: B.Fritsch 31 J.Jordon 23 J.Harmes 4 T.Sparrow 32 Sub: J.Hunt 29 Emerg: J.Melksham 18 A.Tomlinson 20 S.Weideman 26 In: M.Gawn J.Hunt L.Jackson Out: M.Brown (omitted) A.Tomlinson S.Weideman (omitted) Injury List: Round 17 Max Gawn - Ankle | Test Luke Jackson - Knee | Test Blake Howes - Foot | 1-2 Weeks Andy Moniz-Wakefield - Groin | 1-2 Weeks Daniel Turner - Face | 1-2 Weeks Joel Smith - Ankle | 2-4 Weeks Tom McDonald - Foot | 8-10 Weeks

Still remember around draft time when it came to this selection that I thought we were about to gain a steal in Jack Carroll who I was a big wrap for. Bit deflated when we overlooked him, but quickly jumped on board in support of Rosman. It was always going to take time with Rosman and while there is certainly athletic traits there, I too question his overall footy IQ. My thinking is there they're embarking him for the role similar to Joel Smith. Someone who is tall and got genuine speed to play on both talls and smalls. Not only is speed a big asset, but he's probably the fittest player on our list. Probably the perfect prototype player to play on someone like Jeremy Cameron. I think he'll get another year on the list imo.

Nailed it. Fraser’s athletic ability is there. Got good pace and size. He’s a long kick. Limited footy over 2020-21 and this year. Finesse and footy smarts not quite there right now. He might be one to drop back to the rookie list for further development to free up a major list spot but with the assurance of getting drafted back in rookie draft (not sure if clubs need to redraft any more or can place back to rookie list).

Needs to work on his tan as well.

Here’s something I prepared earlier. Guess which team (other than Geelong, of course) has played the most times at Kardinia Park this century? Melbourne. 18 times. Guess which team has played the least times? Collingwood. Zero. (Oh and Essendon once, Hawthorn and Carlton thrice.) The lack of integrity and fairness in the fixture is, to me, the biggest blight on our great game. What elite, professional sporting league in the world would allow such a discrepancy to occur, where an ‘away’ team, a so-called big club, doesn’t play at another team’s home venue for over 20 years, while another team plays there almost every friggin’ year? It infuriates me. It’s like telling Manchester United they don’t need to play at Bournemouth, ever, while Liverpool does. I am sick to death of the fixture’s inherent inequity, and our collective acceptance of it (or is it apathy). If we can’t have a pure 34-game home-and-away season (which would be fair and ideal for an 18-team comp), then let’s have a 17-game season. Play each team once, alternate between playing at home one season and away the next, no questions asked, no compromises entertained. Collingwood plays down at Geelong, it’s a sell-out, so be it. People forget that for the first 90 years of the VFL, the fixture was built on playing each team twice, home and away. There were 8 teams and 14 rounds in the first VFL season in 1897. This nonsense that we have to be wedded to a 22-round season no matter the number of teams we have is, well, nonsense. The 22-round season only came into effect when the league had expanded to 12 teams in 1925. When the league moved to 14 teams in 1987, the season inexplicably remained at 22 rounds. Now, of course, the fixture is a complete mess having strayed more and more from first principles, leading to the quite absurd scenario pointed out at the top of this post and illustrated in the attached table.

ENJOY!!

Cameron and Curnow are top 2 in the Coleman NOW. They were both excellent junior players, as was JVR, but until they started playing senior footy all they had was potential to be stars in the AFL. JVR is in his first season of AFL football and hasn't yet done a full AFL preseason. All he has is potential too. But there's not much skill predicting a player will be star AFTER they have become one. Don't get me wrong, they are both stars, but McKay and Curnow would face exactly the same problems Brown face if they played for us: constantly having to fly for the ball in big packs that include both two key forwards and often the resting ruck too super crowded forward line and therefore no space and no clear leading lanes (they both, like Naughton, get a lot of their goals from leads) lots of kicks to the pockets, meaning even if they are able to clunk a mark in a big pack of players, the resulting shot is from the boundary And if McKay and Curnow played for us, both would have to get much, much, much fitter to match the distances Brown and Tmac have to run every game. They would also both have to be prepared to sacrifice their own game for the betterment of the team. Brown and Tmac spend a fair bit of time well up the ground and running between the 50 metre arcs. They are often gassed when they get back inside 50, which impacts their forward craft, but it also means they are not going to kick as many goals as key forwards, like McKay and Curnow, who spend more time inside their 50.

Kids haven’t seen snow before so reckon it’ll be a play around in the snow for us. Then plenty of time at the Brewery!

They had a tummy bug, remember?

Another thing I'd like to see. "Jackson and Brayshaw sign as Dees for life".

And just for good measure

Biggest kick at the club I’d say. From what I’ve seen, he’s gaining confidence in his ability to impact a game. Also has that elegant knack of seeming slow but having lots of time. Just needs to get it more, and impose physically in contests.

Because of the fact that he was drafted during the pandemic with very little football behind him in his draft year and then again in his first year on the list, Rosman didn’t get enough game time to show what he’s made of and he’s still very much a work in progress. Such players deserve time and patience and I think he’ll get there.

The 'reasoning' for this would appear to be the large crowd drawing clubs don't play at Geelong because crowds would miss out. Also in the early part of this century these clubs were quite strong This hands Geelong an enormous advantage because they avoid the big clubs there, they play the 'weaker' clubs here virtually handing them 8 or 9 wins a year. We got belted there for years. So when people laud Geelong for being so 'competitive' year in year out it a crock of bulldust. On the other hand its probably why they fail at the pointy end of the season which isnt a bad thing. Either way though it is appalling that such an imbalance exists .

Barring the GF victory, This was the happiest moment of my supporting life. Unexpected, unbelievable, after the siren, Geelong at Geelong and for top spot! Will never forget this...and I imagine neither will they.