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A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out. It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered. 4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal. In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up. Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

I was outraged by the 50 metre penalty against Fritsch at the time, so I followed up with a bit of analysis. First up, we all agree that Fritsch was trying to slow down Brisbane (and Bailey's) ball movement. Here's my description of the sequence. Fritsch slides across the boundary line to attempt a mark. Bailey (Brisbane 33) gives him a little nudge forward. The Boundary Umpire whistles for OOF. Soon after, Curtis Deboy, umpire number 11, whistles the stop in play as he runs toward the two players. Meanwhile Bailey 33 tries to get ball. Fritsch is trying to get to his feet. Deboy calls out "Bailey". Bailey 33 now has Fritsch's head between his legs. He then pushes Fritsch to the ground by shoving down on his shoulders (this fits into Fritsch's plan beautifully). With Fritsch now lying face down, Deboy calls out, "Bailey, give it back". Bailey regains his feet (which he is entitled to do as he will be manning the mark) and immediately hands the ball to Bailey 33. Deboy has already decided to pay a 50 metre penalty and adjudicates that decision at the same instant that Fritsch is handing the ball back. Now lets look at that in time! From the moment Deboy says, "Bailey, give it back", 6 seconds transpires before Fritsch hands the ball to Bailey 33. NOW, PLEASE COMPARE WHAT I HAVE DESCRIBED WITH A SIMILAR INCIDENT 10 MINUTES EARLIER With 12:07 to go on the time clock, Petracca lands a beautiful tackle on Bailey 33 between the centre circle and the wing Boundary line. Umpire 3, Leigh Fisher blows the whistle to award a free kick for HTB to Petracca. Bailey 33 tries to slow things down and as Petracca tries to retrieve the ball, Bailey 33 pushes the ball away along the ground. Petracca immediately looks at umpire Fisher with the expression, "Did you see what he did?". No reaction from Fisher and Petracca gets the ball. My point... 12 seconds transpired with this bit of by-play between umpires whistle and Petracca getting his hands on the ball. No 50 metre penalty for a sequence that was twice as long as Deboy's mischief! By the way, 6 seconds of game time was lost with the recall after Lever's mark as well as any advantage we had with field position.

This is a great thread and topic and I how the AFL deals with this correctly. Firstly: I love their current "hot" approach to holding the ball. The intention is great because it will speed the play up. The umpiring execution is poor because it is inconsistent and ignores when the ball is held to a player who really didn't have a chance. (They need to pay it more often and quicker, not occasionally and drawn out). But to address the next step, the umpires need to prioritise holding the man free kicks. Lots of them. Make it painful and risky to grab a player before they get the ball. Reward the ball player first, reward the tackler second. This will open space. The best players will get another half a second which is all they need to clear it. It will mean that coaches need to try to win the ball not catch the man, unless they deploy a specialist stopper. And opening up these contests will open up the ground to faster movement and thus scoring. The worst thing they can do is relax the htb frees. It'll close the game again.

No it wouldn't. If there is hard evidence, it puts the integrity of the AFL in serious question if they sit on their hands and do nothing. All that sucess that Hawthorn had through that era at the expense of everyone else and they are still reaping the benefits of the inflated membership base it allowed them to build. Taking away premierships retrospectively would be hollow. A fitting punishment would be for them to loose a bunch of first round draft picks and exclude them from free agency for the next 3 or 4 years to thwart the rebuild they need to have and make them mediocre for the next decade like other teams have had to endure.

A few days ago I posted this in the 'Teams' thread: Fagan is a smart coach and neurtralizing Max's dominance will be his #1 goal. They are a very smart mid-field and will rove to Max's taps. Also, Lions is one of the teams last year that used the strategy: "match them on the inside, beat them on the outside". So if roving to Max doesn't work they will try and stop us getting the ball out. So we win the clearances but forced to turn the ball over. If it gets into McCluggage's hands they are off to the races. And so it came to pass: Max, our #1 weapon was neutralised. That is not a new strategy. Other teams have used it many times: Pies, Tigers, (last generation) Hawks etc Goodwin said they were better than us at getting the '''loose ball' out at stoppages. Given that it was obvious what their midfield tactics would be why did we not have a counter strategy from the get go? They had an extra around the stoppages so even if we got the ball they ring-fenced us in so the ball fell into dispute. We didn't counter it. Viney and Oliver were mighty in trying to bulldoze there way out but were beaten by weight of numbers and smarts. Not our best coaching effort. To see Max's 'Hitout' work 'wasted' is heartbreaking ?.

Who does a doctor see when they need help?

I'm a fan of fitting in all three of Weideman, Jackson and McDonald into our forward line.

How can they not be investigated? Scott provides details whereas Brock McLean’s evidence was based on Blind Freddy.

This year is one of the worst umpiring displays I've ever seen. The interpretations keep changing for all sorts of free kicks which is making it difficult for umpires to umpire. We got the short end of the stick tonight. Pretty sure I saw Jarrod Berry do the exact same thing as fritsch did in the last quarter twice and not get pinged

He was penalised twice with kicks for "dangerous tackles". Both ridiculous.

We are a better team now than we were in 2018.

Rubbish, if we had beaten Geelong and Lions (which we should have) we would be equal 2nd playing for equal 1st this Thursday

I think that was part of the neutralise Max tactics: If they don't win Max's taps, their mids deliberately wait for ours to take possession from the taps and immediately tackle to force the ball free. Set play: they nominate the tackler and the others set up in a position to receive or move the ball forward to the outside. Our mids were poorly set up or slow to block the exits. I feel it is a deliberate strategy and not just the conditions making us fumbly. I think part of the problem is our mids set up in attacking positions and moving forward expecting us to win the ball from Max's taps. When we don't we are not in a position to defend. Ball gets out and they are off. Would have liked to have seen us man up the spare they had outside the stoppages or have our mids sit goal side of their mids at times and block the exits. Especially in the second quarter when they were walking it out of the middle.

King agrees with you Demon was millimetres from a wheelchair. The video there in clearly shows McStay didn't go for the ball and crunched Jetta's with his hip and his elbow. Jetta wasn't leading with his head as Healy said, he was trying to dodge the Lion players. It was a sad sight to see Jetta walking down the race a bit wobbly and had to lean against the wall to stay steady. McStay should get weeks.

Just to add a comment about Oliver. I was delighted to see him chasing Cameron, even if he didn't catch him. The biggest weakness up to know in Oliver's game has not been his disposal but his willingness to run hard both ways. This year he's improved his kick to handball ratio and improved his two way running. Two big ticks from me.

Honestly A F? May was one of our best last night. No idea what your problem is with him based on that performance. Not sure we should be blaming him solely for that first kick out - looked like a set play gone wrong. Why? You don't like facts? And why is your number one gripe with Goodwin Jetta to Cameron? He only had 9 touches. Yes he kicked 2 goals, but so did Fritsch and no one's suggesting Fritsch had a good game. I'd be far more concerned with what how our midfielders were reacting to stoppages when Brisbane were all over us in the second quarter. Tomlinson? He was a free agent. And you're writing him off after, what, five games?

That was very disappointing. They beat us at our own game in the contest and smashed us in the clearances. Brisbane are one or two steps in class above Hawthorn - it's amazing to think that Hawthorn belted them in R1. We missed too many easy chances - 7.7 compared with St.Kilda 12.1. All that bad against a very good side and we still only lost by 4 points.

The answer is plain and clear. Total domination in the hit outs but destroyed in the clearances. It’s all good when you’re winning in the ruck and that advantage is taken by your team but from the beginning their midfield dominated ours and we couldn’t withstand the pressure. We had to change tack from early in the second quarter when it was starting to hurt us everywhere but on the scoreboard. A slight adjustment at that time and we win the game.

It gets worse year on year. The umps literally do not know what they're doing any more. The rule book might as well be the rule book for tennis for all the relevance it has. The direction given the umps since Geischen (and probably before that) is pathetic and apparently based on some imaginary idea (certainly not written down) about what the game "should" "look like". When the umpires directors clearly do not know the rules themselves, and get on the radio after a contentious weekend with ridiculous rationales for inexplicable decisions, is it any wonder the umps end up behaving as if directionless, and make decisions that defy reason? Because they are directionless. It's killing the game slowly -- yes, there are more factors, but this is definitely one. It would seriously be better if it went back to the captains adjudicating.

Today was Brisbane's second-lowest score for the year, just 1.1 off their lowest (which was when they lost to Geelong). They scored 7 goals from 42 inside 50s. They only took 7 marks inside 50 (their season average is 10.5). And Brisbane is possibly the best side in the comp right now. So if we're doing all that against them (on effectively away territory, given the crowd), then I think our defence is absolutely at the standard we need to challenge for finals.

Very harsh on Lockhart. He was actually pretty good tonight. Secured his spot for next week.

In unrelated good news changes I've made on the backend of Demonland are holding up postgame.

Exactly. They weren't even free kicks. If anything the Lions player should have been penalised for dropping the ball. Farce.

Mc Stay gets 2 weeks for bump on Jetta, rightly so.

We so badly need a scalp. As you pointed out we keep losing to the big boys of the comp to be considered anywhere near a top 4 or even top 8 side. We need to start by knocking off Port, but I'm not convinced they're the ultimate scalp at the moment. Brisbane are certainly a better side than Port.

We also need to figure out how to protect Max. In the Hawks game they were constantly trying to block him out of marking contests. Last night there were a few occasions early where Max was sat under the ball waiting to take a mark and a Lions player just smashed into him as hard as he could. It was in the context of attempting a mark but it was rough play that was borderline worthy of a free kick. They had made a pretense of going for the mark but their aim was really to smash into Max and hurt him while he was prone.

Seriously Buzzy? He is literally just reactive and slow as a person? He plays one of the hardest positions in the side, one that requires an elite ability to read the play and know where to be. As evidence of this ability his captain has said he is the best reader of the game in the team and has been effusive in his praise for omac and the key role he plays in the defense unit. The proof is in the pudding, we have looked much, much better since he has come in to the team. Only someone who doesn't get it would suggest that is happenstance. And leaving his role and importance in the structure aside has he done his job as key defender. His direct opponents have barely taken a mark or kicked a goal on him this year. Don't believe me? Go back and look a the stats of his opponents. And then compare those to stats to his much more highly paid and rated teammates Lever and may How many goals did Mcstay kick yesterday? That's right zero. And he only took 3 marks for the game, with only one being contested (that last one). Compare that to Hipwood who was May's opponent. May did a good job, no one has suggested he didn't. But his opponent kicked a goal and took two contested marks, one being a critical one in the last quarter where string bean hipwood beat him dead to rights one on one. And May cost us the first goal of the game with yet another shocking turnover, this one under no pressure from a kick out. Given you assessment of Omac his hundredth game of AFL football next year will come as surprise to you. Sanctimonious? Perhaps. Be that as it may, you simply don't get it.

He is a whipping boy because so many people simply do not understand modern football. As an example he is not fast. But his relative lack of speed is often highlighted and exacerbated by the position he plays in our structure. When the ball is up the ground and in our hands we have a triangle with may, lever and omac as it's points, with omac deep as a sweeper. If we turn it over - as we so often do - the ball comes in fast to an open opposition forward line (which is incidentally how we concede the majority of out goals). And if it gets past the final line, that leaves omac to try and scramble to get across to any free player, making him look reactive and slow. But he usually gets there which is why he often leads our one percenters. The real questions should be why did we turn it over and who was supposed to run with the opposition player who has run into space, so often a small. Langdon has been huge for us in this respect as he is one player who has the tank and speed (and perhaps more importantly the desire) to get back hard defensively. And weak? Please. Out marked once by McStray who is a pretty solid fella. If they were concerned about his strength may would have taken him. Speaking of may, would you call him weak? He got put muscled by hippwood. A player who does not get wet in the shower.

In close matches the side with more poise and belief usually wins. I had little doubt that Langdon and Weideman would miss their shots at goal. So predictable. But FFS I couldn't believe Bennell's miss. Shouted at the TV when that happened. Same with Kozi's miss. I can't believe that no one has used the "c" word in this thread. The fightback was good, but the missed shots and lack of poise ultimately cost the match. A lot has been said about Hannan's kick to Fritsch. Were there any other options? By that I mean any other players to kick to. Rather than options other than kicking the ball out on the full. Some of Max's hitouts were straight to Lions' players. However, some of the hitouts were to teammates who then handballed to teammates under pressure or didn't otherwise move the ball on straight away, causing turnovers. Brisbane's pressure was good. Surely the Demons' players should realise this!! Good sides don't give you time. It ain't rocket science. I know I sound like a dinosaur, but when we were being killed in clearances, would there be any value in Max occasionally just punching the ball 20/30 forward to mix it up? The team will have to defeat Port to keep its season alive, but I can't see that happening.

Laws of Australian Football. 17.6 Holding the Ball. 17.6.3 Free Kicks- Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player elects to incorrectly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled. For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to incorrectly Dispose of the football when: (a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football; (b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the Player's possession. I have written in bold the relevant points. Reading this rule, my interpretation is that many so called holding the ball calls are wrong. Prime example was Oscar's free given against him. He was legally tackled and he lost possession of the ball from the actions of the tackler's hands. What is going on with this rule? What does everyone else think? Am I reading this wrong?

Moments that stick out Melksham possibly taking a two grabber 30m out, if it hit the deck what the [censored] was he suppose to do. Instantly tackled , umpire calls HTB. McCluggage tackled and clearly drops the ball in fwd 50 during end of 1st quarter, no call. Bennell open goal goes the other way and Cameron shows him how to do it at top pace from further out, big ooof. The numerous Brisbane defensive short kicks that were deemed legal distance, in the first half. Oscar Mc who fell victim to HTB against the grain (looked like he got a knuckle on it).. side note O mac going alright . That diabolical goal umpire call that stopped Jones who was clear on the wing. Handbrake on all momentum. Fritsch end of game. need to see it again but that was a very generous 50m. Errrrrrrreggghjjjjjjjjhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

If Harmes isn't holding on to a jumpers and giving away a free, he's then trying to break tackles and gets pinged for it. Dead set so predictable.

Yep. Super obvious. Would have been so frustrating for our players. I thought Berry in particular played a really sloppy ugly game of football in that regard the way he was laying into players on the ground. Although it may have been effective at times wearing us down its not a great look

We need to counter when a team decides to ruck from Maxy and not their own ruckman. Happened against Carlton and several times during Cats/Tigers games. This should come from on field leaders Gawn/Viney as well as from the coaches box. It seems to affect our structure and spread and it takes a quarter or 2 to sort it out. I'd also like our boys to take a few extra steps back when kicking from a mark/free. How many were touched or smothered??

Because we all love punishment, I’ve watched Frittagate several times. He was told at least twice to give the ball back problem was, in the first instant the Lions player actually pushed Fritta back to the ground. It was after the second time he handed the ball back.

Crazy post binman. Cameron is very quick and was on the burst the fact that Oliver stayed with him and perhaps even gained a bit on him was evidence of his pace. For context, see these screen shots of top speed and distance run yesterday.

I honestly thought Tomlinson was stiff initially to be dropped. I'd be bringing him in this week for Gus who was worst on ground.

Carlton and Hawthorn in the 80's were notorious for the brown paper bag. I don't think anything Don Scott has to say is a revelation for those of us following the game through that period. The reality is everyone (and that includes Melbourne) has transgressed the salary cup at some point. It cost us draft picks in the late 90's. Scott's point is more about why Hawthorn needed saving after so many years as a top club yet still with a low membership base. They did spend a lot of many of players and it sent the club broke. They are not the only club that has happened to. Interestingly enough, throughout the mid to late 80's Don was actually on the Demon coaching panel. He was the ruck coach of O'Dwyer and Stynes and as I recall was one of the very few media people Northey would let in the rooms from around 87-90. He had little if anything to do with the Hawks until he got back involved around the time of the merger. As eccentric as he may be, he's as honest as the day is long.

probably our best to be fair.

Out: Jetta In: Rivers

That’s gonna get pretty boring in, I dunno, ten minutes ago.

Not a great game for Mitch Hannan, but he hasn’t been trending that way. He’s been good for us the past two matches. I’m not a fan of punishing players who have an off-game. Also mistakes made in the dying minutes shouldn’t cop more heat than any other mistakes made by other players.

Is this going to be you shtick every week now?

I'm so angry at losing that game.... it was there for us to win, but also there has to be a please explain about that umpiring! 10m kicks getting paid for Brisbane, holding the ball calls when there was absolutely zero opportunity.... AARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH Oh and Gerard Healy should never commentate Melbourne games again. He hates us so much. His worst was when Nev was taken high with a bump to the head, he had a go at Nev and failed to mention the Brisbane guy tucking his elbow in and going for the bump

Second half of your assessment is spot on. Harmes was pinged red hot for hold the ball in slinging gang tackles with no prior and told he didn’t make a genuine genuine attempt. Absolutely atrocious. Suddenly that rule didn’t apply to Brisbane players

I thought Lockhart was really good tonight, don't nderstand the hate

This one stings, the proof is that we can match it with the best teams in the competition. The frustration is that when the time comes we seem to be our own worst enemies. I like what Weid is bringing to the team but if he is going to be our long term FF prospect he can’t be spraying 20m slight angle kicks out on the full. It’s a gut punch to the entire team that works hard to get him in that position. We could (should) be sitting here saying his 3 goals won us the game instead we sit here saying his misses may have cost us the game (he wasn’t on his own). What really concerns me is that in the two close games we were pushing for the winning goal we seem to completely lose our heads and do silly things. That final forward thrust should have resulted in a shot on goal instead it ended up with an out on the full and Fritta giving away a stupid 50m penalty. Inexcusable. There are positives to take from the game, Jackson’s continued good form being one of them, but I hope the players are absolutely filthy with themselves right now.

No one is dropping Harmes, even if he did have a poor game.

28 touches, 10 tackles, 15 contested possies and 5 clearances. Might have missed a target or two in the conditions, but he worked his backside off for us all night.

I’ve watched footy consistently for 36 years (I’m 42) and I don’t understand holding the ball anymore. It feels like if the ball bobbles out your ok, and otherwise take a guess. Has nothing to do with skill either way.