binman’s rant (Goody defence)

[JJJ 1,191]

1 hour ago, binman said:

I'm glad our loss to freo has given the face palm posse an opportunity to take their pots shots at me.

I'm not going to bother to defend my opinion on goody other than to say if you listened to my rant and think a loss this weekend gone changes my opinion that goody is a legend of the MFC for the record he has established in his 8 years as senior coach then you have serious comprehension issues.

And if you haven't listened to it but feel the need to come on here to have a pot-shot at me when you dont even know what i said then I live in your head rent free and perhaps you need to put me on ignore for your own well being as my opinions are clearly very triggering.

The internet and forums like Demonland are a weird place at times.

If Binman and (insert disgruntled Demonland member here) were to be having these debates over a beer before a game, there would be way less vitriol and more constructive conclusions.

Instead, people on Demonland get very personal and worked up about someone else’s opinion. 

[Hellfire Dub 152]

8 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

How so?

Hi BBP, since a lot of this discussion is based on stats (which is not my forte) it's probably fitting to post their records as taken from Wikipedia.  

The first screenshot is Longmuir's record and the second is Goodwin's.

Goody has had longer as senior coach and a better percentage and made more finals than Longmuir. 

This follows on from the too predictable thread.  My point was that I don't think he's (JL) a great coach (and statistically he's not as good as Goodwin), but nevertheless he has worked out not just how to beat us, but how to whip us. 

I know we have obvious major injuries and retirements, but coaches like Brad Scott haven't copped on yet to the method, but it won't be pretty or enjoyable for us.  

I love that Goodwin led us to the flag and he does lots of stuff right and has lots of decent qualities, but he can't be above criticism.  I think we set up badly against Freo (HP as ruck and the high press) and he didn't alter it early enough or arguably at all.  Last week's first quarter against Bombers HP got smashed in the ruck and things only turned when Roo took over the majority.  Why on Earth would we set up with last week's failed experiment and doggedly persist with it for so long when it was really hurting us? 

Come on this is not a personal criticism of Goodwin or Binman, I just don't understand why you'd repeat your failures when all you talk about it "learnings".  I'd like us to learn less and celebrate more.  

[spirit of norm smith 16,087]

Clarry is not going anywhere.  With the right support and a solid pre season, he will get back to being a premier midfielder.  I’d also have a chat about the stupid little 2 metre handballs.  “Run and spread and kick” needs to get back into his game.  

[Hellfire Dub 152]

On 22/07/2024 at 19:16, Deestar9 said:

I was at the footy a couple of weeks ago & was chatting to a few guys I see now & then at Melb games. One made a comment to me “have you ever read a forum called Demonland , it’s great for a laugh especially after a loss.”  So true …the OTT comments after a loss & the vitriol against coach & certain players is downright embarrassing. I’m all for understanding the emotion during the game day thread (never read it) but when that’s died down …quite unbelievable. Now I’ve read your post ..understand completely where they were coming from  …laughable/embarrassing..pick your adjective 

Deestar, I'm honestly comfortable enough in myself not to care what people think or say about me.  I don't think there was anything vitriolic, laughable or embarrassing in my post, but if you reckon there was then fair enough.  

In the context of this thread it was offered as a counterpoint to opinions that SG is an eternal legend and we must never question his wisdom or coaching. 

I think it's also fair to say that I like and admire HP as a person and how he plays as a defender.  Unfortunately I think he's lost confidence as a forward and isn't good enough to play in the ruck.

Again I'm sensible and independently minded enough not to accept the herd mentality, so it doesn't really matter but I'm not alone in either of those opinions.   

I can trust my own eyes and footy experience and knowledge and make a judgement that I'm happy with.  I agree there's plenty of crazy stuff posted on here.  In my life I try to stay measured and be fair to everyone.  

If you and your mates are happy with what you're witnessing at all the games you've been to this year then good for you.  I've found some of the games to be frustrating and disappointing.  I'm not calling for anyone to be pilloried or whipped or shot.  I'd just like to see our professional athletes and coaches actually learning from their mistakes and not repeating them. 

I'm also an optimist and am hoping for the best for our team that they can realise their potential.  I'm not willing to accept mediocrity and I'm not embarrassed by these opinions.  Just because Melbourne have had many years in the doldrums doesn't mean we should accept half efforts or inadequate leadership.  Again if you think everything is rosy and I'm just an [censored] spouting unrealistically rubbish expectations then that's fine with me.  

[binman 42,419]

9 hours ago, Hellfire Dub said:

In the context of this thread it was offered as a counterpoint to opinions that SG is an eternal legend and we must never question his wisdom or coaching. 

HD, your position in Goodwin is well argued but you completely undercut them with this sort of reductionist palaver.

There's a name for it, which I can't recall off the top of my head, but has become an ubiquitous strategy in modern discourse, particularly online discourse.

It's a brutally effective strategy designed to do exactly the opposite of the complaint - silence the views of others. Accusation as projection.

It forces people into binary positions and makes a nuanced debate or mature exploration of a topic all but impossible. Which of course is the key aim.

I didn't start this thread. I did however do the bit on the podcast the OP references, which is me making a case Goodwin is a legend of the club and dees fans should get behind him.

That was it. 

I never said during my bit that goody was above criticism. I have criticised goody plenty over the journey (ironically those critisims included his handling of jack Watts and jessie hogan - ironic because I got wacked for those views)

And perhaps i missed it, but I don't recall reading a single post on here, or anywhere for that matter, that said posters 'must never question his wisdom or coaching'.

If there was such a post perhaps you can point me to it.

Of course the great irony is the people using this strategy, consciously or unconsciously, are often the same people complaining their opinions are shut down.

Ironic because as noted the strategy works to silence the voices and opinions of others - to shut down conversation. 

It's a form of gaslighting that is particularly effective because instead of discussing substantive things and the core issues at hand (in this case whether goody can be considered a legend of the MFC) discussion devolves into being about the right to express contrary views and grievance. 

It one of the reasons (along with others like peurile personal attacks and deliberately misrepresenting my systed opinions) there is a vanishingly small number of posters on DL these days that i can be bothered having a robust debate with. 

Edited July 23 by binman

[Webber 10,448]

On 22/07/2024 at 18:44, binman said:

@Webber might not have chosen to create this thread!

But the content of the rant would be the same.

Emotions aside, logic would’ve lead me to initiate the thread as it stands, albeit given the loss on Sunday, being 1 of 179 games Simon Goodwin has coached, I would of course be 0.55 % less enthusiastic in my agreement with your great rant. As you’ve tried to prosecute this last couple of seasons - mostly falling on deaf ears and blind eyes - one game isn’t a litmus test on a season, let alone a coaching career. It’s said a week is a long time in footy, but sometimes it really just isn’t. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 23/07/2024 at 06:30, spirit of norm smith said:

Clarry is not going anywhere.  With the right support and a solid pre season, he will get back to being a premier midfielder.  I’d also have a chat about the stupid little 2 metre handballs.  “Run and spread and kick” needs to get back into his game.  

Its the elephant in the room about his game.  When he's in form there's a fair chunk more of the latter.

At the moment he rarely drives out of / away from stoppage.

Mind you he's had so many amazing up years playing at such a high level he was probably always due to come off at some point.

We can only hope he'll have a bumper pre-season and we see the return of ye olde King Clarry in 2025 🤞🏼

[Jibroni 4,985]

On 22/07/2024 at 18:51, JJJ said:

The internet and forums like Demonland are a weird place at times.

Twitter and Facebook is much worse.

At least on Demonland we have a common passion, albeit different ways of expressing it.

[Bimbo 940]

On 22/07/2024 at 18:32, Billy said:

 

On another topic where’s Petracca, is he at the club supporting his teammates or has he taken the remainder of the season off?

He was walking round the Tan last week and patted our family dog (who is now allowed to sleep on my pillow)

[Hopeful Demon 1,515]

On 22/07/2024 at 18:32, Billy said:

I know, it’s a disgraceful that Clarry cops all the blame, stick by our boy, he’s the best since Robbie& deserves to show the critics in 2025 with a full preseason & no injuries what he can do.

On another topic where’s Petracca, is he at the club supporting his teammates or has he taken the remainder of the season off?

Weird comment. He's coming off a life threatening injury.

[Mel Bourne 4,514]

4 hours ago, binman said:

HD, your position in Goodwin is well argued but you completely undercut them with this sort of reductionist palaver.

There's a name for it, which I can't recall off the top of my head, but has become an ubiquitous strategy in modern discourse, particularly online discourse.

It's a brutally effective strategy designed to do exactly the opposite of the complaint - silence the views of others. Accusation as projection.

It forces people into binary positions and makes a nuanced debate or mature exploration of a topic all but impossible. Which of course is the key aim.

I didn't start this thread. I did however do the bit on the podcast the OP references, which is me making a case Goodwin is a legend of the club and dees fans should get behind him.

That was it. 

I never said during my bit that goody was above criticism. I have criticised goody plenty over the journey (ironically those critisims included his handling of jack Watts and jessie hogan - ironic because I got wacked for those views)

And perhaps i missed it, but I don't recall reading a single post on here, or anywhere for that matter, that said posters 'must never question his wisdom or coaching'.

If there was such a post perhaps you can point me to it.

Of course the great irony is the people using this strategy, consciously or unconsciously, are often the same people complaining their opinions are shut down.

Ironic because as noted the strategy works to silence the voices and opinions of others - to shut down conversation. 

It's a form of gaslighting that is particularly effective because instead of discussing substantive things and the core issues at hand (in this case whether goody can be considered a legend of the MFC) discussion devolves into being about the right to express contrary views and grievance. 

It one of the reasons (along with others like peurile personal attacks and deliberately misrepresenting my systed opinions) there is a vanishingly small number of posters on DL these days that i can be bothered having a robust debate with. 

You pretty much named it already. 
 

Reductive reasoning. 

[Hellfire Dub 152]

13 hours ago, binman said:

HD, your position in Goodwin is well argued but you completely undercut them with this sort of reductionist palaver.

There's a name for it, which I can't recall off the top of my head, but has become an ubiquitous strategy in modern discourse, particularly online discourse.

It's a brutally effective strategy designed to do exactly the opposite of the complaint - silence the views of others. Accusation as projection.

It forces people into binary positions and makes a nuanced debate or mature exploration of a topic all but impossible. Which of course is the key aim.

I didn't start this thread. I did however do the bit on the podcast the OP references, which is me making a case Goodwin is a legend of the club and dees fans should get behind him.

That was it. 

I never said during my bit that goody was above criticism. I have criticised goody plenty over the journey (ironically those critisims included his handling of jack Watts and jessie hogan - ironic because I got wacked for those views)

And perhaps i missed it, but I don't recall reading a single post on here, or anywhere for that matter, that said posters 'must never question his wisdom or coaching'.

If there was such a post perhaps you can point me to it.

Of course the great irony is the people using this strategy, consciously or unconsciously, are often the same people complaining their opinions are shut down.

Ironic because as noted the strategy works to silence the voices and opinions of others - to shut down conversation. 

It's a form of gaslighting that is particularly effective because instead of discussing substantive things and the core issues at hand (in this case whether goody can be considered a legend of the MFC) discussion devolves into being about the right to express contrary views and grievance. 

It one of the reasons (along with others like peurile personal attacks and deliberately misrepresenting my systed opinions) there is a vanishingly small number of posters on DL these days that i can be bothered having a robust debate with. 

 

8 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

You pretty much named it already. 
 

Reductive reasoning. 

Binman and Melbourne, fair play to you both you made me laugh out loud after dinner here and I had to look up reductive reasoning.  If that's what I was doing it wasn't intentional and you're right it's really bad form to carry on like that.  It's disrespectful and discourteous to everyone else on the forum. 

It's amazing how misinterpreted we can be trying to discuss these things as posts in a forum versus the lively and enjoyable discussion we'd have if we were debating it in person over a beer.  

I think I was doing the same as you and reacting to being accused of something I thought wasn't fair.  In my case I was told I was being vitriolic and laughable and embarrassing etc. 

It's hard to summarise an entire thread in a post so I've inadvertently been reductionist which is a hitherto unknown talent for me!  I've listened to you  enough Binman to know you do criticise SG and being fair you didn't say he was above criticism.  Some contributors have posted to that effect and I genuinely disagree with it. 

This season has clearly been affected by retirements and devastating injuries as have some others of his tenure like 2019 and 2023.  Nevertheless I think SG has only one year left and I'll be happy to have a new coach and see how we go.  I've said before that I would have been happy with Yze getting a shot instead of going to the tigers. 

Apart from the glory of 21 I'll be honest and say I've always doubted SG and questioned some of his decision making.  I've also always wondered if we'd have been better off with a different coach in charge.  I know that's unpopular because he led us to victory in 2021, but you can't live two lives, nor should you live one life full of regrets. 

Whenever SG does finish up coaching the Dees I'll be grateful for that flag but I'll always believe that we could have achieved at least another, or at the very least more finals and finals victories. 

In the meantime I want him and the team to be as successful as possible.  Right now we're not achieving that. 

We're duty bound to some players with injuries and issues and I'm fine with doing the right thing by them.  Unfortunately it seems we're also contractually bound to some inadequate players on our list and a coach that I don't have faith in.  I think him and his management colleagues have made some bad list decisions and strategic errors.  I don't think they're achieving their best with what they have available.  

There are a reasonable number of other Fans who are also sick of hearing the same old 5h1t3 excuses and meaningless corporate platitude speak too so he won't be universally lauded or lamented when he's finished.  

The problem is that I don't know of a better alternative coach who's available or willing to take the job right now.  Even if a saviour was waiting in the wings it would take a few years to sort out the list and forgive the digression, but in the longer term our club still needs a proper home.  I think that would really improve our recruiting prospects and help some of the cultural issues and encourage more fan participation with the club.  It would help in getting the league to take us more seriously as a club.  

[picket fence 16,970]

On 17/07/2024 at 22:29, deanox said:

 

In a few weeks Bevo will have coached more games and to more grand finals than any other WB coach ever.

Maybe some think his record may not make him an all time VFL/AFL legend, but he is about 39th on the all time games coaches list, and about 9 of those haven't won a flag. So he is in good company.

 

Goodwin has a long way to go to get past Norm Smith or Checker Hughes*, but he is a comfortable 3rd at the moment for us. His record is fantastic, and if our kids keep travelling the way they are, he'll be around many more years.

And if Goody is overated,  Bevo is in another Universe! ANGRY, arrogant and obstinate !

[picket fence 16,970]

13 hours ago, binman said:

HD, your position in Goodwin is well argued but you completely undercut them with this sort of reductionist palaver.

There's a name for it, which I can't recall off the top of my head, but has become an ubiquitous strategy in modern discourse, particularly online discourse.

It's a brutally effective strategy designed to do exactly the opposite of the complaint - silence the views of others. Accusation as projection.

It forces people into binary positions and makes a nuanced debate or mature exploration of a topic all but impossible. Which of course is the key aim.

I didn't start this thread. I did however do the bit on the podcast the OP references, which is me making a case Goodwin is a legend of the club and dees fans should get behind him.

That was it. 

I never said during my bit that goody was above criticism. I have criticised goody plenty over the journey (ironically those critisims included his handling of jack Watts and jessie hogan - ironic because I got wacked for those views)

And perhaps i missed it, but I don't recall reading a single post on here, or anywhere for that matter, that said posters 'must never question his wisdom or coaching'.

If there was such a post perhaps you can point me to it.

Of course the great irony is the people using this strategy, consciously or unconsciously, are often the same people complaining their opinions are shut down.

Ironic because as noted the strategy works to silence the voices and opinions of others - to shut down conversation. 

It's a form of gaslighting that is particularly effective because instead of discussing substantive things and the core issues at hand (in this case whether goody can be considered a legend of the MFC) discussion devolves into being about the right to express contrary views and grievance. 

It one of the reasons (along with others like peurile personal attacks and deliberately misrepresenting my systed opinions) there is a vanishingly small number of posters on DL these days that i can be bothered having a robust debate with. 

You are either a Maths teacher with no Idea or just a person that uses words that only a Phd in [censored] can understand! Such verbose implausability of grandiose design meaning .... Inconsequential and limited cerebral capacity!!

[picket fence 16,970]

15 minutes ago, Hellfire Dub said:

 

Binman and Melbourne, fair play to you both you made me laugh out loud after dinner here and I had to look up reductive reasoning.  If that's what I was doing it wasn't intentional and you're right it's really bad form to carry on like that.  It's disrespectful and discourteous to everyone else on the forum. 

It's amazing how misinterpreted we can be trying to discuss these things as posts in a forum versus the lively and enjoyable discussion we'd have if we were debating it in person over a beer.  

I think I was doing the same as you and reacting to being accused of something I thought wasn't fair.  In my case I was told I was being vitriolic and laughable and embarrassing etc. 

It's hard to summarise an entire thread in a post so I've inadvertently been reductionist which is a hitherto unknown talent for me!  I've listened to you  enough Binman to know you do criticise SG and being fair you didn't say he was above criticism.  Some contributors have posted to that effect and I genuinely disagree with it. 

This season has clearly been affected by retirements and devastating injuries as have some others of his tenure like 2019 and 2023.  Nevertheless I think SG has only one year left and I'll be happy to have a new coach and see how we go.  I've said before that I would have been happy with Yze getting a shot instead of going to the tigers. 

Apart from the glory of 21 I'll be honest and say I've always doubted SG and questioned some of his decision making.  I've also always wondered if we'd have been better off with a different coach in charge.  I know that's unpopular because he led us to victory in 2021, but you can't live two lives, nor should you live one life full of regrets. 

Whenever SG does finish up coaching the Dees I'll be grateful for that flag but I'll always believe that we could have achieved at least another, or at the very least more finals and finals victories. 

In the meantime I want him and the team to be as successful as possible.  Right now we're not achieving that. 

We're duty bound to some players with injuries and issues and I'm fine with doing the right thing by them.  Unfortunately it seems we're also contractually bound to some inadequate players on our list and a coach that I don't have faith in.  I think him and his management colleagues have made some bad list decisions and strategic errors.  I don't think they're achieving their best with what they have available.  

There are a reasonable number of other Fans who are also sick of hearing the same old 5h1t3 excuses and meaningless corporate platitude speak too so he won't be universally lauded or lamented when he's finished.  

The problem is that I don't know of a better alternative coach who's available or willing to take the job right now.  Even if a saviour was waiting in the wings it would take a few years to sort out the list and forgive the digression, but in the longer term our club still needs a proper home.  I think that would really improve our recruiting prospects and help some of the cultural issues and encourage more fan participation with the club.  It would help in getting the league to take us more seriously as a club.  

U are kidding! Plenty of coaches in waiting! 

[Hellfire Dub 152]

40 minutes ago, picket fence said:

U are kidding! Plenty of coaches in waiting! 

Who would you suggest? 

[picket fence 16,970]

11 hours ago, Hellfire Dub said:

Who would you suggest? 

JUSTIN LEPPITSCH

DEAN GIANSERACUSA

STEVEN KING AND one right out of left field who is extremely analytical and knowledgeable.........

JOEY MONTANA 

[drysdale demon 4,819]

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

JUSTIN LEPPITSCH

DEAN GIANSERACUSA

STEVEN KING AND one right out of left field who is extremely analytical and knowledgeable.........

JOEY MONTANA 

Is Dean Gianseracusa the brother of Daniel Gianseracusa ? Never Heard of Joey Montana tnere use to be a player at St Kilda called Joe Montagna.

[Ollie fan 3,340]

8 hours ago, picket fence said:

JUSTIN LEPPITSCH

DEAN GIANSERACUSA

STEVEN KING AND one right out of left field who is extremely analytical and knowledgeable.........

JOEY MONTANA 

The problem with Montagna is, noone has any idea whether he can manage a coaching team, inspire players, maintain team cohesion, etc. - there is s great deal more to coaching than just tactics. And this is true of all the others, who have only ever been assistants. We KNOW that Goody can formulate an overall strategy, and can get and keep the loyalty of his players.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

Another poor coaching performance.

No answer for the Giants handball game.

Tmac on Hogan made no sense.

Another poor coaching performance by McQualter too.

[titan_uranus 24,959]

1 hour ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Another poor coaching performance.

No answer for the Giants handball game.

Tmac on Hogan made no sense.

Another poor coaching performance by McQualter too.

TMac kept Hogan to one goal up until there was 1 minute to go in the third quarter. Hogan was on the end of GWS moving the ball at will off the back of clearance dominance. He's also in AA and Coleman-winning form.

"No answer for the Giants handball game". What exactly was the answer then? 

We lost by 2 points to a side many on here said pre-game we wouldn't beat, who played champagne football from clearance for 20 minutes and kicked 5 goals, and who kicked beautifully all night. If anything, it was the coaching that kept us in it. It was our inefficient playing list, unable to capitalise on momentum and unable to execute under pressure, which kept us out of it.

[Watson11 2,240]

23 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

TMac kept Hogan to one goal up until there was 1 minute to go in the third quarter. Hogan was on the end of GWS moving the ball at will off the back of clearance dominance. He's also in AA and Coleman-winning form.

"No answer for the Giants handball game". What exactly was the answer then? 

We lost by 2 points to a side many on here said pre-game we wouldn't beat, who played champagne football from clearance for 20 minutes and kicked 5 goals, and who kicked beautifully all night. If anything, it was the coaching that kept us in it. It was our inefficient playing list, unable to capitalise on momentum and unable to execute under pressure, which kept us out of it.

Another viewpoint is May had the strength to matchup on Hogan while TMac didn’t.  Hogan didn’t get many 1 on 1 opportunities until that 7 minute patch.  And when he did get them he monstered T-Mac, kicked 3 quick goals, and they won by 2 points.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,662]

Not specifically having a go at Goodwin, but what’s the upside in not having your premier defender in May on their premier forward in Hogan?

[binman 42,419]

Just now, Watson11 said:

Another viewpoint is May had the strength to matchup on Hogan while TMac didn’t.  Hogan didn’t get many 1 on 1 opportunities until that 7 minute patch.  And when he did get them he monstered T-Mac, kicked 3 quick goals, and they won by 2 points.

And tmac has never been great one on one. He's better out in space.

To be fair t8 tmsc those inside 50s  were super hard to defend, and that's on Max and the mids.

And jessie is a gun., who is in rare form at the moment. Nailed his chances too.

One of my favourite dees - id have him back in a heart beat.

Imagine Hogan and JVR roaming around inside our front half

[Sir Why You Little 36,859]

Goodwin was definitely out coached after Quarter time, GW$ had loose players regularly running for space on our Home Deck. We didn’t give up, but we were still chasing the game after the first quarter. 
watching ex Demons play really good games is hard work