POSTGAME: Rd 23 vs Hawthorn

[Nairobi_Demon 315]

Good win - got the 4 points without exerting too much energy. That bodes well for next week but also keeps plenty of energy in the tank for finals. 

I can’t see Laurie staying in the side. He seemed to struggle with the faster AFL pace, which will only intensify further in finals. 
 

Spargo needs to return.

[Demon Dynasty 15,416]

16 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

That would allow more Tracc on ball and hopefully in combination with Oliver at near his best we get our midfield charge game back. but they were going back and forth for a fair while.

Would need to watch the replay re his on ball (around ground stoppage work) but from what i witnessed Tracc was better when playing forward (today) vs when being played in the middle at CBs.  Thought he was ordinary at CBs.

Was hoping to see more Kozzy time here vs Tracc with Tracc playing a bit more time forward.

Kozzy needed the time in the middle to get him involved imv as he was pretty quiet offensively as a forward.  Defensively very good as usual though.

While there were some Kozzy minutes at CBs i thought there wasn't enough of them nor did we persist for long enough imho.

Hoping we ramp his time in the middle up to around 15% - 20% of time (at least) as we come into finals.  Dangerous prospect through here when he's on and we need an injection of speed too as a change up look.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[dees189227 10,769]

Well I just hope going into the finals the boys remember the hurt from last year going out in straight sets & use it as motivation for this finals series 

[DEE fence 4,451]

3 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

The amount of touches Kozzy got today we're irrelevant IMO. He was constantly tracking runners, so that Hawthorn couldn't chip and give like Carlton did to us the entire first half last week, until Kozzy went deep last week and had a big say in the way Carlton were able to move the ball.

I reckon people need to watch games more closely, not you DF, just generally. 

It's such a systems based competition now, and the game since 2022, has been so much about chipping and getting handball receives to slice through zones. The speed of pressure Kozzy is able to apply in our forward half is not necessarily measured in mere tackles (2). He had 22 pressure acts for the game. He was very serviceable despite the 5 possessions. For context, Viney had our most with 28 (in front of Chandler 24, Sparrow 23 and Kozzy 22).

Totally agree, I was commenting for others who stress about how many goals he kicks, I thought he did fine and agree 100% about the pressure he brings, his presence when the opposition is bringing the ball in changes the way they play and is a big part of our fwd 50 defense.

[Binmans PA 26,052]

57 minutes ago, Deeoldfart said:

As good as Mitchell might be as an emerging young coach (according to the media, at least!), I thought Goody clearly out-coached him today.

He seems to have lifted Clarkson's tricks IMO. The way they moved the ball today from half back intercept was very Hawthorn 2012, which makes sense. Mitchell would know it well.

[layzie 28,723]

Absolutely in total agreement 

[old dee 22,852]

16 minutes ago, Nairobi_Demon said:

Good win - got the 4 points without exerting too much energy. That bodes well for next week but also keeps plenty of energy in the tank for finals. 

I can’t see Laurie staying in the side. He seemed to struggle with the faster AFL pace, which will only intensify further in finals. 
 

Spargo needs to return.

Surely you jest. 

[The heart beats true 16,136]

Watching the replay:

Melksham could have easily kicked 6. He really beat Sicily, which is a huge win.

Rivers was our best performer.

Lever our most important.

[Fromgotowoewodin 726]

11 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

I’m not saying he needs to be electric every week, just involved at a consistent level. Five disposals is not good. 

I’m not using goals as a metric. If I was, he’s behind Greene, Cameron, Elliot, Papley, Higgins and Rankine in that regard (and not sure why Cyril Rioli’s numbers are the benchmark - small forward-wise, Greene has kicked 56 and Cameron has kicked 53 this year).  

His inconsistency is not an illusion. There was a reason why he was moved to the centre bounces against the Tigers a couple of weeks ago - to get him more directly involved. I’m not sure why it hasn’t been adopted more since, as it seemed to be having the desired intention. 

Toby Greene 29yo height 5’11” 210 career games 319 career goals @1.52pg

Charlie Cameron 29yo 5’10” 197 career games 348 career goals @1.78pg

Kysaiah Pickett 22yo height 5’7” 81 career games 121 career goals @1.49pg

almost as if you’re not comparing apples with apples. Koz plays a different role to those 2, is in a different weight division and his goals pg still stack up pretty well despite everyone wanting him dropped (lol) or traded (loooooool) every second week. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,416]

If Melk had kicked straight / longer he could've easily kicked 5.

Defensively pretty solid for him as well aside from the odd switch off.

I can't recall him hitting in at so many marking contests in the one match in the past but happy to be corrected.

It wasn't just his 'in-game' work either that impressed.  At the end of the match i saw him having an extended two way convo with Roohey.

Obviously i have no idea what about but can we assume he's passing on some words of wisdom and gems from a forward craft perspective?

Invaluable stuff for the young rookie if so and great to see seniors so willing to pass on their knowledge and learnings to the younger boys coming through.

[Brownie 5,176]

1 hour ago, Mel Bourne said:

I don’t know if this has happened to anybody else, but I accidentally let Kayo continue playing after the match. 
 

After a while, a program came on called “The Bounce”. It seemed to centre around AFL and was a bit hard to follow, but eventually it occurred to me that Fox have given a few older people with acquired brain injuries the opportunity to host their own show about AFL. Kudos to Rupert and all at Fox for embracing inclusion! 

It must be incredibly difficult for them having a little boys brain trapped in an old man's body.

Watching the show is about as much fun as going to the dentist (sorry to any dentists on here)

[titan_uranus 22,355]

We started poorly, struggling to stop their quick ball movement, but as the game went on we defended the ground better, they tired, and we picked up our ball movement.

I think what pleased me the most was that we beat an in form and dangerous opponent despite Oliver, Trac and Pickett being quiet, and Gawn not dominating.

In their stead, we saw Rivers, Sparrow and ANB step up and play strong football. We saw Melksham shrug off his early inaccuracy to kick 3 whilst JVR and Smith chimed in too. Critically important to our September is ensuring we bat deep. 

Tomlinson struggled one-on-one today and that's his bread and butter. Without it, he's not great. However, structurally we need that spot filled by someone, and I don't want us to flip Smith back there. We are only hurting ourselves and Smith's development by moving him all around. Let him settle with JVR and Melksham. I think we give Tomlinson another game at least. Without Lewis they didn't have an amazing forward line but with Tomlinson able to take a deep forward, Lever was free to play at his best, and his best makes us so much better.

Like others, I hope that being locked into top 4 allows us to hit next week with some freedom. Approach it like a dress rehearsal for finals. Get another week into Oliver, hopefully get Fritsch back into the side, hopefully see Tomlinson improve, get another week of gelling into the JVR-Smith combo.

And finally, this isn't just our third straight top 4 finish, which of its own is remarkable. We will end this H&A season having finished every single week, bar one, in the top 4 from Round 1, 2021 to Round 24, 2023. That's 69 out of 70 completed rounds where we've been ranked one of the four best sides. That is a level of consistency that should be the envy of most other clubs.

[bobby1554 1,132]

1 hour ago, Swooper1987 said:

A good win against a team that has improved markedly over the season.  Mitchell is an outstanding young coach.  Hawthorn have some excellent players and as maddening as it is, they will become a very good team quite quickly.  We did what we needed to do.  Our defence, in particular Lever, Rivers and McVee were outstanding.  No great influence from Petracca and Oliver and nothing at all from Pickett only enhances the win.  I wish Goodwin had let the Maginess question go through to the keeper.  His response was churlish.  The game has a place for everyone and taggers have been around for a long time.  Oliver was beaten, accept it and be better next time.  Nicks' presser last night was the template for class under pressure.

Rubbish. I am glad Goodwin said what he said. There is no special skill involved in making it your sole objective to stop a player getting possessions. 

[Mel Bourne 3,663]

Just now, Fromgotowoewodin said:

Toby Greene 29yo height 5’11” 210 career games 319 career goals @1.52pg

Charlie Cameron 29yo 5’10” 197 career games 348 career goals @1.78pg

Kysaiah Pickett 22yo height 5’7” 81 career games 121 career goals @1.49pg

almost as if you’re not comparing apples with apples. Koz plays a different role to those 2, is in a different weight division and his goals pg still stack up pretty well despite everyone wanting him dropped (lol) or traded (loooooool) every second week. 

Make no mistake, I do not want to see him go. 
 

But what did you make of his move to the centre bounce against the Tigers? The lead-up to it was interesting. It essentially was the first time the football media had put him in check, and the club’s response wasn’t exactly along the lines of “he plays a role that you don’t understand”.

They responded in a way that seemed to indicate they saw a concern too. 

[old dee 22,852]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

Rivers kicking out is 10/10

At least he looks to the right.

[pitmaster 3,063]

Great photo at the head of this. Sicily looking snakey and Worpel looking stupid. Rooey celebrating.

Edited August 20, 2023 by pitmaster

[dees189227 10,769]

What a good day. Dees win, sew up top 4 and the poms lose the world cup 

[Binmans PA 26,052]

38 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I guess I don’t see what everyone else sees with Tomlinson and the stats tell me that we rarely lose when he plays alongside May and Lever. 
Smith has far more impact as a forward. I can’t see how we play Brisbane without Tomlinson for example. 

I agree. That's why I thinknits a conundrum and a tough decision. As I say, I'd be leaning towards Smith back and Fritta with Melksham, but thst could change depending on our opponent and how we go next week.

38 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I know Schache was there as insurance for Gawn. I didn’t have an issue with the sub choice. I just didn’t think we needed to sub him on while the game was still in the balance. 
He is a total liability IMO. Has no sense of urgency.  

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to direct my Schache comment at you mate.

And I agree, when I heard Schache was the sub, I was staggered. My first thought was Grundy is absolutely done as a Dee, pending Max's fitness.

40 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Well they won clearances and contested possessions so you’re right. 
We were just much much better defensively. After the first quarter Hawks couldn’t move the ball. 

They won CP and UP, and clearances as you say. And yet we still managed to smash them in inside 50s (+22). We only shaded them for intercepts by +6, so this would suggest we used the ball better on intercept. We went at 75% DE, which is quite high for us. We also scored 25 points form defensive half chains, our fourth-most for the season.

Interestingly, between Rounds 18-22, Hawthorn scored 58.4 points from intercepts, the number one ranked side in the competition. I'm sure @WheeloRatings will be able to tell us how many points came from that source today in the Stats thread. I'm going to say that got nowhere near that for points today.

42 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Consistent ball movement seems to be our biggest challenge. I hope Salo can be back near his best come finals as well as Bowey and for the improvements Lever and May have shown at times to stick.

The big room for improvement is in our midfield spread and run. The Hawks ran like crazy for a half today and apart from Viney we were flagging. I’d like to see Fritsch as a flanker/de facto CHF and leave Melk as is rather than Fritsch at full forward.

That would allow more Tracc on ball and hopefully in combination with Oliver at near his best we get our midfield charge game back. 

I like the Fritta idea a lot. Although he often tries for too much by foot when higher up the ground and is intercepted.

37 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

May looked like he pulled up sore in the last quarter. 

I wonder if Disco Turner isn’t without a chance of replacing Tomlinson. I think he’s worth considering. 

I like Disco, but I don't think he's big enough, nor strong enough to play lockdown, which ideally the Tomlinson role is, so it frees up Lever and even May.

[Fromgotowoewodin 726]

2 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

Make no mistake, I do not want to see him go. 
 

But what did you make of his move to the centre bounce against the Tigers? The lead-up to it was interesting. It essentially was the first time the football media had put him in check, and the club’s response wasn’t exactly along the lines of “he plays a role that you don’t understand”.

They responded in a way that seemed to indicate they saw a concern too. 

I’m sure they’ll do it again at different points too. Didn’t do it today so that would suggest by your metric they weren’t all that concerned. 

Coaches are getting 1.49 goals per game out of him overall, plus the forward pressure, tackle and chase. Probably would’ve liked a bit more out of him today but it’s a team game, as long as somebody’s kicking them we’re ok. 

[Beetle 4,281]

1 hour ago, Deeoldfart said:

As good as Mitchell might be as an emerging young coach (according to the media, at least!), I thought Goody clearly out-coached him today.

Couldn’t disagree more. I think our better, more experienced stock of players ended up wearing them down and winning us the game.

For a very young side they completely picked our zone apart for most of the game and worked back hard, consistently outnumbering us at the contest on our half forward line. They also beat us in clearances without Newcombe.

[Smokey 4,126]

Hawthorn will play finals next year 

[demon3165 1,918]

1 hour ago, Binmans PA said:

You can't really have an opinion on whether someone's possessto think through your answerions lead to goals or not. They either do or they don't. You said you thought every possession lead to a turnover or goal against. Nonsense.

Bowser was run down from behind as a result of a Rivers handball, both players lacked awareness there.

And the other goal Bowser gave up was a coughed up handball from a midfield press via a centre stoppage win out the front of the stoppage, with little midfield pressure (read no midfield pressure) applied to Hawthorn's players.

I'd like our defenders to be tighter and not give up any goals, but mistakes are going to happen, particularly when Rivers, Bowey and Salem are being given plenty of licence to try and create play from back there.

The issue we're going to have with our back 7 is Tomlinson is too slow to play in the zone. Smith may have to go back and Melksham stays in alongside Fritta...

What are you talking about, think you need to think about what you respond to....

[demon3165 1,918]

12 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

I agree. That's why I thinknits a conundrum and a tough decision. As I say, I'd be leaning towards Smith back and Fritta with Melksham, but thst could change depending on our opponent and how we go next week.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to direct my Schache comment at you mate.

And I agree, when I heard Schache was the sub, I was staggered. My first thought was Grundy is absolutely done as a Dee, pending Max's fitness.

They won CP and UP, and clearances as you say. And yet we still managed to smash them in inside 50s (+22). We only shaded them for intercepts by +6, so this would suggest we used the ball better on intercept. We went at 75% DE, which is quite high for us. We also scored 25 points form defensive half chains, our fourth-most for the season.

Interestingly, between Rounds 18-22, Hawthorn scored 58.4 points from intercepts, the number one ranked side in the competition. I'm sure @WheeloRatings will be able to tell us how many points came from that source today in the Stats thread. I'm going to say that got nowhere near that for points today.

I like the Fritta idea a lot. Although he often tries for too much by foot when higher up the ground and is intercepted.

I like Disco, but I don't think he's big enough, nor strong enough to play lockdown, which ideally the Tomlinson role is, so it frees up Lever and even May.

And Salem is? One does not mind contact the other does guess which one does..

[Roost it far 6,051]

6 minutes ago, Smokey said:

Hawthorn will play finals next year 

Same could be said of Adelaide, Suns, WB, GWS, and whoever else is unlucky enough to miss this year

[Binmans PA 26,052]

Just now, demon3165 said:

What are you talking about, think you need to think about what you respond to....

Comprehension isn't your strong suit is it? 

If you write rubbish, you'll be pulled up on it.