PREGAME: Rd 22 vs Carlton

[Smokey 4,138]

18 minutes ago, Young Angus said:

We all thought North were an easy beat and they gave us a decent scare...

In modern footy, any team is able outplay another (even if it's last vs first) for a quarter. The difference is the better teams do it for longer.

[YearOfTheDees 3,095]

22 minutes ago, Young Angus said:

We all thought North were an easy beat and they gave us a decent scare...

Not all of us..

[titan_uranus 22,503]

1 hour ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Tomlinson back in to the backline to help sure up Lever and May (third tall defender role).

Petty out injured (second tall forward role).

Brown/Grundy/Schache (getting a bit desperate but second tall forward role).

Smith forward (third tall forward role).

Oliver in.

Harmes and Jordon out.

Hibberd stays as sub.

 

This is a much better balanced team as there are three talls in both the backline and forward line.

I doubt we're going to go with JVR, Smith and one of Brown/Schache/Grundy.

I don't think we've played three tall forwards since the GWS game (if you allow Fritsch to be the third, as we went in with him, Brown and Smith).

We're 5-0 since then with one fewer tall, and scoring well. I doubt that's going to be changed now.

[Katrina Dee Fan 2,480]

In:  Oliver, Grundy

Out: Petty, Harmes

If one thing showed anything, it was that we really needed to have that second ruck with a side that has two rucks.  Rooey did his best, but he's not experienced enough yet.  We really could have done with Grundy yesterday.

[Deebauched 1,219]

19 minutes ago, YearOfTheDees said:

Not all of us..

Essendon getting over the line by a miserable point against the WAFL team put a dampner on my weekend. It was the useless umpires who saved them from humiliation of course.

[YearOfTheDees 3,095]

Crazy season a win on Saturday and Carlton could be back outside the eight. Only thing better than beating Carlton is destroying their dreams. Strangely I'm a lot more confident about this game than last week.  We just might be 2nd one game from the top with two game to go, I thought 2nd was a chance four weeks ago but never had 1st in my sight. Just keep winning Dees. 

[Pennant St Dee 11,329]

Can not start against Carlton like we did yesterday they would have the game won by quarter time if we allow them to dominate the clearances.

Work needs to go into our forwards set up and entries this week. Make Weitering accountable and have to play on an opponent. Also prevent Docherty, Newman and Kemp from running off their direct opponent to impact the contest.

If Clarry is cherry ripe Trac plays predominantly forward. Hibbo comes in potentially Smith plays forward to make Weitering accountable and Melk gets a defensive job on Docherty/Saad 

[YearOfTheDees 3,095]

1 minute ago, Deebauched said:

Essendon getting over the line by a miserable point against the WAFL team put a dampner on my weekend. It was the useless umpires who saved them from humiliation of course.

How good would that have been. but we can't be greedy we are getting gems each week at the moment. 

[old55 21,369]

1 hour ago, JimmyGadson said:

I'll go against the grain and say lets bring Grundy in to see if we can work it.

Last chance.

There were games earlier in the year where it worked and I think easing Max's load or more importantly, limiting exposure to constant crash and bash is somewhat important this time of year.

Grundy to start forward, we've always got the sub if it isn't working.

I'm just of the opinion that bringing a hungry Grundy in as well as Oliver against the blues, who will show up to the G will give us a big mental boost and bring some excitement to our players and supporters. (Who will hopefully show up)..

As McRae astutely noted in his presser, the game is as much above the shoulders as it is anything else.

These are the types of moves that can get a team rolling, bring some excitement and create some hype coming into the last few rounds.

I really think Grundy is made for these types of games. And we'd all want him to succeed.

I hope it happens.

Agree Jimmy, we need to go with Grundy now.

I obviously agree with everyone that it would have been far better if Petty had not been injured, and Grundy/Gawn won't be nearly as effective forward, but we're not screwed ...

With Max solo rucking we've been able to play an extra mid which has been helpful with our rotations.  Yesterday vs North (apart from Petty and Hibberd - the sub pair) - Viney, Harmes, Brayshaw, (Bowey), Jordon and Petracca - our entire midfield played least game-time in that order, and all less than 80% with Viney at 71% down from his usual mid-80s.

That gives us flexibility with the sub.  If we replace Petty with Grundy we can roll the dice, ruck Grundy heavily in the first half with Max forward part-time, and plan to sub Grundy sometime in the second half without needing to worry about an in-game injury because we have an extra runner anyway.  Hibberd can remain sub, Grundy comes off and Smith goes forward like yesterday.  Max can go full-time ruck when Grundy comes off.  The main risk with this plan is an in-game injury to May who is the irreplaceable in this set-up.  We could take some insurance and play Tomlinson as sub but that's not my preferred variation.

Out: Petty, Harmes/JJ
In: Grundy, Oliver

[Kent 2,596]

2 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Yeah was and possibly still is a fair way behind on the pecking order Roost.

Petty out might change things but Goody will most likely go with Smithy forward and Hibb as his replacement for this week.

He may also have Grundy earmarked ahead of the Shack anyway.

Shack could kick 6 and have a PB in the McGoos and still miss.

Personally i'm not a big fan of Grundy as a 'mostly' forward nor a part-time onr.  And was never sold on him as a permanent 22 as a mostly ruck option either.

To repeat what i said months ago, would make a decent sub option IF Max was coming up against 2 serious / mature oppo main rucks and needed an assist after half time or later as required.

Aside from that he's a no for mine, even as sub.  Smithy the perfect sub, with the odd run in the 22 as we saw yesterday, in order to keep him fully primed and match fit.

I still think the Shack is worthy of another opportunity

Smith cannot get near the ball. The Shack can still take contested marks which is what we are missing we are 16th on the list

[Young Angus 314]

15 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Grundy is a more than adequate ruck replacement but he's useless as a forward.

Play to your overall strengths not necessarily individual strengths.

Would you prefer Schache or Smith up forward... the cupboard is bare

Is Schache even a consideration?  What's he like now?  Him vs BBB what's the consensus?

[Ollie fan 2,173]

11 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Can not start against Carlton like we did yesterday they would have the game won by quarter time if we allow them to dominate the clearances.

We won't

[deejammin' 2,066]

In: Grundy, Oliver, Hibberd

Out: Petty 😭, Harmes, Smith (to be sub)

So much talk about Grundy not being great in the last VFL game. I watched that, terrible conditions for bigs, blowing an absolute gale. Grundy’s worst performances have coincided with terrible conditions, rain at Geelong, torrential rain in the NT, the time to play one ruck was in torrential rain, in good conditions two could be an advantage.
Without Grundy we’ve won by 1 point, 4 points and two five goal wins over teams in the bottom six, with him we’re 10-6 including wins over Collingwood and this weeks opponent Carlton, it’s hardly panic stations to have him in. If the weather looks ok Saturday he comes in. His first VFL game as a forward he got involved in much better conditions.

He’s no Petty, but Brown was ok against Brisbane for one quarter and terrible against Adelaide in a game we dominated, he’s not offering more than Grundy. Schache is soft as butter in marking contests, he’s not the answer, TMac can’t move sideways and while Smith is good, our forwardline looks too small with JVR, Smith and Melk as the talls, especially when Max is rucking 90% and unable to rest forward. Also if JVR is backup ruck there will be times where we have no true talls forward, if we do that this week Weitering will have a field day, especially if we kick how we did against North, Zeibel was intercepting at will! Grundy actually gives us an advantage in the ruck while Max rests and allows Max to rest forward with JVR rather than on the bench.
At worst we freshen Max up for finals with Grundy in the next few games before bringing in a fit TMac or Fritsch, at best we get what we saw in the preseason and first few rounds and the two rucks dominate. It’s worth noting that Gawn looked down on form and confidence coming back from injury early in the season, his best form has coincided with playing as sole ruck but perhaps it’s a coincidence? If Max maintains his form from the last few weeks and Brodie regains his best form we could see something truly special, flag winning special, none of the other options have that upside. 

 

[deejammin' 2,066]

8 minutes ago, Young Angus said:

Is Schache even a consideration?  What's he like now?  Him vs BBB what's the consensus?

I’ve watched every VFL game this season and all our AFL games and I’m yet to be convinced Schache can take a contested mark. He’s a nice kick, a good mark on a lead but he is soft in marking contests and for that reason absolutely should not play.

[Pipefitter 2,024]

IN: Clarry, Neitz

OUT: Harmes, Petty

[Roost it far 6,234]

29 minutes ago, YearOfTheDees said:

How good would that have been. but we can't be greedy we are getting gems each week at the moment. 

Would of given us no chance to get Reid

[The Stigga 879]

Can't overthink this,

Massive 3 games coming up, against arguably 3 of the most in form CONTESTED teams in it.

Let starts like yesterday happen again there may be no comeback, see Haw Coll on the weekend.

Carlton backs are set up so well at the moment, we need to re-think how we do the forward line this week...

[Gawndy the Great 7,524]

17 hours ago, bing181 said:

Goodwin confirmed that it wasn't a short-term injury so ...

In a game of inches, there goes the chance at a flag?

You look at all the other contenders and we have most of our starting 22 available... at this stage we will really only be missing Petty in the first week of finals. 21/22 is very good IMO. Pies will have several out. Port look really vulnerable in Defense and Dixon's knee is worse than BBB. Brisbane are missing Ashcroft... so nobody will have their best team available week 1. 

I think we have so many options to cover Petty, that im not stressing one iota. 

[In Harmes Way 7,565]

41 minutes ago, Katrina Dee Fan said:

In:  Oliver, Grundy

Out: Petty, Harmes

If one thing showed anything, it was that we really needed to have that second ruck with a side that has two rucks.  Rooey did his best, but he's not experienced enough yet.  We really could have done with Grundy yesterday.

I was more disappointed with the quality of the umpires’ bounces and the lack of them being recalled than I was with JVR’s performance as second ruck against decent opposition 

[fr_ap 2,148]

47 minutes ago, Kent said:

I still think the Shack is worthy of another opportunity

Smith cannot get near the ball. The Shack can still take contested marks which is what we are missing we are 16th on the list

What? Schache is one of the softest key forwards I've ever seen. Contested marking at AFL level against the best defenders is not at all his forte. 

He's not bad in space, a good field kick and set shot - closest to Brown we have. But he will be as ineffective as Brown is at contesting kicks that aren't to advantage (which we do a lot) or bringing the ball to ground, which is what the FD like most from Petty (the goals have been a bonus - he brings others into the play via his contest).  

All of our remaining options are NQR unfortunately and its not dramatic to suggest Petty's injury could be the difference between a flag or not. 

Re. Grundy - I feel like I'm on an island with this - but my concern isn't his forward play, or his ruckwork, or even his marking. My concern is our play consistently falls apart when he is involved. He's a dissynergy player - goes backwards when he should go forwards, back into congestion when he shouldnt, and zigs when he should zag. He's unpredictable - like Frost was for so long. I think this is part of the problem with he and Gawn - they're not in sync about who is doing what around the ground which led to a number of defensive lapses against oppo ruckmen earlier in the year. Yes Gawn probably thrives solo in any case - but what you're really seeing is his exemplary game knowledge & reading of the play coming to the fore, with him having the freedom & autonomy to act on it without having to worrying about what Brodie is doing, or what Brodie has been told by someone else. 

Ultimately Grundy reduces our cohesion, which is so important at the pointy end, and his weeks out of the side now wouldn't have helped. I would not be surprised if he returns and our movement & scoring regains its stagnancy.     

Edited August 7, 2023 by fr_ap

[Travy14 1,508]

4 hours ago, Tracca said:

Why would you drop Smith? Makes no sense he's been fantastic

Smith isn't fantastic.  He had 7 disposals and 2 turnovers, and he jumps at everything and leaves his man.  He is very handy as sub but just lacks the concentration for full games.  

[layzie 29,081]

7 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

What? Schache is one of the softest key forwards I've ever seen. Contested marking at AFL level against the best defenders is not at all his forte. 

He's not bad in space, a good field kick and set shot - closest to Brown we have. But he will be as ineffective as Brown is at contesting kicks that aren't to advantage (which we do a lot) or bringing the ball to ground, which is what the FD like most from Petty (the goals have been a bonus - he brings others into the play via his contest).  

All of our remaining options are NQR unfortunately and its not dramatic to suggest Petty's injury could be the difference between a flag or not. 

Re. Grundy - I feel like I'm on an island with this - but my concern isn't his forward play, or his ruckwork, or even his marking. My concern is our play consistently falls apart when he is involved. He's a dissynergy player - goes backwards when he should go forwards, back into congestion when he shouldnt, and zigs when he should zag. He's unpredictable - like Frost was for so long. I think this is part of the problem with he and Gawn - they're not in sync about who is doing what around the ground which led to a number of defensive lapses against oppo ruckmen earlier in the year. Yes Gawn probably thrives solo in any case - but what you're really seeing is his exemplary game knowledge & reading of the play coming to the fore, with him having the freedom & autonomy to act on it without having to worrying about what Brodie is doing, or what Brodie has been told by someone else. 

Ultimately Grundy reduces our cohesion, which is so important at the pointy end, and his weeks out of the side now wouldn't have helped. I would not be surprised if he returns and our movement & scoring regains its stagnancy.     

The thing that really bothers me about Schache is his inability to hold his ground and his position. It's a little thing but so underrated when someone is playing key forward. Petty, JVR, even Brown will be in good positions in a contest most of the time and it takes a lot to physically move them from it. Not saying they win the ball every time but they are where you'd expect them in a marking contest. Schache on the other hand doesn't stand up in a marking contest nearly often enough and ends up half a metre away from the spot you'd like him far too often. Whether it's from being bodied off it, overunning it, getting caught behind, he's usually 'off' the contest. The circle area of his positioning is just too large compared to others.

I'm sure his value is more once the ball is in his hands but we've got Melksham and hopefully Fritta soon for that. We need someone to crash the pack, get the ball to ground and compete in the air every time. 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

1 hour ago, Katrina Dee Fan said:

In:  Oliver, Grundy

Out: Petty, Harmes

If one thing showed anything, it was that we really needed to have that second ruck with a side that has two rucks.  Rooey did his best, but he's not experienced enough yet.  We really could have done with Grundy yesterday.

JVR looked exhausted.

[Garbo 1,334]

I’d keep Smith in the 22 only if we play him as a fwd, Pig gets elevated to the 22 from sub and Harmes is the only out for Oliver.

I wouldn’t be messing round with Grundy, Brown or Tmac fwd, Fritch will be back for finals and will be a direct replacement for Smith then.  

[Katrina Dee Fan 2,480]

1 hour ago, In Harmes Way said:

I was more disappointed with the quality of the umpires’ bounces and the lack of them being recalled than I was with JVR’s performance as second ruck against decent opposition 

I wasn't disappointed in JVR, I'm just saying in a game like that, given that in the first quarter Gawn was being rested for sequential hit outs, I'd have preferred to have Grundy at the realm instead of the inexperience of JVR, if Gawn gets injured, without Grundy, we're cooked.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Katrina Dee Fan