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Dees considering big trade plays



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20 hours ago, durango said:

There is no way any recruit is worth 3 first round picks without playing senior games in the AFL, you don't burn your picks on a player who may turn out to be Jimmy Toumpas.

TOUCHE, but why did you have to bring up J.T Gawd I still have nightmares about it!

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Toumpas is a clone of Nick Daicos. 

They have extremely similar attributes and physical makeup.

The only differences were that Toumpas was brought into a rabble of a club, played his first year under Neeld with a limited pre-season due to groin issues and the weight of supporter expectations clearly got the better of him too.

Can you imagine if he was brought into the side now?

He'd have been given the entire first year to develop at VFL level due to his limited workload, he'd be given a defined role in a top two VFL side which has a fantastic culture and he would have been brimming with confidence coming into his first game.

I often think of the amount of high end talent we had during those years, and how different it would have been had they been brought in to our club now. Not saying all would have gone on to be superstars but clearly they were at such a shocking disadvantage as soon as they stepped through the door.

The comparison to where we are now is crazy.

 

Edited by JimmyGadson
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10 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Toumpas is a clone of Nick Daicos. 

They have extremely similar attributes and physical makeup.

The only differences were that Toumpas was brought into a rabble of a club, played his first year under Neeld with a limited pre-season due to groin issues and the weight of supporter expectations clearly got the better of him too.

Can you imagine if he was brought into the side now?

He'd have been given the entire first year to develop at VFL level due to his limited workload, he'd be given a defined role in a top two VFL side which has a fantastic culture and he would have been brimming with confidence coming into his first game.

I often think of the amount of high end talent we had during those years, and how different it would have been had they been brought in to our club now. Not saying all would have gone on to be superstars but clearly they were at such a shocking disadvantage as soon as they stepped through the door.

The comparison to where we are now is crazy.

 

image.jpeg.32bcec5bc2988a8b776aaf6f2076cd93.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Toumpas is a clone of Nick Daicos. 

They have extremely similar attributes and physical makeup.

The only differences were that Toumpas was brought into a rabble of a club, played his first year under Neeld with a limited pre-season due to groin issues and the weight of supporter expectations clearly got the better of him too.

Can you imagine if he was brought into the side now?

He'd have been given the entire first year to develop at VFL level due to his limited workload, he'd be given a defined role in a top two VFL side which has a fantastic culture and he would have been brimming with confidence coming into his first game.

I often think of the amount of high end talent we had during those years, and how different it would have been had they been brought in to our club now. Not saying all would have gone on to be superstars but clearly they were at such a shocking disadvantage as soon as they stepped through the door.

The comparison to where we are now is crazy.

 

so true I remember us getting Scully Trengove, Grimes, Taspcott all who impressed at AFL level early. Mates loved Grimes, great interceptor and leader of the backline. he was excellent Tapscott was close to BOG first game in a hard fought round 1 against Sydney. I would never have thought none would go on to have really good careers. Gysberts another who racked up big numbers very early on at AFL level then lost all confidence later. 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Toumpas is a clone of Nick Daicos. 

They have extremely similar attributes and physical makeup.

The only differences were that Toumpas was brought into a rabble of a club, played his first year under Neeld with a limited pre-season due to groin issues and the weight of supporter expectations clearly got the better of him too.

Can you imagine if he was brought into the side now?

He'd have been given the entire first year to develop at VFL level due to his limited workload, he'd be given a defined role in a top two VFL side which has a fantastic culture and he would have been brimming with confidence coming into his first game.

I often think of the amount of high end talent we had during those years, and how different it would have been had they been brought in to our club now. Not saying all would have gone on to be superstars but clearly they were at such a shocking disadvantage as soon as they stepped through the door.

The comparison to where we are now is crazy.

 

Can you imagine if he was brought into the side now?

1 He would be playing at Casey , If that

2 He was an extremely poor pick given his previous injury concerns

3 Our recruiters were garbage around this time, and whoever gave this pick the thumbs up should still hang there heads in shame!

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To me the possible trade we do, is with GWS and maybe involves us giving 13 to GWS to get them ahead of Sydney and then maybe we get their 15 and 18 or 19 for our 37 and a F pick.

If the clubs can agree to not take who the other wants, then there are advantages for both clubs.

For example if we took George with 15, as I don’t think Sydney would take him that high, given other available players and their needs, we could still possibly get Jefferson at 18-19.

If we do a side deal with GWS on who we take, then they could even give us 18 and keep 19 to start the next night. That will allow them more dealing and still get who they want. I still believe they will take Gruzewski and won’t want Jefferson and Cadman.

I think Sydney would want Barnett, as he is a need for them, or will grab a slider who they can’t resist at their pick. 

Anyway we will know all in a few days.

Edited by Redleg
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4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Toumpas is a clone of Nick Daicos. 

They have extremely similar attributes and physical makeup.

The only differences were that Toumpas was brought into a rabble of a club, played his first year under Neeld with a limited pre-season due to groin issues and the weight of supporter expectations clearly got the better of him too.

Can you imagine if he was brought into the side now?

He'd have been given the entire first year to develop at VFL level due to his limited workload, he'd be given a defined role in a top two VFL side which has a fantastic culture and he would have been brimming with confidence coming into his first game.

I often think of the amount of high end talent we had during those years, and how different it would have been had they been brought in to our club now. Not saying all would have gone on to be superstars but clearly they were at such a shocking disadvantage as soon as they stepped through the door.

The comparison to where we are now is crazy.

 

I think it's fair to say it couldn't have gone much worse for Toump in year 1 but it was only 1 year before Roos/JT took over and our player development was immediately back on track. 

The Toump never got his hips right, including at Port Adelaide. And his kicking was nice but just not quick or accurate enough to be a half back weapon. Didn't show the contested ball ability to be a midfielder, where as even year 1 Daicos hasn't looked worried stepping in on ball.

I think it's fair to say Jimmy was overdrafted as well as awfully developed in year 1.

But Weid and probably Laurie are cautionary tales with this current regime. As are guys like Riley Collier-Dawkins, Cal Coleman Jones and Thomson Dow as top 21 picks to a Richmond program that otherwise couldn't do any wrong for 5 or so years there. Or Dyl Stephens being pick 5 to Sydney (if you want a high pick and a great club) and perhaps being the most poorly performed of Sydney's young mids they've drafted in recent years.

2 later first rounders to get up the draft is well worth a go. 3 is upping the risk and putting a lot of pressure on a player. No matter how slowly you develop them they'd still get the tag of being a guy who had 3 firsts spent on them. Suddenly you're back putting undue pressure on young kids again. 

 

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  • Whispering_Jack changed the title to Dees considering big trade plays

24 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

A delphi would not be able to read much into that...

I will have a stab. We may think there is a forward going to be available below 13. There is someone in the top 6 we want and I have no idea who but Ginbey stikes me a Jason Taylor type. We could be doing a deal around the top and I'd say around 19 as well. 

Edited by Robbie57
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36 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

2 later first rounders to get up the draft is well worth a go. 3 is upping the risk and putting a lot of pressure on a player. No matter how slowly you develop them they'd still get the tag of being a guy who had 3 firsts spent on them. Suddenly you're back putting undue pressure on young kids again. 

I agree but the opposing argument is also valid. That being that we have a team that is already hard to break into with Bowey, JVR and maybe Turner, Woewodin and Howes etc wanting their chances, to pick up a kid who's upside is fringe at best seems like a waste of resources. Given our draft position it will be very hard for the 'class of 22' to have any impact on our AFL team in the next two to three years.

If Taylor and co. get an AFL talent into our side in the next two years from this years draft they will have done a very good job.

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2 hours ago, Redleg said:

To me the possible trade we do, is with GWS and maybe involves us giving 13 to GWS to get them ahead of Sydney and then maybe we get their 15 and 18 or 19 for our 37 and a F pick.

If the clubs can agree

What are the rules around draft tampering and what are the likely penalties?  

I think what you are suggesting is very dangerous ground and high risk for low reward given the uncertainty around drafting.

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I have looked at the analysis by Kevin Sheehan and found he compares players to current champions without them playing a game of AFL football.

I have watched football from the early 1950's and have found that players who have been compared to great player have such great expectations on the potential that they either reach their potential or like Colin Sylvia find the pressure too much physically and mentally that they under perform.

These so called experts should not do this, but talk about their foot skills, pace, agility, marking, endurance, goal kicking, awareness and handball skills so they know were they need to improve to make them into the player they need to become to play AFL football for a long time.

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6 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

My information is that the top four picks are virtually set in stone.

1. GWS Giants - Aaron Cadman 

2. North Melbourne - Harry Sheezel

3. Brisbane Lions - Will Ashcroft (bid matched)

4. George Wardlaw 

Brisbane would be loving that outcome.

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30 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

What are the rules around draft tampering and what are the likely penalties?  

I think what you are suggesting is very dangerous ground and high risk for low reward given the uncertainty around drafting.

I am unaware of the Draft Tampering Rules, but I think clubs in certain circumstances, sometimes tell other clubs, players they are and are not interested in?

Who is telling draft experts which players they are interested in then?

Is it draft tampering for 2 clubs to do a deal, on the basis they might get the player they want?

That to me is not draft tampering?

To me, draft tampering is a Club getting a player to say he will leave if another Club selects him, or telling a player to play dead all year, or to make up some false story/issue about himself, etc.

I agree with the uncertainty of drafting statement.

Edited by Redleg
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47 minutes ago, deespicable me said:

I agree but the opposing argument is also valid. That being that we have a team that is already hard to break into with Bowey, JVR and maybe Turner, Woewodin and Howes etc wanting their chances, to pick up a kid who's upside is fringe at best seems like a waste of resources. Given our draft position it will be very hard for the 'class of 22' to have any impact on our AFL team in the next two to three years.

If Taylor and co. get an AFL talent into our side in the next two years from this years draft they will have done a very good job.

From the 2021 grand final side we’ve already replaced Jackson with Grundy which might mean one spot opens up pretty soon. Hibbo doesn’t have much left. Gawn and May won’t go on forever. Pickett not locked in long term. McDonald and Brown both big watch and see guys.

And there’s a bunch of lesser guys from ANB, Harmes, Sparrow, Spargo, Brayshaw, even Rivers and Bowser who I wouldn’t say are 100% locks for best 22 at Melbourne in 2024 onwards.

Im not trying to be negative I’m just saying teams change so quickly these days. If we draft good players they’ll play games in years 2-4 post draft. Whether they’ll highly talented skill guys or more role players still developing their upside. If they’re good they’ll get games once they’re physically ready. 

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

From the 2021 grand final side we’ve already replaced Jackson with Grundy which might mean one spot opens up pretty soon. Hibbo doesn’t have much left. Gawn and May won’t go on forever. Pickett not locked in long term. McDonald and Brown both big watch and see guys.

And there’s a bunch of lesser guys from ANB, Harmes, Sparrow, Spargo, Brayshaw, even Rivers and Bowser who I wouldn’t say are 100% locks for best 22 at Melbourne in 2024 onwards.

Im not trying to be negative I’m just saying teams change so quickly these days. If we draft good players they’ll play games in years 2-4 post draft. Whether they’ll highly talented skill guys or more role players still developing their upside. If they’re good they’ll get games once they’re physically ready. 

Poor judgement on Gus again. For a multiple position choice player of 3 or 4 years a star in our program and AFL and one injured  in between why class him as a "lesser"  player at our Club.  You will vote his disposal I know as a demerit which is exagerated when compared to some of our other top players. 

Major issues is where we get the best team wise out of Gus ie wing half back or in the middle? 

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3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Im not trying to be negative I’m just saying teams change so quickly these days. If we draft good players they’ll play games in years 2-4 post draft. Whether they’ll highly talented skill guys or more role players still developing their upside. If they’re good they’ll get games once they’re physically ready. 

Yeah again I mainly agree with you, lists do change quite a lot, and surprisingly quickly, I was just putting forward an opposing view.  I think they are both worthwhile views and quite opposite to one another. The other thing to take into account is money. Every list needs balance whereby the wages of your bottom paid players, depth and developing players, can be just as important as your stars. I will be surprised though if our 2022 recruits get much of a show in their first 2 years. But hopefully it makes them hungry.

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7 hours ago, durango said:

I have looked at the analysis by Kevin Sheehan and found he compares players to current champions without them playing a game of AFL football.

I have watched football from the early 1950's and have found that players who have been compared to great player have such great expectations on the potential that they either reach their potential or like Colin Sylvia find the pressure too much physically and mentally that they under perform.

These so called experts should not do this, but talk about their foot skills, pace, agility, marking, endurance, goal kicking, awareness and handball skills so they know were they need to improve to make them into the player they need to become to play AFL football for a long time.

there's actually a theory that chappello has which is that if you can't compare common traits in an upcoming player with an existing player then the former will be up against it to make it at the top level

Edited by whatwhat say what
o not i
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5 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

there's actually a theory that chappello has which is that if you can't compare common traits in an upcoming player with an existing player then the former will be up against it to make it at the top level

Does Steve Smith prove that the theory is not always true?

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16 hours ago, durango said:

I have looked at the analysis by Kevin Sheehan and found he compares players to current champions without them playing a game of AFL football.

I have watched football from the early 1950's and have found that players who have been compared to great player have such great expectations on the potential that they either reach their potential or like Colin Sylvia find the pressure too much physically and mentally that they under perform.

These so called experts should not do this, but talk about their foot skills, pace, agility, marking, endurance, goal kicking, awareness and handball skills so they know were they need to improve to make them into the player they need to become to play AFL football for a long time.

What do you want him to compare players to? Some of those players will reach, or surpass, those comparisons. It’s fine, as long as the comparison is enlightening an aspect of their skill set and not just “They will be as good as star player X”

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1 minute ago, rpfc said:

What do you want him to compare players to? Some of those players will reach, or surpass, those comparisons. It’s fine, as long as the comparison is enlightening an aspect of their skill set and not just “They will be as good as star player X”

Why compare a player to a current player unless you want to talk up that recruit to clubs.

How many players compared to Cripps or Oliver will become as good as Cripps or Oliver or even better.

With the pressure of expectation will cause that player mental harm by beating himself up at not becoming the great player he was expected to be.

Player who had fathers who we great players often never reach the heights their fathers did just because they are always compared to them.

Players like Jack Watts, Sam Weideman and Callum Brown had expectations of greatness only to fail because of the pressure they no longer enjoy their football career.

There is an old saying 'if you love your job you'll never work a day in your life'.

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