Centre Bounce Analysis from Grand Final

[Demonland 65,835]

This was posted in another thread but I think it deserves it's own.

 

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

I don't agree with everything in the analysis and he didn't always chose the right examples to underline his points but I love the depth of discussion.

Gawn and Jackson are the ultimate one-two punch. You have tap dominance or ground dominance at your disposal.

One of the main takeaways for me, is the influence of Viney at stoppages due to his strength - he is always in prime position and makes space for our guns to go to work.

On the flipside, Bevo was stuck with the conundrum of Treloar, who was red hot around the ground but was the weak link at stoppages.

Also, it has colour-coded spreadsheets so it has to be good.

[binman 38,744]

1 hour ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I don't agree with everything in the analysis and he didn't always chose the right examples to underline his points but I love the depth of discussion.

Gawn and Jackson are the ultimate one-two punch. You have tap dominance or ground dominance at your disposal.

One of the main takeaways for me, is the influence of Viney at stoppages due to his strength - he is always in prime position and makes space for our guns to go to work.

On the flipside, Bevo was stuck with the conundrum of Treloar, who was red hot around the ground but was the weak link at stoppages.

Also, it has colour-coded spreadsheets so it has to be good.

I have watched about 10 minutes of it, but will watch the whole thing at some point. Love the effort he's gone to.

I'm not sure if he mentions it, but i reckon a feature of our center square clearances system in the last four games or so has been to take any opportunity to knock the ball forward, often instead of trying to collect it, particularly when jacko is in the ruck. The toe pock from Viney in the run of 3 goals in the third is a good example of what i mean.

With Jackson, and Gawn for that matter, being so mobile we basically have an extra mid to run onto any loose ball.

Looking at his page he has doe similar analysis of a Portland footy match, so i'm guessing he might be doing some coaching? That and streaming role playing video games.

I'm amazed there is so little of this sort of stuff - basically none. I'm convinced there is market for it, albeit a niche one. There is a whole eco system of this sort of video analysis in US sports - from the amateur right through to really sophisticated pro level quality content. 

For example a video analyzing down the ground video would be great. I'd love to watch a whole game form that angle as in the micro clips fox deigns to show in various shows it is really revealing in terms of structure, set ups etc etc.

How hard would it be for say the AFL (who i think own that vison, and share it with the clubs, as part of their deal with Champion data)to offer that angle on their website given they obviously have it for Champion data purposes? I mean it's just vison, not ASIO secrets (which would would probably be easier to get hold of!)

Someone like Craig Jennings could make some money from this sort of stuff i'm sure

Edited October 5, 2021 by binman

[Jjrogan 1,235]

When it all clicks its very reminiscent of a fast break from a tip off in basketball. Quick hands, release to a player in motion, who perhaps releases to another with no direct opponent.  

No coindence that Jackson and Petracca have elite basketball backgrounds, they are always moving forward sensing/looking for the break.  Oliver is a once in a generation freak with his hands (and burst from stoppage) and Viney at the coal face allows the other three to shine.  Just a great balanced combination

Poetry when it comes off and they will embarass teams next year.  

[Fat Tony 4,465]

10 minutes ago, binman said:

I have watched about 10 minutes of it, but will watch the whole thing at some point. Love the effort he's gone to.

I'm not sure if he mentions it, but i reckon a feature of our center square clearances system in the last four games or so has been to take any opportunity to knock the ball forward, often instead of trying to collect it, particularly when jacko is in the ruck. The toe pock from Viney in the run of 3 goals in the third is a good example of what i mean.

With Jackns, and Gawn for that matter, being so mobile we basically have an extra mid to run onto any loose ball.

Looking at his page he has doe similar analysis of a Portland footy match, so i'm guessing he might be doing some coaching? That and streaming role playing video games.

I'm amazed there is little of this sort of stuff - i'm convinced there is market for it, albeit a niche one. There is whole eco system of this sort of video analysis in US sports - from the amateur right through to really sophisticated pro level quality content. 

For example a vide analyzing down the ground video. I'd love to watch a whole game form that angle as in the micro clips fox sdeign to show in various shows it is really revealing in terms of structure, set ups etc etc.

How hard would it be for say the AFL (who i think own that vison, and share it with the clubs, as part of their deal with Champion data)to offer that angle on their website given they obviously have it for Champion data purposes. I mean its just vison, not ASIO secrets (which would would probably be easier to get hold of!)

Someone like Craig Jennings could make some money from this sort of stuff i'm sure

I watched the GWS game from behind the goals and it is probably the best place to analyse the game. (Centre wing is more enjoyable though and feels more natural.) I could see a day that the coaches boxes are switched to behind the goals.

[tiers 2,783]

9 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I watched the GWS game from behind the goals and it is probably the best place to analyse the game. (Centre wing is more enjoyable though and feels more natural.) I could see a day that the coaches boxes are switched to behind the goals.

Behind the goals has always been my preferred viewing aspect. There is so much extra to see and absorb that I am surprised that coaches don't have observers behind the goals in all matches.

I would also suggest observers at the top of the grandstand to view the match as a contest of ants. Ball and player movements and set ups are much clearer than from ground level or lower level.

[Gawndy the Great 7,621]

watched almost all the analysis with exception to Q2. Im not happy with the sentiment that Q3 stoppage wins were 'lucky' to fall our way, because luck would have a way of evening out. 

The other thing that struck me was that in Q3 the 2 centre clearances won by the Doggies were actually by free kick rather than talent alone. 

Good work by the analyst, but there is a bit of bias  in the story telling. 

[tiers 2,783]

To me the main difference was that doggies set up to allow their lefties to sweep and kick by gathering the ball from the back of the pack and running around. Makes bont look good but is slow.

Whereas the dees set up, particularly in the third quarter, to come out of the front of the pack and keep moving to goal. Daisy highlighted this in her commentary. Tracca's explosive exits for goals 2 and 3 in the first set (Fritsch and Brown) were masterful examples of playing to win, not look good. Similarly goals 2 and 3 at the end (Sparrow and Oliver) were again masterful examples.

Viney, Petracca, Oliver and either Gawn or Jackson have to be, by some measure, the greatest midfield group going around today.

[binman 38,744]

1 hour ago, tiers said:

To me the main difference was that doggies set up to allow their lefties to sweep and kick by gathering the ball from the back of the pack and running around. Makes bont look good but is slow.

 

I reckon we exposed this set up in each of the three games we played against them, in large part because of our defensive pressure, in particular out ability to limit the ability of Libba to extract the ball. 

But even when they did win the ground ball we are great at putting pressure on the receiver, who doesn't have time and space to run around and has to kick from the defensive side of the contest. Which just plays into or hands in terms of intercepting the dump kick.

Other teams struggled to put that same level of pressure on, particularly in the first third of the season, hence why they were so devastating from center clearances. Players like Bont and Macra could receive from Libba on the outside, run and carry laterally and then forward and be super damaging with their beautiful, penetrating kicks inside 50.

What was interesting about the vison in that clip is the implication their system is built around libba, Bont and Mcrae.

In terms of us getting it out the front of centre clearances, whilst we no doubt set up pretty aggressively (because we are confident of winning the ball back if the oppo win the clearance) i'm not sure that is about our set up as such, more the ability of all three of our starting mids to either break tackles and/or release the ball while being tackled.

In that way our system is built around the strengths (skill wise and literal) of Tracc, Oliver and Viney.

And of course maxy. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by binman

[drdrake 3,045]

We did the same to the Bulldogs the first time we played them.  We got aggressive with our taps hitting forward and push the dogs under the ball.  It helps that the 2 rucks we have can also win the ground ball in the middle.  The dogs just didn't adjust their sweeper left the front open and we took them to the cleaners. 

[DEE fence 4,528]

The thing that Clarkson identified that I think is worth a mention is our ability to step through tackles and the 'high hands' handball. A few years ago Hawthorn/Geelong/Footscray were getting away with many throws, allowing them to clear quickly. Our point of difference (started by Oliver and not given enough credit for, because it is as game changing as Aaron Davey's forward defensive pressure was) is the handball he gets away above his head. This gives us a hot knife through butter advantage when being tackled. And while many players have adopted it, it started with Melbourne. 

Love the effort the guy put in  I am often given to thinking stuff just happens at centre bounce, but know there is more going on than I can ever comprehend.

Also that nuffies that potted Jack Viney need to own it publicly.

[Gate 5 21]

I didn't appreciate how good an in and under midfielder Viney is until seeing those clearances in slow-mo. 

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,027]

5 hours ago, binman said:

I have watched about 10 minutes of it, but will watch the whole thing at some point. Love the effort he's gone to.

I'm not sure if he mentions it, but i reckon a feature of our center square clearances system in the last four games or so has been to take any opportunity to knock the ball forward, often instead of trying to collect it, particularly when jacko is in the ruck. The toe pock from Viney in the run of 3 goals in the third is a good example of what i mean.

With Jackson, and Gawn for that matter, being so mobile we basically have an extra mid to run onto any loose ball.

Looking at his page he has doe similar analysis of a Portland footy match, so i'm guessing he might be doing some coaching? That and streaming role playing video games.

I'm amazed there is so little of this sort of stuff - basically none. I'm convinced there is market for it, albeit a niche one. There is a whole eco system of this sort of video analysis in US sports - from the amateur right through to really sophisticated pro level quality content. 

For example a video analyzing down the ground video would be great. I'd love to watch a whole game form that angle as in the micro clips fox deigns to show in various shows it is really revealing in terms of structure, set ups etc etc.

How hard would it be for say the AFL (who i think own that vison, and share it with the clubs, as part of their deal with Champion data)to offer that angle on their website given they obviously have it for Champion data purposes? I mean it's just vison, not ASIO secrets (which would would probably be easier to get hold of!)

Someone like Craig Jennings could make some money from this sort of stuff i'm sure

ASIO secrets are in the dump master on Constitution Avenue. Cleared at 8pm Wednesday nights. 

[Older demon 2,175]

Gawn's ruck work was outsanding and Jacksons ground work was exceptional. Extraordinary detailed analysis and graphics not sure I agree with everything and according to the commentator we had a lot of luck or things always fell our way, I counted about 16 things that went our way.

[tiers 2,783]

15 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

The thing that Clarkson identified that I think is worth a mention is our ability to step through tackles and the 'high hands' handball. Our point of difference (started by Oliver and not given enough credit for, because it is as game changing as Aaron Davey's forward defensive pressure was) is the handball he gets away above his head.

 

The youtube vision of Clarry before he was drafted showed him handballing over his head from within packs. It was the feature I liked most about him

[Gate 5 21]

6 minutes ago, Older demon said:

Gawn's ruck work was outsanding and Jacksons ground work was exceptional. Extraordinary detailed analysis and graphics not sure I agree with everything and according to the commentator we had a lot of luck or things always fell our way, I counted about 16 things that went our way.

When Norm lifted the curse he lifted big time

[Wrecker46 2,674]

7 minutes ago, tiers said:

The youtube vision of Clarry before he was drafted showed him handballing over his head from within packs. It was the feature I liked most about him

Did you ever dream he would do that  type of havoc in a grand final? Ensure the Dees win, and not even contest for the norm smith medal??

 

 

 

[DaveyJones'sLocker 585]

Jack Viney got 12 lucky clearances for the game 

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

I appreciate the effort that he went to in creating the video and he clearly wants to know more about how these happen. Enough to make a 50 minute video on the centre bounces for a game only twice that length. However I think he generally misses the most important parts of the centre clearance.

He places an undue importance on getting front position. The important part is that front position is only situationally important and often it can be quite a detriment, which the Dogs succumbed to. The inside space is only important to own if there is actually space there (ie, between the player and the ball) and if there isn't space there then you are just getting lost in the mess. The reason why Melbourne were so successful is because they owned the outside space more often, so the clearance wins resulted in damaging entries rather than shallow scraps out of congestion.

I'll do a bit more at some point on some important clearances from the game but it's important to note that these weren't won from owning the inside, they were actually won from owning the outside. This resulted in the Dogs struggling to get value from their wins and, conversely, allowed the Melbourne wins to be genuine scoring threats.

[Wrecker46 2,674]

4 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

I appreciate the effort that he went to in creating the video and he clearly wants to know more about how these happen. Enough to make a 50 minute video on the centre bounces for a game only twice that length. However I think he generally misses the most important parts of the centre clearance.

He places an undue importance on getting front position. The important part is that front position is only situationally important and often it can be quite a detriment, which the Dogs succumbed to. The inside space is only important to own if there is actually space there (ie, between the player and the ball) and if there isn't space there then you are just getting lost in the mess. The reason why Melbourne were so successful is because they owned the outside space more often, so the clearance wins resulted in damaging entries rather than shallow scraps out of congestion.

I'll do a bit more at some point on some important clearances from the game but it's important to note that these weren't won from owning the inside, they were actually won from owning the outside. This resulted in the Dogs struggling to get value from their wins and, conversely, allowed the Melbourne wins to be genuine scoring threats.

Agree. In previous years Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw and Petracca were see ball get ball but alot of the time they were all going for it at once. This year thanks to the players maturing, an emphasis on selflessness and some strategic help from Yze we were alot better on the outside.

[durango 1,984]

I think the players now realise that there are 4 midfielders at the centre bounce not 3 as in the past.

And as some commentators pointed out that these 4 Gawn Oliver Petracca and Viney are now at the stage where they are in career best form and then along comes Jackson and forces Gawn to become better as a result of Jackson's form.

The second string midfielders are at this stage nowhere near these 5 so the club has to get some more 2nd tier midfields to replace Nathan and Aaron.

[Fritta and Turner 3,758]

You sure the video isn't just to get me watching someone drawing 'filthy pictures'?

[rjay 23,945]

16 hours ago, DEE fence said:

(started by Oliver and not given enough credit for, because it is as game changing as Aaron Davey's forward defensive pressure was) is the handball he gets away above his head.

Brett Lovett was a master of this...

...getting his arms up and away from the tackle then giving off the ball.

[rjay 23,945]

21 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

No coindence that Jackson and Petracca have elite basketball backgrounds, they are always moving forward sensing/looking for the break. 

Not always...the centre bounce at the 22 mins on this video shows a couple of things.

Jackson and Oliver have hands on the same ball.

Jackson is smart enough to know that Oliver has some momentum and is moving forward so leaves the ball.

Then Jackson spreads back to cover space and give an extra option.

The on ball team have really refined their team game now.

My biggest criticism in the past was not using each other and playing more as individuals than a team.

They really put that to bed this year culminating in a superb GF performance.

[leave it to deever 15,951]

23 hours ago, Demonland said:

This was posted in another thread but I think it deserves it's own.

 

Who let the dogs out?

Not us😀