3 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

 

 

The article you guys are talking about isn't listing his salary at the Dees or his expected salary at the Dees, and it says right off the bat the clubs generally have to pay overs to lure someone away.

"Luring a target out of his original home typically forces the new club to pay overs, while destination clubs are often happy to pay even more for free agents knowing they won't have to part with a draft pick."

The price you have to pay: All the top trade targets and their market value

 

What do you think we need to pay him Nev.

7 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

What do you think we need to pay him Nev.

TBH it's not something I take a massive amount of interest in, so not an expert by any stretch. My guess would be he would be on about $600k PA with a new contract. To me, that would seem about right for his BnF placings, age and leadership history.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/510958

In 2019, the avers she player wage was more than $401,000 for players who featured at AFL.

Average, not median, but it gives an understanding of what types of salaries we are talking, when you consider that the bottom 6 are going to be on <$150k (rookies are on ~$80k, minimum wage for a 3rd year player (so bottom level journeyman is about $110k both plus match fees).

I think it's fair to say about 10-12 players in each team well be above the $400k mark.

4 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Jack Viney plays his best football when he is assigned a clear defensive task and then counterattacks when the opportunities come.  It focuses him and also minimises the weakness of his 'impulsive' ball use because the occasions when a tagger gets the ball are rarely part of plan A. 

Put him on the opposition's best and/or softest inside ball user and tell him to dominate that opponent.

When he's not doing that, put him up forward and tell him to hunt at will and to be as impulsive as he wants.

Do it right and we'll be talking about Mitch Wallis as the proverbial poor man's Jack Viney.

The problem with Viney is is not quick and lack of football awareness if his role was one of doing what Harmes did in 2018 he would be a complete liability to the side as for putting him forward well  they would just run off him all day.

3 hours ago, drysdale demon said:

Yeah means Yeah

hmmmm im just a simple person Drysdale.

Is that a positive or negative yeah

On 9/25/2020 at 11:56 AM, Dannyz said:

Jack Viney has resigned for 4 years. 

Clearly speculation, otherwise the club would have announced it by now. Absolutely no reason to hold off an announcement if indeed true

If there are real suitors, then even if he wants to stay it is in his interest to let his manager field offers.  Melbourne can match if they choose, he can take less and stay if he chooses, or he can take the best offer and run.  He has all the power, and I imagine his manager will be chasing all offers so as it furthers his position.  Will probably not announce anything until this has all had a chance to play out.  Nice if he has already signed, but why hold back the announcement unless it is ‘pending other offers’?

Why are we trying to lowball him with a contract after the ridiculous contracts given to duds like kk and mediocre types like Tomlinson and preuss. Give him a decent contact you muppet Mahoney, or even better go work somewhere else. 

Not sure how people on here would know what the negotiations are inc what the club is offering Jack 

1 hour ago, Hogan2014 said:

Not sure how people on here would know what the negotiations are inc what the club is offering Jack 

I know for a fact that he signed a contract, then he just read it, then he signed a five year contract, then it was four years and then we low-balled him so maybe he didn’t sign. 

Edited September 27, 20204 yr by Ethan Tremblay

13 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It would literally rip the heart and soul out of this club if Viney were to play elsewhere.

I don’t want to even think about this being a possibility.

We’re too fragile as a club (and as a list) to deal with the potential fallout from this. Even a strong and confident club would struggle to lose such an important franchise player, and we’re not remotely that.

It’s bringing back fears of the super shrewd list management decisions made during the Neeld apocalyptic period.

Stop playing poker MFC, and re-sign him immediately please.

 

When the coach talks about the club needing to grow up and be more ruthless after the Freo loss, for mine the fans need to follow suit. I bang on about this a bit but globally we as a sport are miles behind. I was born in 77, it was footy/cricket and loyalty to the club/badge over the heart. Times have very much changed. 
 

Kawahi Leonard was traded to Toronto In the NBA with 1 year left on his contract. He and his team won the championship, he left after that one season. NHL captains are traded/leave in free agency frequently. St Louis Blues captain who lead them to a Stanley Cup last seasons is threatening to leave as a UFA this season. The great Messi wants to leave Barca. 
 

Is Jack Viney going to learn to kick on both feet? Is he going to learn how to dish off a slick handball before being caught in a tackle and often for holding the ball? Can he improve on his consistency over a season? Is his future upside higher than Brayshaw, Oli or Tracc?

For me it’s no to all of the above. Just because I believe that doesn’t mean I don't have emotional ties to Jack and his dad as Dees legends. 

Can his value as an UFA give us a greater chance to win a flag than his value/cost to us as a player?

I believe yes. We need cap space and outside skill and run, his leaving give us the option to save money/trade for/UFA some of what we need imho.

I was born in 1971. I only freely disclose this to Demonlanders because I know none of you. I have life experience.

This talk of ruthlessness is just carp - so 1970s.  It’s now all about EQ and understanding what motivates the players, as individuals and how they fit into the collective.

I have real concerns for this club if we don’t manage to re-sign Viney. I thought he’s exactly what Goodwin wanted - why then did we trade the likes of Jack Watts?

I loathe incompetence, and I am concerned that it may be unfolding here. Yet again.

 

Spot on Cards great post.

I hope he’s signed

You don’t trade culture

Spot on Ron great post.

1 hour ago, Cards13 said:

When the coach talks about the club needing to grow up and be more ruthless after the Freo loss, for mine the fans need to follow suit. I bang on about this a bit but globally we as a sport are miles behind. I was born in 77, it was footy/cricket and loyalty to the club/badge over the heart. Times have very much changed. 
 

Kawahi Leonard was traded to Toronto In the NBA with 1 year left on his contract. He and his team won the championship, he left after that one season. NHL captains are traded/leave in free agency frequently. St Louis Blues captain who lead them to a Stanley Cup last seasons is threatening to leave as a UFA this season. The great Messi wants to leave Barca. 
 

Is Jack Viney going to learn to kick on both feet? Is he going to learn how to dish off a slick handball before being caught in a tackle and often for holding the ball? Can he improve on his consistency over a season? Is his future upside higher than Brayshaw, Oli or Tracc?

For me it’s no to all of the above. Just because I believe that doesn’t mean I don't have emotional ties to Jack and his dad as Dees legends. 

Can his value as an UFA give us a greater chance to win a flag than his value/cost to us as a player?

I believe yes. We need cap space and outside skill and run, his leaving give us the option to save money/trade for/UFA some of what we need imho.

I don't think you can compare Aussie Rules with NBA/NHL for the simple reason those teams are comprised of such small squads. Aussie Rules has 22 players each week but really you need a squad of at least 30 players that can rotate through the team if you want to be successful.

Having said that though how have the Spurs fared since Kawhi left? How did the Raptors go this year? Knocked out by the Celtics in round 1 of the playoffs?

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think you can compare Aussie Rules with NBA/NHL for the simple reason those teams are comprised of such small squads. Aussie Rules has 22 players each week but really you need a squad of at least 30 players that can rotate through the team if you want to be successful.

Having said that though how have the Spurs fared since Kawhi left? How did the Raptors go this year? Knocked out by the Celtics in round 1 of the playoffs?

raptors did pretty well this year without leonard - qualified second in the east, knocked off by boston in the second round

22 hours ago, A F said:

I disagree entirely. He tries to go for the first possession. That's not defensive, that's attacking. 

OK. Viney does multiple roles, and it varied depending on who is in the centre with him. Here is one against St Kilda, without Oliver. It's Viney, Brayshaw and Petracca.

This is set up for Petracca to have the who far side open to him. Viney blocks out Steele, Brayshaw gets inside Jones to block and Petracca beats Ross and gets to the far side with space. This is shown below:

Unfortunately the play breaks down because Brayshaw can't get inside Jones to block him out, so Jones gets the ball before it gets to Petracca. Viney, on the other hand, gets Steele out of position and is therefor a non-factor in the stoppage. This is shown below.

I show this as an example of how important these roles are in stoppages.

Here is another, with the play designed for Oliver. Oliver is to beat Shiel to the tap to the far side, with Viney blocking out Merrett to create space and Melksham playing purely defensively on Stringer (near side).

Essentially:

Merrett give Viney the slip early, which puts the play in jeopardy.

But Viney is able to recover to win body position to push Merrett into the contest, which keeps the play alive.

Oliver gets a little hold from Shiel, but because Viney has done his job so well on Merrett he's now clear and able to recover the ball to win the clearance.

Around the ground, Viney does the same on good players. Here the tap is for Oliver, with Crouch defending him. Brayshaw blocks the inside exit and AVB the defensive exit (we're kicking left). Viney is trusted one on one with their best player, Rory Laird.

Viney beats Laird for position and, when there's no effective tap from either Gawn or O'Reilly, Viney is able to win the clearance off the back of his good defensive body work. 

Now he's one with Petracca on Laird and Brayshaw on Crouch. It's a weird one because the play breaks down with a dodgy bounce. The tap ends up going forwards to no-man's land. But the important thing is the defence at the stoppage. 

Crouch edges Brayshaw off the ball and Petracca is lost with the clever Laird, but Viney recovers really quickly from the odd tap and gets himself between the ball and Keays, who isn't able to have any influence on the play. 

The first possession is won by Crouch and the clearance by Laird. It's a comfortable clearance in the end and Laird wanders through untouched. Keays is shut out quickly by Viney. Brayshaw and Petracca are non-entities once beaten, but Viney is able to do his role so consistently.

 

This happens over and over again. Viney is able to kill opposition clearances and also win his own off the back of this. He doesn't have the play designed for him as often as the attacking mids, but he can do it well if there is another defensive midfielder in the stoppage. For example, this stoppage involves Vandenberg. Viney is on Shiel (left) whilst AVB is blocking Merrett and Oliver is being defended. 

Shiel is the opposition's best midfielder, but Viney is so good at winning the body battle in stoppages that the play can confidently predict he wins body position for the surprise attack. Oliver's man only has eyes for him, so Oliver just has to stay out of the way of Viney, whilst AVB just blocks Merrett away. The tap goes to the far side, which is easy to do when the opposition has Stewart in the ruck.

It's an easy clearance in the end because of a terrible setup by Essendon. But the whole play depends on Viney winning body position, which he does. Usually he does it defensively for other players, but he can do it himself so reliably that sometimes they design plays for it. He has the quality to play both attacking and defensive.

The defensive midfielder is under-appreciated. Brayshaw has been given this responsibility at times, but he just doesn't do it to the level of Viney. You can see that, since Brayshaw went down late in the year, Melksham has been sent into the middle to play defensively. Oliver can do it at times, but he's a target man more often than not whilst Viney creates the space he can use. When Petracca is in there the ball is almost always going to him. Oliver is a rounded midfield but he doesn't play as a defensively minded stoppage midfielder like Viney. Viney is so important because he's so much better than the next best player in his role (Brayshaw, AVB and Melksham), and one of the best at it in the league. Plus, on top of that, he can be used offensively when required. There's a reason why a range of coaches love him every single year, but his style means that it doesn't always get its way on to the stats sheet.

Edited September 27, 20204 yr by Axis of Bob

5 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

OK. Viney does multiple roles, and it varied depending on who is in the centre with him. Here is one against St Kilda, without Oliver. It's Viney, Brayshaw and Petracca.

This is set up for Petracca to have the who far side open to him. Viney blocks out Steele, Brayshaw gets inside Jones to block and Petracca beats Ross and gets to the far side with space. This is shown below:

Unfortunately the play breaks down because Brayshaw can't get inside Jones to block him out, so Jones gets the ball before it gets to Petracca. Viney, on the other hand, gets Steele out of position and is therefor a non-factor in the stoppage. This is shown below.

I show this as an example of how important these roles are in stoppages.

Here is another, with the play designed for Oliver. Oliver is to beat Shiel to the tap to the far side, with Viney blocking out Merrett to create space and Melksham playing purely defensively on Stringer (near side).

Essentially:

Merrett give Viney the slip early, which puts the play in jeopardy.

But Viney is able to recover to win body position to push Merrett into the contest, which keeps the play alive.

Oliver gets a little hold from Shiel, but because Viney has done his job so well on Merrett he's now clear and able to recover the ball to win the clearance.

Around the ground, Viney does the same on good players. Here the tap is for Oliver, with Crouch defending him. Brayshaw blocks the inside exit and AVB the defensive exit (we're kicking left). Viney is trusted one on one with their best player, Rory Laird.

Viney beats Laird for position and, when there's no effective tap from either Gawn or O'Reilly, Viney is able to win the clearance off the back of his good defensive body work. 

Now he's one with Petracca on Laird and Brayshaw on Crouch. It's a weird one because the play breaks down with a dodgy bounce. The tap ends up going forwards to no-man's land. But the important thing is the defence at the stoppage. 

Crouch edges Brayshaw off the ball and Petracca is lost with the clever Laird, but Viney recovers really quickly from the odd tap and gets himself between the ball and Keays, who isn't able to have any influence on the play. 

The first possession is won by Crouch and the clearance by Laird. It's a comfortable clearance in the end and Laird wanders through untouched. Keays is shut out quickly by Viney. Brayshaw and Petracca are non-entities once beaten, but Viney is able to do his role so consistently.

 

This happens over and over again. Viney is able to kill opposition clearances and also win his own off the back of this. He doesn't have the play designed for him as often as the attacking mids, but he can do it well if there is another defensive midfielder in the stoppage. For example, this stoppage involves Vandenberg. Viney is on Shiel (left) whilst AVB is blocking Merrett and Oliver is being defended. 

Shiel is the opposition's best midfielder, but Viney is so good at winning the body battle in stoppages that the play can confidently predict he wins body position for the surprise attack. Oliver's man only has eyes for him, so Oliver just has to stay out of the way of Viney, whilst AVB just blocks Merrett away. The tap goes to the far side, which is easy to do when the opposition has Stewart in the ruck.

It's an easy clearance in the end because of a terrible setup by Essendon. But the whole play depends on Viney winning body position, which he does. Usually he does it defensively for other players, but he can do it himself so reliably that sometimes they design plays for it. He has the quality to play both attacking and defensive.

The defensive midfielder is under-appreciated. Brayshaw has been given this responsibility at times, but he just doesn't do it to the level of Viney. You can see that, since Brayshaw went down late in the year, Melksham has been sent into the middle to play defensively. Oliver can do it at times, but he's a target man more often than not whilst Viney creates the space he can use. When Petracca is in there the ball is almost always going to him. Oliver is a rounded midfield but he doesn't play as a defensively minded stoppage midfielder like Viney. Viney is so important because he's so much better than the next best player in his role (Brayshaw, AVB and Melksham), and one of the best at it in the league. Plus, on top of that, he can be used offensively when required. There's a reason why a range of coaches love him every single year, but his style means that it doesn't always get its way on to the stats sheet.

Can you now make one showing the passages where Viney receives the ball in space, has the option to use his left, but comes back inside to absorb contact from two tacklers, before either a) getting caught holding the ball; or b) getting a scrubby possession forward. 

4 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Can you now make one showing the passages where Viney receives the ball in space, has the option to use his left, but comes back inside to absorb contact from two tacklers, before either a) getting caught holding the ball; or b) getting a scrubby possession forward. 

This is closest I could find:

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, demon3165 said:

The problem with Viney is is not quick and lack of football awareness if his role was one of doing what Harmes did in 2018 he would be a complete liability to the side as for putting him forward well  they would just run off him all day.

That's rubbish and giving Jack no credit as a footballer.

I think he could be A Wallis  up forward and given a run any where on the forward line role to get the hall and pressure the defenders BUT must play first option and kick right foot much more.

MELBOURNE

"Jack Viney‘s future continues to hang in the balance, with both Carlton and Geelong seeing him as a genuine chance to jump ship. Simon Goodwin is a huge fan of Viney and with the 26-year-old a restricted free agent the club may play hard ball (in true Viney fashion) to force a trade".   trade-news-rumours-whispers

Based on that, either the club is playing its cards on Jack's extended contract very close to its chest or Viney hasn't signed yet.

If he goes for the mooted salary and given his age we would get a first round pick; currently #11.  Can't see us getting a better pick by 'forcing a trade' and playing hard ball isn't our style.  Also, if Jack chose to go I doubt the club would make it hard.  He deserves a clean transition.

Jack has until the first week of November (FA week) to decide.  Hopefully we know before then so other decision trade can be made.  With FA's, the longer it takes for an announcement the person is staying the more likely it is they are not, especially if their chosen club is in the finals. 

Edited September 27, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Jack just sign the club needs you forget about the naysayers. I presume he reads demonland religiously like we all do.

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think you can compare Aussie Rules with NBA/NHL for the simple reason those teams are comprised of such small squads. Aussie Rules has 22 players each week but really you need a squad of at least 30 players that can rotate through the team if you want to be successful.

Having said that though how have the Spurs fared since Kawhi left? How did the Raptors go this year? Knocked out by the Celtics in round 1 of the playoffs?

Spurs were one of the most successful sides ever, this year was the first time they've missed finals in forever, I think it was the longest streak of finals ever in the NBA. Raps won the championship, they went all in, they achieved what they wanted to and this season was a very good regular season but they should have gone further (Celts are playing the Conf finals though).

Trying to boil it all down I'm just trying to look at the value of that player. Is his value to us, at a high wage, better than what his value can be to use without him? ie free agent pick plus his saved cap hit plus potential for other player/s that can make us better? Will it allow us to retain the other guys we need to (Tracc, Oli etc)? That is all I'm trying to look at not the "bleeds for the jumper", "runs through brick walls/he's a finals type player" or leadership he brings (if it was that good we would be playing finals this year...). All ifs and buts but is a great discussion topic in the current climate and Melbs current situation.

The longer this takes the more chance Jack Viney heads off to Geelong.  He is clearly not our best onballer and is quite limited for a 26 YO who should be at his peak.  I think Melbourne would be silly to offer him any more then 3 years.  Geelong will offer 4 and likely get him.  So many posters think he needs to be a small pressure forward...would you want to pay 600k+ for him to learn this role?  I just don't see his value and he will still have his limitations, see ball get ball type, stuffing up structures, he does not do the team things innately.  Basically play a kossie role but with no where near the amount of natural ability.  I love Jack, but think much like Jones before him he does not show true leadership.  He just wants to crash in harder, which is admirable but so often he is crashing into a player who was in over the ball already.  I really think without him being automatic selection in the midfield we would be much better off with a smart outside player.  There would be plenty available in the 500-700k mark that would make a real difference to our team instantly.  We can keep Jack and know exactly what we are going to get, toughness/hardness/not much footy smarts.  He is 26, has currency, and i think it would be far more beneficial to us to get a decent draft pick in return.  Would not be surprised at all if we told him to explore his options as we really can't afford to have both him and Harmes in the same team.

Harmes is contracted for years otherwise we would be trying to offload him too.  We get what we can for Jack and wish him the best.  With new faces brings hope.  I have no faith that JV will ever improve with us, it is not like he is suddenly going to discover footy IQ and make better decisions.