Farewell Jack Watts

[chookrat 4,268]

25 minutes ago, mo64 said:

BS. He was talked into the job by PJ, and offered a fortune to take it. The reason why PJ was keen to get him was because Roos would not get the same media or public scrutiny as a first time coach if the club had poor results. Through the poor results, we were gifted high draft picks to acquire young talent, which is Jason Taylor's role. We already had Hogan and Viney from Neeld's time.

And during his time, Roos was never able to lure a big name to the club. Hibberd, Melksham and Vince came to the club through Goodwin's connection, and Lewis through Viney. You could say Garlett, but he was on the scrapheap at Carlton. So the core of the list is primarily the remnants of Neeld, the acquisitions by Goodwin/Viney, and the recruiting by Taylor.

The easiest coaching job in the world is one where you nominate your ending date, and leave before the job is finished. Then he has the nerve to be critical of the club, and especially Goodwin, who he annointed. By your reasoning, if Goodwin is a failure, then so is Roos.

Roos did manage to talk The Prince into joining us

[WattsUp2312 63]

I keep on reading about this 21st place in the B&F....where was he before he got injured? His injury (along with Max) proves coming back from hammies is really hard during the season (it’s a mental issue as when you do it, the stress on the body is incredible)

I’m sad he is going, but if he does go then we should be showing respect to a guy who actually is a demon at heart.

[Adam The God 30,403]

It's actually laughable people are getting so worked up and emotional about Jack leaving.

Of course it shows passion, but to me it's wildly misguided. Who do you barrack for: Jack Watts or the MFC? Talk of conspiracies at the BnF, within the FD and potshoting Goodwin. 

It's like certain supporters have hitched their wagons so closely to Jack due to the [censored] they've been through together (and the failure of past adminstrations and FDs), that they can't possibly see his flaws or, that what is best for him (and the footy club, which is why we should be here), is to move on. 

He has great skills and decision-making, but he rarely lays tackles and can't mark above his head. He's played one good season in 9 and played really good/great games a handful of times in the other 8 seasons. Yes, he's been loyal, but so have the MFC.

I could understand the angst if this was Clarry, who appears to be a generational talent, but a football club is bigger than any one individual. How some supporters can lampoon this FD for one decision, after the brilliant way they've managed the club over the past 4 years, is absurd IMO and totally over emotional.

At page 456 or whatever we're at, some need to decide whether they're rational enough to separate their support of Watts and their support of the Melbourne Football Club. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'll be sad to see Jack play in other colours, but I'll support my footy club - that's why I'm here. Not for one player, particularly one that has, I think most agree, underachieved.

And before some say it, no, it is not purely up to coaches to get the best out of players. It is also up to the player to take control of their own professionalism and training, and get the most out of themselves. Jack hasn't, otherwise he'd have reached the potential many still talk about. 

And finally, let's not make this about potshotting each other. We're all Melbourne and some love Jack and some don't, but letting one player or one decision divide us is pointless, childish and dangerous. At the end of the day, all parties need to support the club. Some can continue supporting Watts and the MFC and others, like myself, can wish him well, but purely support the MFC and their decision-making in this instance.

This year I've made a cognisant decision to live in the grey. Rarely is anything black and white, except perhaps my hatred of certain opposition teams. ? Let's all acknowledge that there's a complexity to the Watts trade (the grey if you like) without leaping on each other and simply support our football club. If any one post could exemplify the grey, it's my ramblings in this post alone.

Edited October 10, 2017 by A F

[What 18,810]

The Jack Watts fan boys sticking the boot into Roos and Goodwin....  pathetic.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,271]

2 hours ago, Jimcor2 said:

What you fail to acknowledge is that raw talent and intelligence is, of course, generally not enough unless it is supported by competent coaching.  We are taliking about the possibility of realising potential and sadly, Jack has had more than a fair share of really poor coaches.  I'm hoping but am not overly optimistic that Goodwin is not another one that a talented playing group has to tolerate.  Once again, I thing Roos is the stand out exception to the coaching debacles.  Elvis has now definitely left the building.

As 55 said, coaching is a two-way street. 

Ofcourse I acknowledge raw talent and intelligence is not enough, that was the point of my post! You can have the best coaches in the world but if a person doesn't have the constitution to push themselves to become elite then it ain't gonna happen.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,271]

1 hour ago, Robbie57 said:

Just read the article with Connors berating Melbourne and Footscray. Without getting into the ins and outs of specific deals isn't this the logical outcome of the situation where players, in contract, nominate another club they want to be traded to? I think it may have led to the clubs taking the position they expect to be able to control some trades as well.  Seems that the clubs are not content to live in the one way street anymore. 

Clubs should own players contracts and should be able to trade them wherever they can without players consent. Then once out of contract, players have FA status and can go where they like.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

10 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

The Jack Watts fan boys sticking the boot into Roos and Goodwin....  pathetic.

 

Not Roos

[Coq au vin 755]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

It's interesting to look at Goodwins football life and reflect on why he has taken this step.

Short,small,late developer, with little or no chance of being selected at AFL level at 17.

Watts was tall athletic ,skilled and starred for Vic Metro-had a huge spotlight shone upon him.

Watts makes friends easily and has a beaming smile.Has made plenty of mistakes and gets made to pay for them.

Goodwin was involved at Essendon during the drugs saga, had a severe gambling addiction and faced the abyss before Roos picked both men up and re-ignited them.

Roos is a superior spiritual being and I hope /wish he would call them both and put this thing in it's proper perspective .

There is some short mans syndrome evident in Goodwins actions.

There is a millionaire attitude to Watts ,perhaps because he has never had to fight as hard as Goodwin did for his career.

I will view it as a failure by Goodwin if Watts leaves.I can think only of the roar of the crowd next year if when Watts DOES crunch tackles of take pack marks, or make desperate saves in defence.

I'm still hoping it's with us. Forlorn as the hope might seem.

 

Short? He’s over 6ft tall!

[Nasher 33,617]

2 hours ago, Biffen said:

It's interesting to look at Goodwins football life and reflect on why he has taken this step.

Short,small,late developer, with little or no chance of being selected at AFL level at 17.

Watts was tall athletic ,skilled and starred for Vic Metro-had a huge spotlight shone upon him.

Watts makes friends easily and has a beaming smile.Has made plenty of mistakes and gets made to pay for them.

Goodwin was involved at Essendon during the drugs saga, had a severe gambling addiction and faced the abyss before Roos picked both men up and re-ignited them.

Roos is a superior spiritual being and I hope /wish he would call them both and put this thing in it's proper perspective .

There is some short mans syndrome evident in Goodwins actions.

There is a millionaire attitude to Watts ,perhaps because he has never had to fight as hard as Goodwin did for his career.

I will view it as a failure by Goodwin if Watts leaves.I can think only of the roar of the crowd next year if when Watts DOES crunch tackles of take pack marks, or make desperate saves in defence.

I'm still hoping it's with us. Forlorn as the hope might seem.

 

Summary: Goodwin hates Watts because Watts is tall and good looking, and Goodwin was an ugly, late developing runt.

Sorry Biff, but this ranks up there with the biggest load of garbage in this thread, and the competition is fierce.  Are people wildly missing the point on purpose or what?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, Older demon said:

Todays AGE http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dogs-demons-want-it-both-ways-on-jake-stringer-and-jack-watts-says-their-manager-20171010-gyy4b6.html

"Dogs, Demons want it both ways on Jake Stringer and Jack Watts, says their manager"

"I've been in this game a long time and I just think, next time this happens to us, we'll ask a few more hard questions ourselves," Connors said.

"Before we make this all public, well let's get on the same page with what pick.

"It's one of the things I will be doing a bit differently with Robbie [D'Orazio from Connors Sports], that we will be asking more questions when we get called to meetings like this in the future.

"It's a total backflip, for mine. He's contracted, so there's an option. But again, it's really hard to go back to an organisation where he's probably not welcome."

Despite Melbourne making similar comments about Watts potentially staying, Connors confirmed that Watts had only recently decided that he would be better off leaving.

"It's no good being at an organisation if they don't want you," Connors said.

"Yeah I think he is [up for leaving the state] … he might have to be."

That's not a 'backhander' around our handling of the situation as a whole - Connor is just having a sook on behalf of his players that we are still asking for something good in return for a player we have put up for trade.

He actually praised how we handled the situation internally and the discussions we've had with Jack since the season ended.  Not sure about you, but that is far, far more important to me.

[Scoop Junior 3,513]

59 minutes ago, mo64 said:

BS. He was talked into the job by PJ, and offered a fortune to take it. The reason why PJ was keen to get him was because Roos would not get the same media or public scrutiny as a first time coach if the club had poor results. Through the poor results, we were gifted high draft picks to acquire young talent, which is Jason Taylor's role. We already had Hogan and Viney from Neeld's time.

And during his time, Roos was never able to lure a big name to the club. Hibberd, Melksham and Vince came to the club through Goodwin's connection, and Lewis through Viney. You could say Garlett, but he was on the scrapheap at Carlton. So the core of the list is primarily the remnants of Neeld, the acquisitions by Goodwin/Viney, and the recruiting by Taylor.

The easiest coaching job in the world is one where you nominate your ending date, and leave before the job is finished. Then he has the nerve to be critical of the club, and especially Goodwin, who he annointed. By your reasoning, if Goodwin is a failure, then so is Roos.

How easily 2013 is forgotten.

A time when we would regularly lose by 10+ goals, when matches were over at 1/4 time, when supporters came to games knowing we had almost no chance to win, when drafting and development of players had been shambolic, when many players were wanting to leave, when no players from opposition clubs with any modicum of talent wanted anything to do with us, when the culture was so poor that players didn't even know the level of work required to be a professional AFL player, when the talent on our list was so far below AFL standard that Terlich and Jones finished top 4 in our best and fairest...

This club was in an extremely precarious position only four years ago.

I'm not going to go into the things Roos has done, but in the space of four years (one year under Goodwin) we are now a team that is attractive to elite young talent, players want to stay, is expected to play finals, tough and competitive, has exciting young talent, can develop young players and can beat any opposition side on any given day.

The turnaround is quite remarkable and anyone of us would have grabbed this in a second if offered it back in 2013.

It's not just Roos. And Roos has never said it was just about him - he was very quick to point out it's about having good people. But Roos was a significant part of the turnaround and did everything we could've expected from him.

The "easiest coaching job in the world". Funny that, because at the time Roos was appointed it was being described as one of the hardest and one to avoid if you wanted a career in coaching. As I said, just think back to what we were in 2013.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,271]

34 minutes ago, A F said:

It's actually laughable people are getting so worked up and emotional about Jack leaving.

Of course it shows passion, but to me it's wildly misguided. Who do you barrack for: Jack Watts or the MFC? Talk of conspiracies at the BnF, within the FD and potshoting Goodwin. 

It's like certain supporters have hitched their wagons so closely to Jack due to the [censored] they've been through together (and the failure of past adminstrations and FDs), that they can't possibly see his flaws or, that what is best for him (and the footy club, which is why we should be here), is to move on. 

He has great skills and decision-making, but he rarely lays tackles and can't mark above his head. He's played one good season in 9 and played really good/great games a handful of times in the other 8 seasons. Yes, he's been loyal, but so have the MFC.

I could understand the angst if this was Clarry, who appears to be a generational talent, but a football club is bigger than any one individual. How some supporters can lampoon this FD for one decision, after the brilliant way they've managed the club over the past 4 years, is absurd IMO and totally over emotional.

At page 456 or whatever we're at, some need to decide whether they're rational enough to separate their support of Watts and their support of the Melbourne Football Club. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'll be sad to see Jack play in other colours, but I'll support my footy club - that's why I'm here. Not for one player, particularly one that has, I think most agree, underachieved.

And before some say it, no, it is not purely up to coaches to get the best out of players. It is also up to the player to take control of their own professionalism and training, and get the most out of themselves. Jack hasn't, otherwise he'd have reached the potential many still talk about. 

And finally, let's not make this about potshotting each other. We're all Melbourne and some love Jack and some don't, but letting one player or one decision divide us is pointless, childish and dangerous. At the end of the day, all parties need to support the club. Some can continue supporting Watts and the MFC and others, like myself, can wish him well, but purely support the MFC and their decision-making in this instance.

This year I've made a cognisant decision to live in the grey. Rarely is anything black and white, except perhaps my hatred of certain opposition teams. ? Let's all acknowledge that there's a complexity to the Watts trade (the grey if you like) without leaping on each other and simply support our football club. If any one post could exemplify the grey, it's my ramblings in this post alone.

It's crazy isn't it mate. If this were Tyson being put up for trade instead of Watts would there be so much consternation?

[rpfc 28,734]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

BS. He was talked into the job by PJ, and offered a fortune to take it. The reason why PJ was keen to get him was because Roos would not get the same media or public scrutiny as a first time coach if the club had poor results. Through the poor results, we were gifted high draft picks to acquire young talent, which is Jason Taylor's role. We already had Hogan and Viney from Neeld's time.

And during his time, Roos was never able to lure a big name to the club. Hibberd, Melksham and Vince came to the club through Goodwin's connection, and Lewis through Viney. You could say Garlett, but he was on the scrapheap at Carlton. So the core of the list is primarily the remnants of Neeld, the acquisitions by Goodwin/Viney, and the recruiting by Taylor.

The easiest coaching job in the world is one where you nominate your ending date, and leave before the job is finished. Then he has the nerve to be critical of the club, and especially Goodwin, who he annointed. By your reasoning, if Goodwin is a failure, then so is Roos.

I just read this shaking my head the whole time; Roos changed the culture of the club in a couple years.

I am not going to get into this in Jack Watts thread but I don't get the Roos animosity for the money and inability to recruit names.

[rjay 25,063]

36 minutes ago, A F said:

It's actually laughable people are getting so worked up and emotional about Jack leaving.

Of course it shows passion, but to me it's wildly misguided. Who do you barrack for: Jack Watts or the MFC?

There's another side to the story here 'A F'...

My argument is not about barracking for Jack but is more along the lines of is it the right move for the MFC.

I think that's a fair question and argument to have.

[Nasher 33,617]

2 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I just read this shaking my head the whole time; Roos changed the culture of the club in a couple years.

I am not going to get into this in Jack Watts thread but I don't get the Roos animosity for the money and inability to recruit names.

What were you saying to @Wisebloodabout not choosing to engage the most ridiculous argument on the other side of the fence?  Clearly the one you've just quoted is mostly nonsense. (I know - I just did the same thing with Biff)

[Goodvibes 3,596]

1 hour ago, --coach-- said:

MAKKA PAKKA!!! No way, he is a required player and we won’t be trading him. Would Kung foo panda suffice? he’s a club favorite and all the youngsters look up to him?

MODS: this conversation may need to be moved to the trade rumors thread?

Iggle Piggle is available for nothing after I delisted him. He came to life as I stepped on his toe the other night in my boy's room. Scared the crap out of me!

In regards to Watts, I'd be disappointed with my manager's comments about the need for a coach that highlights his positives. Hardly smashing down the views held by most of the competition about his approach and mindset.

[Biffen 12,944]

10 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Summary: Goodwin hates Watts because Watts is tall and good looking, and Goodwin was an ugly, late developing runt.

Sorry Biff, but this ranks up there with the biggest load of garbage in this thread, and the competition is fierce.  Are people wildly missing the point on purpose or what?

If there was no truth to it you may not have reacted so vehemently.

It's more to do with personality formation than physique-but if you missed that point it wouldn't surprise .

[Nasher 33,617]

Just now, Biffen said:

If there was no truth to it you may not have reacted so vehemently.

LOL.  Turn it up, mate.  You're taking the pizz, surely.

[Biffen 12,944]

Just now, Nasher said:

LOL.  Turn it up, mate.  You're taking the pizz, surely.

Ask yourself that.

No I'm not.

[beelzebub 23,382]

2 minutes ago, Nasher said:

LOL.  Turn it up, mate.  You're taking the pizz, surely.

I simply took it to mean they are  polar opposites.  As Oil and Water.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

5 minutes ago, Biffen said:

If there was no truth to it you may not have reacted so vehemently.

It's more to do with personality formation than physique-but if you missed that point it wouldn't surprise .

Ah yes, because people can only get angry if there is a truth to get angry about.

No one ever got angry over a lie right?

You see a pattern where there is none Biff, I think Jung called it synchronicity.

[Nasher 33,617]

7 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I simply took it to mean they are  polar opposites.  As Oil and Water.

I simply took it to be nonsense.  *shrug*

For a start, it's not Goodwin's call alone anyway.  Goodwin doesn't give off the impression of an overbearing dictator to me.  Does he to you?

So much of the conversation on this forum has gone like this:

MFC: Jack Watts might be traded for <simple, clear reasons>
Demonland faithful: Nah, it's not that, it's because <convoluted conspiracy theories involving character judgements,  accusations of personal malice towards the player, and assumptions of complete stupidity on behalf of the management group>

Occam's Razor has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, and it's a theory I subscribe to.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Watts is gone. I've accepted this. I just hope we get an okay pick for him and don't have to pay any of his salary going forward.

What really concerns me is not this though. It's about professional management standards and principles, something that the club is saying it's delivering in spades at the moment.

Despite the noise here, it is abundantly clear that this situation has been handled poorly. And, relevantly, it need not have been.

In this regard, it seems clear that Watts did not know that this was a likely outcome, even at exit interview stage. That he should have worked it out, he should have joined the dots on it etc, is in my opinion irrelevant. I accept that he did not know. And he strikes me as being a reasonably intelligent adult. He's also been in the system for a long time, so I expect he generally has some idea about how this stuff rolls.

I don't know what anyone else here does for a living, does in their life etc. We just share a love for this football club.

In my day to day life, I manage a team of people, all of whom have finished in at least the top 1% of the State, have achieved a distinction average degree from a leading university and have options with employers other than where I apply my trade. Managing them in an appropriate and professional way is critical to my success, to their success, and, relevantly, to the success of the team.

In this context, regular and constructive feedback is essential. Clear and effective communication is critical. If any of them come to their bi-annual performance review, and they don't know exactly how they're tracking, I have let them down. They're all very clever, but, if they genuinely don't know where they're at, it is my fault. Not theirs.

They 'should've known' is simply not an excuse, not remotely. Some of the dinosaurs around me manage their teams like that, suffice to say they're talked about like Harvey Weinstein. Their behaviours and management style in not sustainable in 2017.

We had an unusually gifted people manager in Paul Roos. He is a very rare individual, particularly in footy circles. I used to observe him in a management sense, and wish I could be half as good as him. He would be better than most CEOs in this country if he ever had the inclination to get into the corporate world. He's far too zen for that, obviously.

How he turned around this basket case of a club after the Neeld years is simply astonishing. He created a decent culture. He rebuilt trust. He communicated in such an assured and deliberate way. He commanded respect. 

That people here are dismissing his views is regrettable. He is not on the outside. He knows this club. He knows the players. And the coaches. He knows footy.

I'm concerned that this unfortunate saga is being managed by a few ex-footy players who lack the sophistication of Paul Roos. They lack the soft hands. It's blunt instrument territory. And, in my view, those skills are needed on this one, even if it is ultimately in everyone's interests for Jack Watts to be elsewhere.

Something is clearly not good here - that we have 150 pages of heated discussion on the issue on a supporters forum is sufficient evidence of this. You can bet that many of the players are furiously texting each other about it too.

Here's to a good 2018. I hope we land Lever for not too much pain. And get a good player in return for Watts. I'll be very disappointed with anything less.

 

[Gator 17,449]

1 hour ago, Older demon said:

Todays AGE http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dogs-demons-want-it-both-ways-on-jake-stringer-and-jack-watts-says-their-manager-20171010-gyy4b6.html

"Dogs, Demons want it both ways on Jake Stringer and Jack Watts, says their manager"

"I've been in this game a long time and I just think, next time this happens to us, we'll ask a few more hard questions ourselves," Connors said.

"Before we make this all public, well let's get on the same page with what pick.

"It's one of the things I will be doing a bit differently with Robbie [D'Orazio from Connors Sports], that we will be asking more questions when we get called to meetings like this in the future.

"It's a total backflip, for mine. He's contracted, so there's an option. But again, it's really hard to go back to an organisation where he's probably not welcome."

Despite Melbourne making similar comments about Watts potentially staying, Connors confirmed that Watts had only recently decided that he would be better off leaving.

"It's no good being at an organisation if they don't want you," Connors said.

"Yeah I think he is [up for leaving the state] … he might have to be."

I listened to the entire SEN interview that these articles are based on and Connors comments were directed at the Dogs.

He never "blasted" Melbourne whatsoever.

You'll note that the article linked below is also a take from that SEN interview and correctly the author refers to comments displeasure at the Dogs and NOT Melbourne.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-10/stringer-camp-slams-dogs-over-total-backflip

[Biffen 12,944]

10 minutes ago, Choke said:

Ah yes, because people can only get angry if there is a truth to get angry about.

No one ever got angry over a lie right?

You see a pattern where there is none Biff, I think Jung called it synchronicity.

Jung would have referred to it as the shadow.

So thanks for your input.

Unhelpful as it usually is.