Farewell Jack Watts

[Demon Jack 6,436]

Watts will be meeting with Geelong this afternoon.

Source: Mitch Cleary

 

[GawnWithTheWind 604]

if we do end up lifting the cup, it'll be such a shame to not have Jack there.

He's been through so much with us.

[Die Hard Demon 1,181]

1 minute ago, GawnWithTheWind said:

if we do end up lifting the cup, it'll be such a shame to not have Jack there.

He's been through so much with us.

Or ... it'll be because we moved him on?

[GCDee 3,111]

1 hour ago, AllMyTeamsAreWank said:

Inside word I have lines up with most of what is written here. 

Got injured and requested a trip to Byron instead of focusing on rehab. Apparently this has majorly [censored] off the club. This was coming from a Storm player. 

If true, I have zero respect for him as a player. We were well and truly in the hunt for finals when he went down,  ANY professional would work their ass off the get right as quickly as possible and not take a [censored] holiday.

In light of this news anyone else still want to keep him?

[Gator 16,921]

59 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Don’t always agree with ProDee but on this one he is spot on

You're improving.

[Sir Why You Little 35,322]

Just now, ProDee said:

You're improving.

You make sense occasionally

[Dr. Gonzo 22,828]

1 hour ago, sue said:

1. A large part of the team, regularly criticised on this forum.

2. & 3. No idea.  Don't see how it bears on the issue.  I was referring to posters on this forum, not the FD.

3. Quite likely he was spoken to more than once. It seems clear that at least some of the FD are at the end of their tether or similar, did I say they weren't?

Demonlands can rant all they like. But why the FD did it in public?   And no, I'm not reposting my reasons why that was not a good idea.

1 - that's a cop out. Each player has different circumstances. If for instance Petracca was seen as underperforming the FD are going to manage that differently to a player of Watts' seniority

Of course the rest of the issues are relevant. You may see it as the ranting of supporters but the fact is the FD has put him up for trade. There must be reasons other than just Watts being picked on. It's already been discussed but I fail to see how this could have been kept out of the public considering the media are all over these things and supporters would be demanding answers from the club if they kept silent on the issue while Watts was speaking to other clubs while still having 2 years on his contract. It's fanciful to think it could be kept under wraps in this day and age.

[binman 39,620]

14 minutes ago, GCDee said:

If true, I have zero respect for him as a player. We were well and truly in the hunt for finals when he went down,  ANY professional would work their ass off the get right as quickly as possible and not take a [censored] holiday.

In light of this news anyone else still want to keep him?

You'd trade him on that alone?

Out of interest are your critical of the FD for approving the trip? 

[PaulRB 6,114]

When Jack’s visiting these clubs for the tour I wonder what he says in response to the inevitable question, “Why are the MFC moving you on? And what are you going to do to address these areas/concerns?”...

[Dr. Gonzo 22,828]

37 minutes ago, binman said:

I listened to the Roos interview on deetales last night. Brilliant interview. One of the best and most expansive interview i have heard with anyone directly involved with the dees. Roos is relaxed and remarkably open, in a way i suggest is unlikely in a normal media gig.  I recommend  giving it a listen if interested in the last few years at the dees

As has been noted in this thread he touches on Watts (from 5.23 min), but that is only a very small part of what of what is a very wide ranging discussion. That said Roos addresses many of the issues raised in this thread by posters on both sides of the argument.

To be transparent in my position i agree with most of what Roosy says, with one exception. I''m not sure if its a mistake to trade him or not in so far as i fully respect Goodwin's right to make the call and i don't know what the basis is for the decision (Roos acknowledges the same thing). If Goody and the FD decide it is the right decision then that is good enough for me. That doesn't mean i agree with it,  have to like it or that i won't be upset to lose Watts. But it is Goody's team and as someone pointed out the club is privy to data and other information (eg how well or otherwise jack approached his rehab or off season) that we - and Roos - are not.  Also Jack may simply not fit Goody's game plan or type of player he wants (eg not intense enough).

All that said, in light of the debate that is raging here on DL i did find Roosy's comments fascinating given who he is and how well he knows our team. Here are some selected quotes on three of the questions and issues that have been covered in this thread:

Are you a Watts fan

'i'm a huge Watts fan'

'an outstanding player' 

'a very, very good player'

'he elevated his game, certainly in my last year'

'an elite kick, an elite decision maker

'i'm a massive Jack Watts fan'

'he's got weakness and some of them are his responsibility to address' 

'i would take Jack Watts over Jake stringer every day of the week' (this was in the context of what roos said was the unfair criticism of jack compared to a player like Stringer who has been dropped multiple times over the last 2 years, and who by the by some people are saying is worth a high first round draft pick)

'the perception of jack Watts is just crazy .......its completely unrealistic'

Are they doing the right thing to trade him?

'i'd be disappointed personally but i don't know whats going on'

'i think its a big mistake to trade him but i don't know, i'm only basing that on what i saw last year and this year'

'you need a mix of players to play in your premiership'

Roos finished the discussion on Watts with this unequivocal comment: 'i think it would be a mistake to get rid of him'

Does he impact games enough

'the sort of player that wins you games, certainly in the last two years'

'he has won 6-8 games in the last two years, unquestionably'

'the sort of player every team needs'

'if i was another club and Melbourne rang me and said would you like Jack Watts i couldn't hold of him quick enough' 

'i know there was some criticism of him this year but the games i saw him play he impacted'

 

 

Agreed it's a great interview. You touched on some of the other comments he made later in the interview that were not directly about Watts but he did drop Watts' name in there when talking about coaching offense vs defense. Roos is subtle and he's not the type to come out and slam a player but I think you can read in to those comments that there are clearly genuine reasons why the situation had got to this point due to some of Watts' behaviours.

[Docs Demons 1,693]

19 minutes ago, GCDee said:

If true, I have zero respect for him as a player. We were well and truly in the hunt for finals when he went down,  ANY professional would work their ass off the get right as quickly as possible and not take a [censored] holiday.

In light of this news anyone else still want to keep him?

Confirm his visit to Byron. Seen by Son 

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Great post binman - thanks.

I think we all have to accept that Watts training standards in late 2016 and during 2017 have not been what the club expects of him and what should be expected of him.

The points of departure between posters here therefore seems to be:

- whether Watts' training standards are able to be fixed going forward at the MFC, given that he has been in the system for long time and some would say this has been a bit of a theme for much of that period;

- Watts' value/importance to the club going forward as a best 22 player;

- whether, in trading Watts, we will be able to get a player or pick commensurate in value; and

- whether trading such a popular figure amongst the players, sponsors and supporters will produce a negative impact for the club going forward, the consequences of which might be so culturally disruptive that it may outweigh any benefit in trading him.

For me personally:

- (standards) I think an experienced coach (such as Roos) would seek to fix Watts training standards at the club going forward - Goodwin is still growing into the role however and I expect he will be less tolerant/appreciative of some of the finer nuances of being a head coach and will default to a harsher, more binary approach to this;

- (quality) he is definitely a player we will want/need in big games going forward (see Roos' comments above, he's a highly skilled player) - relevantly, I see him as best 22 in every other team the comp (possibly excluding the Crows because Tom Lynch is a better player and they might be competing for this spot in their structure);

- (trade value) yet to see this, but I fear we won't get back something as good as we are letting go; and

- (cultural impact) potentially massive.

The upside in trading him is just not there IMO. I really hope the club, and Watts, can bury the hatchet and move forward, together. Time will tell I suppose.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Ron Burgundy

[jumbo returns 6,619]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Subjective

What's subjective?

You think it's a good move by the club, who wants to move him on, to open up all his limitations in a public forum?

Sounds dumb and poorly handled to me

 

[binman 39,620]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agreed it's a great interview. You touched on some of the other comments he made later in the interview that were not directly about Watts but he did drop Watts' name in there when talking about coaching offense vs defense. Roos is subtle and he's not the type to come out and slam a player but I think you can read in to those comments that there are clearly genuine reasons why the situation had got to this point due to some of Watts' behaviours.

Agree. By the same token - and along the same lines as him being subtle - i did wonder if there was a subtle criticism of how Goody has handled watts this year with his comments on the need not to focus on player's weaknesses.

I found another comment really fascinating. He talked about the critical element of being a senior coach, as opposed to an assistant coach, is that you have to be a leader. He said there was senior coach who had been an assistant coach who he felt had not made the transition and become a leader. He said he wouldn't name the coach. Surely not Goodwin but then who (nb he seems to imply it is a current coach)? 

Edited October 6, 2017 by binman

[Gator 16,921]

Jackson Trengove is netting Port pick 30 as compensation.

They've been kissed on the ****

OK but skill-less player, who couldn't make their team late in the year.

[praha 10,575]

This seems like as big a test of character for Watts as he's faced. The club has essentially said he can stay so long as he commits to what is expected of him and raises standards. Or he can leave. 

To me, leaving shapes as being almost vindication of Melbourne's concerns. And I think we'll be better off if he leaves. If he stays, he has 2 seasons to save his AFL career.

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

Don't know if it's been brought up yet but anyone read Dangerfields comments on JW?  

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Travis16
Added

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,905]

8 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Jackson Trengove is netting Port pick 30 as compensation.

They've been kissed on the ****

OK but skill-less player, who couldn't make their team late in the year.

Won't matter as they are getting Rockliff.

[praha 10,575]

19 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree. By the same token - and along the same lines as him being subtle - i did wonder if there was a subtle criticism of how Goody has handled watts this year with his comments on the need not to focus on player's weaknesses.

I found another comment really fascinating. He talked about the critical element of being a senior coach, as opposed to an assistant coach, is that you have to be a leader. He said there was senior coach who had been an assistant coach who he felt had not made the transition and become a leader. He said he wouldn't name the coach. Surely not Goodwin but then who (nb he seems to imply it is a current coach)? 

This is coming from Roos though who came in to a damanged club. Eventually the players and clubs need to be made aware of their mistakes and faults, not just cuddled and nurtured until we win a flag. I keep hearing about the "culture" Roos has established but maybe our inability to put sides away and our frequency in losing to teams we should beat is due to the playing group being complacent and not worrying too much about their faults and mistakes. I can understand why Jack Watts and co. would have needed to be nurtured with positive reinforcement back in late 2013 but we're 4 years on now. This BS has to end. You don't win flags by saying, "Oh look Wattsy, we won't focus on your negative, let's focus on the positives like your elite kick...." meanwhile forgetting about training standards and leadership. 

It seems like we're still in the era of the Brad Green numpty cuddle. If things aren't going well, seek out a compliment....or just bend over on game day and lose by 186 points!

Seriously, we seem to be the only club that always has a divide between playing and coaching groups. And it always seems to happen. At some stage these blokes need to get over themselves and step into the real world. Watts included.

[sue 8,628]

40 minutes ago, Docs Demons said:

Confirm his visit to Byron. Seen by Son 

Don't think that has been in question.  It's whether his going is neutral, a black mark against Watts and/or a black mark against the FD for letting him go.  Take your pick.

[Older demon 2,323]

I was reminded by my daughter, of the time MFC traded out a recent brownlow winner, Shane Woewodin and how well that went or didn't. As he was her favourite player she decided she would follow him and decided to barrack for Collingwood after that. It was only recently and after much cajoling and Robbo convincing her at an MFC family day to switch back, that she rejoined the fold.

Woewodin didn't set the world on fire and Collingwood but we lost members as a result and looked bad ditching a contracted player. I cannot remember if we got an decent players back to replace him. Is history repeating itself?

Edited October 6, 2017 by Older demon

[binman 39,620]

3 minutes ago, praha said:

This is coming from Roos though who came in to a damanged club. Eventually the players and clubs need to be made aware of their mistakes and faults, not just cuddled and nurtured until we win a flag. I keep hearing about the "culture" Roos has established but maybe our inability to put sides away and our frequency in losing to teams we should beat is due to the playing group being complacent and not worrying too much about their faults and mistakes. I can understand why Jack Watts and co. would have needed to be nurtured with positive reinforcement back in late 2013 but we're 4 years on now. This BS has to end. You don't win flags by saying, "Oh look Wattsy, we won't focus on your negative, let's focus on the positives like your elite kick...." meanwhile forgetting about training standards and leadership. 

It seems like we're still in the era of the Brad Green numpty cuddle. If things aren't going well, seek out a compliment....or just bend over on game day and lose by 186 points!

Seriously, we seem to be the only club that always has a divide between playing and coaching groups. And it always seems to happen. At some stage these blokes need to get over themselves and step into the real world. Watts included.

One i don't know if Roos was criticizing Goodwin.

Two i can't see how you can parlay my comment into a full blown rant about the BS having to stop and the club toughening up.

Three it is a huge stretch to suggest out inability to put sides away is related to some soft cuddly culture roosy inculcated.

Four, it is an even bigger stretch to suggest roosy  focused on positives and had no interest in training standards and leadership (not to mention complete bollocks)

Five, and with all due respect i value roosy's opinion more than yours (and i assume you value his more than mine)

[sue 8,628]

9 minutes ago, praha said:

..At some stage these blokes need to get over themselves and step into the real world. Watts included.

It seems Watts only.

[GCDee 3,111]

50 minutes ago, binman said:

You'd trade him on that alone?

Out of interest are your critical of the FD for approving the trip? 

They approved it?!? Sorry judging by the post the club got mad and told him to GAGF.

Then yes I'm mad at the FD 

[Redleg 38,601]

1 hour ago, GawnWithTheWind said:

if we do end up lifting the cup, it'll be such a shame to not have Jack there.

He's been through so much with us.

I think I could survive that.