POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 3

[Binmans PA 26,051]

8 minutes ago, picket fence said:

I am hearing very big whispers that Max Gawn's Hamstring is worse than first thought Sorry if anyone else has bulletined this previuosly. Got it from a mate who is not often wrong. I hope this time he is!

I am hearing tendon is cactus and surgery option being considered. 

If so could be 8-12 weeks. Dont shoot the messenger

Thanks, Sandra. 

[Bells 155]

Not looking good for Gawn

 

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-04-09/gawn-set-to-see-surgeon-for-injury

[Demon Dynasty 15,412]

32 minutes ago, A F said:

I think we need to back our system. I don't want to see us select a player on the basis of potential injuries or a second ruck. Guys who can play multiple positions need to step up and take that second ruck position. I'll reiterate again, we would have won yesterday had we kicked straight and that's without a traditional second ruck. 

Not on that basis AF but a decent tall who can play multiple roles, one of them as the chop out for Max/Spencil when resting, is a non-negotiable if we are to make finals this year.

[Demon Disciple 10,935]

Spencer has some big shoes to fill.

He's been waiting for his turn for a while, let's hope he grabs it with both hands.

[Demon Dynasty 15,412]

8 minutes ago, picket fence said:

I am hearing very big whispers that Max Gawn's Hamstring is worse than first thought Sorry if anyone else has posted this previously. Got it from a mate who is not often wrong. I hope this time he is!

I am hearing tendon is cactus and surgery option being considered. 

If so could be 8-12 weeks. Dont shoot the messenger

I officially hate you Mr Fence

[Binmans PA 26,051]

8 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Not on that basis AF but a decent tall who can play multiple roles, one of them as the chop out for Max/Spencil when resting, is a non-negotiable if we are to make finals this year.

Are we talking Pedersen here, because his foot speed is a worry off half back. He's too slow. All very well to want a decent tall you can play multiple roles, but they don't grow on trees, as we know.

[Demon Dynasty 15,412]

1 minute ago, Demon Disciple said:

Spencer has some big shoes to fill.

He's been waiting for his turn for a while, let's hope he grabs it with both hands.

The ball or his shoes DD?

[Demon Disciple 10,935]

Jamar used to match up well against Sandilands, even though he gave away 12cm. He would continually jump into his body and try and beat him physically, as opposed to aerially.

Maybe Pencil could employ these tactics as well.

[Macca 16,173]

1 minute ago, A F said:

I don't subscribe to this for the majority of teams though. Against 'a better opponent' than Geelong, it'll only be the top 4 and maybe one or two other sides. If you look at the top sides, with the exception of GWS with Mumford and maybe Adelaide with Jacobs (who is overrated for mine, but a decent ruck), this isn't the strong suit of many clubs.

Certainly, we lose an advantage we had by having Gawn, but the second ruck 'problem' as people put it, doesn't phase me and it shouldn't phase the MC.

And our coaches should already have a decent system to go to when another ruckman is dominating Max or we only break even in the hit outs or get beaten. That'll be the plan we go to. But I suspect some of this is cross purpose talking.

What has now happened to Gawn has a lot to do with the original discussion about his workloads and what might happen if those workloads were to stay the same or if they were to be reduced.

Whilst he was on the ball for 90% or more, then having a 2nd ruck like Watts or Pedersen isn't really an issue ... however, that amount of workload for Max can increase his chances of getting injured.  And look what has just happened.

So, my original argument still stands.  I wanted to lessen the workloads on Gawn which meant that our 2nd ruck position became one where a 'fill-in' probably wasn't going to cut it. 

It will be interesting to see what Gawn's workloads are when he returns - I'm thinking that the MC might take the conservative route

Anyway, it's probably best that we agree to disagree on this one AF but I can see your point.

 

[Binmans PA 26,051]

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

What has now happened to Gawn has a lot to do with the original discussion about his workloads and what might happen if those workloads were to stay the same or if they were to be reduced.

Whilst he was on the ball for 90% or more, then having a 2nd ruck like Watts or Pedersen isn't really an issue ... however, that amount of workload for Max can increase his chances of getting injured.  And look what has just happened.

So, my original argument still stands.  I wanted to lessen the workloads on Gawn which meant that our 2nd ruck position became one where a 'fill-in' probably wasn't going to cut it. 

It will be interesting to see what Gawn's workloads are when he returns - I'm thinking that the MC might take the conservative route

Anyway, it's probably best that we agree to disagree on this one AF but I can see your point.

 

Fair enough. I buy that.

[Demon Dynasty 15,412]

9 minutes ago, A F said:

Are we talking Pedersen here, because his foot speed is a worry off half back. He's too slow. All very well to want a decent tall you can play multiple roles, but they don't grow on trees, as we know.

Beggars cant be choosers AF. If Hibberd and Frost can get on the park we wont need him in defence. Straight replacement for Weids atm and chop out in the ruck. Not a long term solution but plays a role for a given period till we find/develop better or weids is ready etc. Who knows Peds might improve also. Who are we to place a player in a box and say he can't  improve with age/experience? He does only have 60 games under his belt but still a valuable 60 games of experience.

If we can get Peds fit he just might be the ideal foil for Hulk up forward as the 2nd tall stringer and as the resting ruckman for some of the time, Watts still doing his little cameos here and there on the odd occasion also when Peds is playing forward and Spencil (Maxy) resting..

Edited April 9, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[chook fowler 18,226]

28 minutes ago, picket fence said:

I am hearing very big whispers that Max Gawn's Hamstring is worse than first thought Sorry if anyone else has posted this previously. Got it from a mate who is not often wrong. I hope this time he is!

I am hearing tendon is cactus and surgery option being considered. 

If so could be 8-12 weeks. Dont shoot the messenger

Consider yourself shot.

[Moonshadow 16,168]

29 minutes ago, picket fence said:

I am hearing very big whispers that Max Gawn's Hamstring is worse than first thought Sorry if anyone else has posted this previously. Got it from a mate who is not often wrong. I hope this time he is!

I am hearing tendon is cactus and surgery option being considered. 

If so could be 8-12 weeks. Dont shoot the messenger

Maybe your mate reads the online papers, as it's been on The Age website for a while.

[Binmans PA 26,051]

30 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Maybe your mate reads the online papers, as it's been on The Age website for a while.

And on Demonland for a few hours.

[Demon Jack 6,278]

I just realised I haven't had much of a look at what lies ahead in regards to our fixture over the next couple months. Our games leading towards the bye are: 

Round 4: Melbourne vs Fremantle - MCG 

Round 5: Richmond vs Melbourne - MCG 

Round 6: Essendon vs Melbourne - Etihad Stadium

Round 7: Melbourne vs Hawthorn - MCG

Round 8: Adelaide vs Melbourne - Adelaide Oval

Round 9: Melbourne vs North Melbourne - MCG

Round 10: Melbourne vs Gold Coast - TIO Trager Park

I know we still have a lot of development left to go through, but without trying to sound cocky we could very well be looking at a 8-2 result going into the bye (Adelaide seems like a stretch). Even if we pull in a shocker against a North Melbourne or Essendon, 7-3 is still a handy launching point leading into the mid part of the season.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Demon Jack

[Binmans PA 26,051]

14 minutes ago, Demon Jack said:

I just realised I haven't had much of a look at what lies ahead in regards to our fixture over the next couple months. Our games leading towards the bye are: 

Round 4: Melbourne vs Fremantle - MCG 

Round 5: Richmond vs Melbourne - MCG 

Round 6: Essendon vs Melbourne - Etihad Stadium

Round 7: Melbourne vs Hawthorn - MCG

Round 8: Adelaide vs Melbourne - Adelaide Oval

Round 9: Melbourne vs North Melbourne - MCG

Round 10: Melbourne vs Gold Coast - TIO Trager Park

I know we still have a lot of development left to go through, but without trying to sound cocky we could very well be looking at a 8-2 result going into the bye (Adelaide seems like a stretch). Even if we pull in a shocker against a North Melbourne or Essendon, 7-3 is still a handy launching point leading into the mid part of the season.

I think it's all down to how we respond next week. If we come out and pump Freo without Gawn, I think we could well go on a run of wins.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

1 hour ago, Demon Jack said:

I just realised I haven't had much of a look at what lies ahead in regards to our fixture over the next couple months. Our games leading towards the bye are: 

Round 4: Melbourne vs Fremantle - MCG 

Round 5: Richmond vs Melbourne - MCG 

Round 6: Essendon vs Melbourne - Etihad Stadium

Round 7: Melbourne vs Hawthorn - MCG

Round 8: Adelaide vs Melbourne - Adelaide Oval

Round 9: Melbourne vs North Melbourne - MCG

Round 10: Melbourne vs Gold Coast - TIO Trager Park

I know we still have a lot of development left to go through, but without trying to sound cocky we could very well be looking at a 8-2 result going into the bye (Adelaide seems like a stretch). Even if we pull in a shocker against a North Melbourne or Essendon, 7-3 is still a handy launching point leading into the mid part of the season.

We could also go in 4-6 if we lose the 50/50's. 

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

There have been a few comments on the Watts Goal (which deserves the capital G).  I just want to point out the defensive work he did to start that passage.  He was the one who managed to get a hold on Dangerfield and hang on just enough to make him fumble a handball instead of bombing long.  That in itself would have won him some points, but he continued to chase and harass up the field until the team defence forced a loose ball.  To me that's as big a statement from him as the aggressive one-handed pickup, break away pace out of congestion and the goal itself. 

[rjay 23,902]

16 hours ago, fr_ap said:

 

What hasn't been noticed by many was the work and time Geelong put into Oliver. 

Make no mistake - Blicavs played a hard hard tag - a good choice as Clarrie couldnt get his arms up into the clear as Blicavs was so tall. Then he used his running capacity to run off him, and kicked a few. 

 

I didn't notice Blicavs playing a hard tag on Oliver. Blicavs played a proportion of the game in the ruck and often at centre & boundary contests Oliver's direct opponents were either Danger or Duncan. They rotated through him, no hard tag.

They did put work into him but I don't think it's anything new, The thought of a young player catching opposition teams unaware is a misnomer in this day and age.

The available video, scouting reports and amount of assistant coaches on the job means all teams have been aware of Oliver since his first game against GWS

[buck_nekkid 5,481]

Question:  what if Spencil goes down with an injury in the 8-12 weeks?  Is King even nearly ready?  Flippers is just a kid that gets pushed about in the VFL.

All of a sudden, ruck depth becomes a thing of concern.

 

Get well, soon, Maxy!

[Lucifers Hero 37,008]

8 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

Question:  what if Spencil goes down with an injury in the 8-12 weeks?  Is King even nearly ready?  Flippers is just a kid that gets pushed about in the VFL.

All of a sudden, ruck depth becomes a thing of concern.

 

Get well, soon, Maxy!

Don't ask!

King is still on the LTI for at least another 10 days.  He just turned 20 and has yet to play an AFL game.  Hardly played a Casey game either. 

This situation is exactly why coaches like John Longmire like to have 3/4 available ruckman on their list.  Our ruck depth has been a concern for some years.

We rolled the dice with our recruiting last year in not getting another back-up ruckman/forward/defender.  If Spencer goes down we pay the price and kiss goodbye to any chance of making finals this year.

[Lucifers Hero 37,008]

High praise from Goodwin for Hunt and Watts:http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-04-09/goodwin-praises-hunt-watts

• Goodwin said Hunt was “outstanding” and Watts “did a terrific job”.
• “He’s a true competitor Jayden. Our ball comes in his area and he wins a lot of one on ones,” he said...“His speed and offensive stuff, and ability to win contests is very good.
• “I thought he performed strongly, Jack. His second and third quarters were outstanding. And it’s a big role for him – he’s undersized, but I thought he fought on manfully and looked really good around the contest.”

A very astute assessment of the game by Hunt: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-04-09/hunt-still-on-the-chase  but he is clearly not happy with his game which is a good thing in terms of development.

And hopefully Jack has silence all his preseason critics:  “I thought I started pretty well and then when big Maxy went down in the ruck, I thought I competed well – and that’s what I thought early, as a forward, I was making the contest,” he said...“That’s all the coaches and my teammates wanted from me.  http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-04-09/a-frustrating-team-result-says-watts  That would be a really confidence boosting game for Jack.  No turning back now, young man!

 

[Dees2014 2,377]

15 hours ago, Demon Disciple said:

Spencer has some big shoes to fill.

He's been waiting for his turn for a while, let's hope he grabs it with both hands.

I would hope that when Max returns, we will accept the need to play both Gawn and Spencer at the same time. Imagine how we would view ourselves if what happened on Saturday, happened in the grand final? However good Max is - and he clearly is very very good, he will inevitably eventually get exhausted as the season goes on, and therefore become much less effective if he remains our single ruck option when he returns. I simply don't buy the argument that Spencer is not a forward therefore we should not play him. Gawn potentially could be our Paul Salmon, particularly if he puts more time into improving his forward skills, and could become a very powerful high marking forward, as well as great ruckman. I favour have max play ruck and forward, and Spencer ruck and bench. This means Spencer will ruck 60+ % of the time. 

It is not as though we are talking about a second rater with Spencer - he actually has played some very good games for us as first ruck. Still I guess over the next month or so he has the opportunity to prove his worth, and we could end up with both big ruckmen playing in the same side, which IMHO will greatly add potency to our side. 

In the long term this may prove a blessing in disguise, although I admit one hard to take.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Dees2014

[Dante 2,562]

7 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

There have been a few comments on the Watts Goal (which deserves the capital G).  I just want to point out the defensive work he did to start that passage.  He was the one who managed to get a hold on Dangerfield and hang on just enough to make him fumble a handball instead of bombing long.  That in itself would have won him some points, but he continued to chase and harass up the field until the team defence forced a loose ball.  To me that's as big a statement from him as the aggressive one-handed pickup, break away pace out of congestion and the goal itself. 

Maybe Jack will finally realise just how good he is and how good he can be, perhaps we can finally prosecute our argument that he was the number one draft pick in that year.

Jack is an exceptionally talented player and if he can get some self belief and if the media will get off his back we might see, over the next 5 to 6 years the elite player that's always been hidden away inside.

[Scipio 5,868]

51 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Don't ask!

King is still on the LTI for at least another 10 days.  He just turned 20 and has yet to play an AFL game.  Hardly played a Casey game either. 

This situation is exactly why coaches like John Longmire like to have 3/4 available ruckman on their list.  Our ruck depth has been a concern for some years.

We rolled the dice with our recruiting last year in not getting another back-up ruckman/forward/defender.  If Spencer goes down we pay the price and kiss goodbye to any chance of making finals this year.

I don't think it would be as bad as it might have been in recent years. Seeing teams like Geelong and Richmond at times not even competing for ball ups around the ground but still winning the contested ball and clearances is a reasonable indicator of that. If  Spencer did go down too, Pedersen and Watts would probably rotate, with maybe Declan Keilty a chance to come in and help out in that department. 

But yeah, I wish Max wasn't injured.