The Petracca v McCartin debate reprised

[Lucifers Hero 37,074]

Just now, A F said:

So you're suggesting, LH, that Roosy would be playing Brayshaw in the middle right now and would have played him there more, had it not been for Goody? Seems logical I suppose. What doesn't seem logical is why Goody would continue with this, despite Brayshaw clearly struggling, unless it goes back to that 'system' discussion again? Maybe Goody doesn't rate Brayshaw as highly as Viney, Petracca or Jones, who have all had more midfield minutes than Brayshaw.

Yes, that is what I am suggesting.  I would also hazard a guess that Roos would give Weid a rest at Casey as he did with Oliver last year when he lost form.  It is a long year in the seniors and Weid could easily get burnt out. 

Goodwin is doing things his way which is his right.  I haven't seen enough of him and how he operates to see how he rates players or what his 'system' really is.

[Binmans PA 26,117]

7 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yes, that is what I am suggesting.  I would also hazard a guess that Roos would give Weid a rest at Casey as he did with Oliver last year when he lost form.  It is a long year in the seniors and Weid could easily get burnt out. 

Goodwin is doing things his way which is his right.  I haven't seen enough of him and how he operates to see how he rates players or what his 'system' really is.

I think the 'system' is you come in and play your role and the FD and the MC's expectation is even if it's not your preferred or even best position, while others are ahead of you, you play your role. It's a good idea, but I'm not sure we should be doing it with our younger blokes. I know they have to learn the system, but they also need to find their feet at AFL level. If you're not playing to their strengths, they may never find their feet.

[Lucifers Hero 37,074]

1 minute ago, A F said:

I think the 'system' is you come in and play your role and the FD and the MC's expectation is even if it's not your preferred or even best position, while others are ahead of you, you play your role. It's a good idea, but I'm not sure we should be doing it with our younger blokes. I know they have to learn the system, but they also need to find their feet at AFL level. If you're not playing to their strengths, they may never find their feet.

Totally agree 100%!  Players need to find their feet and gain confidence in their strengths.

That 'system' sounds like Hawthorn: 'one soldier out another soldier in'.  The difference is Clarkson implemented that system over many years and skill development with an established and effective game plan.  We are nowhere near that point yet. 

[Binmans PA 26,117]

14 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Totally agree 100%!  Players need to find their feet and gain confidence in their strengths.

That 'system' sounds like Hawthorn: 'one soldier out another soldier in'.  The difference is Clarkson implemented that system over many years and skill development with an established and effective game plan.  We are nowhere near that point yet. 

It's also the system the Bulldogs use, who had McCartney for a couple of years, as we have had AND Roos, and then implemented it in Beveridge's first season.

I don't have a problem with the system. The groundwork has been laid correctly, I just wonder whether the younger players should be exempt from this until they find their feet. I think you have to be a little flexible with younger players, particularly, as you imply, before the system becomes wildly known and believed in as a 'Melbourne thing'. I think a lot of our players are trying to find their role and tellingly struggling. They're interestingly all midfielders too: Viney, Tyson and Brayshaw.

Edited April 17, 2017 by A F

[Lucifers Hero 37,074]

Young Paddy is going to find it hard going: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-04-17/geary-pleads-for-patience-on-underperforming-mccartin

His captain, Greary describes him as "He's more of a stay-at-home forward who's going to eventually be able to out-muscle defenders …' However, the game is moving away from this type of forward to the agile, mobile player. 

Not sure Richardson did him any favours when truthfully answering a Paddy vs Nick question and saying how professional Riewoldt is with this training. 

[joeboy 2,775]

I believe McCartin will suffer from the same syndrome our own John Fidge did about 30 years back.

He came to us as a man-mountain of a 17 year old who'd dominated schoolboy football because..he could, but either through lack of desire or lack of appropriate coaching for a precociously talented junior, he failed to rise to any heights and was eventually shafted to Brisbane and ignominy.

[spirit of norm smith 12,919]

So glad when Saints chose McCartin rather than Petracca. Dees were elated.

Petracca has only played one season after his knee injury so he is only a rookie really. Huge upside. Hopefully he is trained to attack when it presents (like his goal in the 4th v Dockers).

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

17 hours ago, A F said:

My favourite one of those break aways was the intercept from the Selwood turn over down at Geelong. He burst through the middle and kicked it straight down Spencer's throat, who later goaled. One of the most exciting passages of play that year. 

Am I the only one who thinks that this is the most overtalked and overrated piece of play around these parts?

The way posters talk about it is as if it was the making of Brayshaw. 

He read the flight of the ball well and made a decision to intercept mark the ball. It's no surprise he shot past several Geelong players on the way through due to the fact that they were running the opposite way right up until he marked it... And as for the kick, it was just a long kick to a 200cm giant. If you look at the replay closely you'll realise that the kick isn't actually really to the advantage of Spencer. I consider Spencer's mark the most impressive part of the play. Because it was an extremely fortunate mark. It just stuck to his mits. 

Anyway. Regardless of all of that, I'm confident Brayshaw will be a player in time. And believe like Roos, he is a pure ball winning mid and will be of most value when he's moved there full time.

Edited April 17, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Tim 2,798]

Craig Hutchison was all over this on FC: Saints should have picked Bontempelli instead of McCartin. 

Hutchy - the accurate one!

[Moonshadow 16,200]

20 minutes ago, Tim said:

Craig Hutchison was all over this on FC: Saints should have picked Bontempelli instead of McCartin. 

Hutchy - the accurate one!

Saw that and spat out my drink at his stupidity. Find it hilarious that these 'professionals' make such definitive statements with no basic research of the facts. Pity he's not paid on par to reporting accuracy.

[beelzebub 22,225]

1 hour ago, Tim said:

Craig Hutchison was all over this on FC: Saints should have picked Bontempelli instead of McCartin. 

Hutchy - the accurate one!

After the fact 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,410]

I think we mark McCartin harshly because (a) we want Petracca to be better than him and (b) because we subconsciously compare him with Hogan, who just happens to be a prodigious talent at a young age. Most key forwards aren't like Hogan. Hawkins, both Reiwoldts and Cameron Mooney are examples of KPFs who took time to develop. Hogan is more like Jonathan Brown - ready from day 1.

McCartin may or may not get there. Personally, I hope he does. And for what it's worth, I don't think Petracca is doing enough just yet to justify his supposed talent, either. He's showing flashes of brilliance, but not enough consistency. But he is getting better. 

[frankie_d 1,407]

On 15/04/2017 at 10:36 AM, ProDee said:

The following was posted by a Saints fan.  I can't vouch for the veracity, but I'd be concerned if I supported St Kilda.

"Read this article it has some interesting information... After reading this. If its true. I'm actually surprised we drafted a big pack marking forward with type 1 diabetes."

"Diabetics cannot withstand head impacts as well as those who are non-diabetic. This is because brain cells in diabetics have a very poor ability to use glucose and all diabetics tend to be deficient in magnesium. Magnesium is critical to ATP and energy production. In diabetes, since the brain has a poor ability to use energy, this makes the brain more sensitive to the effects of excitatory neurotransmitters like glutamate, which are released in massive amounts following a concussion."
 

I'd love a reference to the peer reviewed study/studies that "showed" this... 

[Gator 16,893]

2 hours ago, frankie_d said:

I'd love a reference to the peer reviewed study/studies that "showed" this... 

I look forward to your search and subsequent report.

[KingDingAling 3,596]

Even as a forward Petracca is ahead of McCartin.

Petracca is exactly the type of player we need in the midfield at the moment. He is effective with ball in hand - something many of our mids aren't. Petracca actually does something with the football when he has it. I hope he starts in the midfield along with Oliver and Salem or Jones.

[Stretch Johnson 2,568]

8 hours ago, Tim said:

Craig Hutchison was all over this on FC: Saints should have picked Bontempelli instead of McCartin. 

Hutchy - the accurate one!

Hutchy does a marvelous post draft phantom draft.

Not the same degree of difficulty as the pre draft one but super accurate.

[Skuit 9,177]

9 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Am I the only one who thinks that this is the most overtalked and overrated piece of play around these parts?

The way posters talk about it is as if it was the making of Brayshaw. 

He read the flight of the ball well and made a decision to intercept mark the ball. It's no surprise he shot past several Geelong players on the way through due to the fact that they were running the opposite way right up until he marked it... And as for the kick, it was just a long kick to a 200cm giant. If you look at the replay closely you'll realise that the kick isn't actually really to the advantage of Spencer. I consider Spencer's mark the most impressive part of the play. Because it was an extremely fortunate mark. It just stuck to his mits. 

Anyway. Regardless of all of that, I'm confident Brayshaw will be a player in time. And believe like Roos, he is a pure ball winning mid and will be of most value when he's moved there full time.

And you didn't even mention the worst aspect of that play. That that single mark and goal are responsible for sparking a dual-ruckmen argument that just won't go away and die.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

58 minutes ago, Stretch Johnson said:

Hutchy does a marvelous post draft phantom draft.

Not the same degree of difficulty as the pre draft one but super accurate.

I'm not sure if you missed the point. They were drafted in different years.

[rpfc 27,476]

10 hours ago, Tim said:

Craig Hutchison was all over this on FC: Saints should have picked Bontempelli instead of McCartin. 

Hutchy - the accurate one!

 

9 hours ago, beelzebub said:

After the fact 

Not even.

Different drafts.

[Stretch Johnson 2,568]

58 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

I'm not sure if you missed the point. They were drafted in different years.

Yes indeed I did.

[What 18,810]

Our own pick 3 from the same draft is going about as well as Patrick McCartin.

Interestingly both kids have had concussion issues and I wonder how it affects their confidence.

 

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,418]

This is no longer a debate. Petracca is so for ahead it is not funny.

I also think Roos article saying he would have Brayshaw at one was a bit strange. On what evidence would he pick Brayshaw ahead of Petracca?

That isn't saying Brayshaw won't be a good player, I'm sure he will come into his own as he develops further.

But Petracca has abilities that Brayshaw will never have.

[dazzledavey36 48,772]

44 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

This is no longer a debate. Petracca is so for ahead it is not funny.

I also think Roos article saying he would have Brayshaw at one was a bit strange. On what evidence would he pick Brayshaw ahead of Petracca?

That isn't saying Brayshaw won't be a good player, I'm sure he will come into his own as he develops further.

But Petracca has abilities that Brayshaw will never have.

Roos watched alot more of Brayshaw due to Tyler playing in the same team at TAC cup level.

Roos did a lot of mentoring role with Gus when he was with Sandy.

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,418]

2 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Roos watched alot more of Brayshaw due to Tyler playing in the same team at TAC cup level.

Roos did a lot of mentoring role with Gus when he was with Sandy.

I'm aware of that. I was more referring to his comments made in hindsight.

I hope he is right though as we will then have a very strong midfield if he is as good as Roos thinks he will be.

[Members' Wing 1,106]

1 hour ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

I'm aware of that. I was more referring to his comments made in hindsight.

I hope he is right though as we will then have a very strong midfield if he is as good as Roos thinks he will be.

Pretty sure he was saying that that was the order he had the three of them at the time.