The Petracca v McCartin debate reprised

[Moonshadow 16,125]

That big mark he took at the front of the pack against Carlton (I think) gave a taste of what he's capable of. Has a good reach and good hands.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Moonshadow

[Demon Jack 6,272]

16 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

That big mark he took at the front of the pack against Carlton (I think) gave a taste of what he's capable of. Has a good reach and good hands.

He gave a very good indication in his debut in the Hawthorn win last year as well. I think he had eight disposals and kicked two goals in the first half before he succumbed to a cramp/corkie. I remember he was very clean with his hands and showed very good attack at the footy in that game.

He might take a few years to build up his body and tank, but I'm very confident he'll get there and be a very threatening forward for us.

[frankie_d 1,407]

On 18/04/2017 at 0:59 PM, ProDee said:

I look forward to your search and subsequent report.

Turns out it's taken from a pinterest post. Full post:

"

Pro-Athlete Diabetics cannot withstand head impacts as well as those who are non-diabetic because cells in diabetics cannot use glucose well and all tend to be deficient in magnesium. This makes them more sensitive to the effects of excitatory neurotransmitters like glutamate, which are released in massive amounts following a concussion. Supplemental Magnesium and a High DHA, higher-fat diet are huge to boost brain energy levels to protect against head injuries

"

So, until further evidence, it's bullsh$t

[Gator 16,891]

9 hours ago, frankie_d said:

Turns out it's taken from a pinterest post. Full post:

"

Pro-Athlete Diabetics cannot withstand head impacts as well as those who are non-diabetic because cells in diabetics cannot use glucose well and all tend to be deficient in magnesium. This makes them more sensitive to the effects of excitatory neurotransmitters like glutamate, which are released in massive amounts following a concussion. Supplemental Magnesium and a High DHA, higher-fat diet are huge to boost brain energy levels to protect against head injuries

"

So, until further evidence, it's bullsh$t

Glad you went to the trouble.

I couldn't give a rat's toss bag either way.

I shared the information as I thought some may be interested and I also made it clear that I wasn't certain of the veracity of the claims. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by ProDee

[old55 21,217]

Weed is a beautiful kick too.  That's very important for a KPF.

[CatFishPig 434]

18 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

His handballs were standard handballs, nothing more, nothing less. For much of the game he was also opposed to a first gamer (he did have Gibson at times).

I think if you look back on his stats prior to joining the AFL you will also see that he was a low possession, low mark player. 

At this stage his attributes are those of a giant KPP. In the mould of a Hawkins, Boyd, Patton. The problem is he will never be that big.

Interesting way of looking at it. I actually have a very different take on it and query why we have gone need specific with such an early pick. It seems like Luke Molan, Lucas Cook all over again. Some very handy smaller types taken just after Weideman in his draft.

Then there is also this years draft to take into account as we forced our way out of it because we were so determined to draft a KPP. 

 

 

 

Like who please?

Edited April 20, 2017 by CatFishPig

[Watts the matter 1,235]

57 minutes ago, CatFishPig said:

Like who please?

Milera, Rioli, Gresham and Burton. Florin maybe also, but I haven't seen him play much.

[Binmans PA 25,900]

2 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Milera, Rioli, Gresham and Burton. Florin maybe also, but I haven't seen him play much.

I'd rather a decent KPF than a small forward. Sorry.

[Redleg 37,480]

3 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

Weed is a beautiful kick too.  That's very important for a KPF.

Not from 13 metres out.

[Binmans PA 25,900]

21 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Not from 13 metres out.

Far be it for me to be an apologist, but the corkie was clearly hampering him, Red.

Edited April 20, 2017 by A F

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,150]

4 minutes ago, A F said:

Far be it for me to be an apologist, but the corkie was clearly hampering him, Red.

Exactly.  A lot of trash being dished to a 19 year old, injured, key position forward.

[Binmans PA 25,900]

I think we judge young players incredibly harshly these days. Especially, when you think of some of the greats of the game. Blokes like Judd and Ablett weren't tearing it up in their first seasons. It took them 5 and 6 years respectively before they reached even a good, consistent player status. KPPs take even longer, as we've seen on countless occasions and yet people get frustrated that these young guys aren't immediately delivering. Jesse Hogan is not the norm. Clayton Oliver is not the norm. 

I understand it's frustrating when you see Sam running around and struggling to impact on the game and I share your sentiments, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's due time down at Casey or that he'll never make it. He needs time at AFL level and a base level for Weed should be his Round 1 performance. 

As PD has said a few times, he averaged acceptable numbers alongside Hogan in the first two weeks. This is the base level that Sam must achieve each week, but we've seen how much a talent like Darcy Moore has struggled without the foil of Cloke beside him. The same could be said of Weideman minus Hogan over the past fortnight.

Let's keep things in perspective here. And that goes for the knocks on Brayshaw as well.

Edited April 20, 2017 by A F

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

4 minutes ago, A F said:

I think we judge young players incredibly harshly these days. Especially, when you think of some of the greats of the game. Blokes like Judd and Ablett weren't tearing it up in their first seasons. It took them 5 and 6 years respectively before they reached even a good, consistent player status. KPPs take even longer, as we've seen on countless occasions and yet people get frustrated that these young guys aren't immediately delivering. Jesse Hogan is not the norm. Clayton Oliver is not the norm. 

I understand it's frustrating when you see Sam running around and struggling to impact on the game and I share your sentiments, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's due time down at Casey or that he'll never make it. He needs time at AFL level and a base level for Weed should be his Round 1 performance. 

As PD has said a few times, he averaged acceptable numbers alongside Hogan in the first two weeks. This is the base level that Sam must achieve each week, but we've seen how much a talent like Darcy Moore has struggled without the foil of Cloke beside him. The same could be said of Weideman minus Hogan over the past fortnight.

Let's keep things in perspective here. And that goes for the knocks on Brayshaw as well.

Well said. Geez there appears little latitude for players these days. Harmes is a great example. not the greatest kick but has played with ferocity and dare and to me appears to keep improving and most importantly gets the ball. Most on here would never have kept with Nathan Jones who 'lacked awareness', was a poor kick and got caught all the time. similair to hawks mates who kept saying Lewis was a turnover merchant (and was).

Thank god they are not coaches and realise you can actually learn this game and iron out weaknesses.

[Gator 16,891]

18 minutes ago, A F said:

...we've seen how much a talent like Darcy Moore has struggled without the foil of Cloke beside him. The same could be said of Weideman minus Hogan over the past fortnight.

Not to mention Weideman is still 19.  I think many forget he's still a teenager.

Darcy Moore is 21 and still struggling.

Edited April 20, 2017 by ProDee

[Binmans PA 25,900]

18 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

Well said. Geez there appears little latitude for players these days. Harmes is a great example. not the greatest kick but has played with ferocity and dare and to me appears to keep improving and most importantly gets the ball. Most on here would never have kept with Nathan Jones who 'lacked awareness', was a poor kick and got caught all the time. similair to hawks mates who kept saying Lewis was a turnover merchant (and was).

Thank god they are not coaches and realise you can actually learn this game and iron out weaknesses.

I think when you really know your brand and every player understands what is expected of them and what they have to do to complete their role for the team, weaknesses are a lot easier to counter and work on. If a player like Harmes can improved his DE (a statistic that I'm not fond of, but I think says something in the case of Harmes and Tyson), he becomes an invaluable contributor and another Jason Taylor genius pluck from nowhere. 

If we can get our 'system' up and running, I'll back Taylor's ability to give us 4 or 5 plug and plays almost every year. With the coaching team we currently have, I'm confident our guys are receiving the right advice to continually improve on their game.

Just back on Harmes too. I suspect his ability to know his body is what's holding him back just at the minute. When he turned it over at one stage against Freo, that was after he'd covered a lot of ground running hard to get involved. Get his fitness right and an ability to know when to steady and ensure he hits his target (ie. experience), will make him a much, much better player.

We will see and it's one of the reasons I'm finding the 2017 season so exciting. We're seeing incremental development across our entire list. So much so that when a player seems to be struggling, they stick out like a sore thumb (Tyson's DE% and Brayshaw's inability to find the footy).

Edited April 20, 2017 by A F

[ickey_11 145]

On 15/04/2017 at 11:47 AM, rhaz said:

Looking at the 2014 draft is interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_AFL_draft

From the top 10, Wright looks like he could develop into something special, and Darcy Moore also looks good but was never going to be available to us.

If you keep going down the draft, the only players that really stand out to me are Lever and Heeney (who also was never going to be available).

 

A few more gems in there: ANB, Billy, Mitch McGovern, Caleb Daniel, Touk Miller and Oscar!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

23 hours ago, ProDee said:

He's very brave in the air and will crash packs when he gets bigger, but it's not "all he has".

You either didn't see or have forgotten his first game against Hawthorn in round 20 last year.  Some of his linking handballs up the ground were excellent and showed that his ground skills and decision making were very good.  He had 11 handballs that day.

Saying "he's only got" when you have such a small sample size for a very young key forward is close minded.  I think he'll have a nicely rounded game. 

Saw the game (who didn't?), and have seen plenty of his footy at Casey, and all his AFL games obviously. I've seen his work below his knees, and I don't think it's a strength. One game against Hawks, in which his feature was his leading and marking (not a handful of handballs) doesn't convince me he has that skill in spades. The 4 games early this year in which he's done nothing of the sort DOES lead me to be concerned. Small sample size, and not cause for massive concern just yet, but it is a factor when it comes to team selection in a year we're 2-2 and potentially going to play finals. I need more than one ok game with a few handballs. I stand by what I said. He looks AFL quality when leading at the ball, and kicking at goal. Otherwise he looks par or sub par in other areas. Over runs the ball, finds himself out of position, and then because of his lack of tank doesn't run the other way, pr hold the ball in. You can think he'll have a nicely rounded game if you like. I prefer to see it first. For example, Gawn and Hogan had traits from day 1 that were excellent and didn't need to be added by coaching. What it'll come down to is how coachable he is. He's nowhere near in the right places yet.

[Gator 16,891]

1 minute ago, Dappa Dan said:

Saw the game (who didn't?), and have seen plenty of his footy at Casey, and all his AFL games obviously. I've seen his work below his knees, and I don't think it's a strength. One game against Hawks, in which his feature was his leading and marking (not a handful of handballs) doesn't convince me he has that skill in spades. The 4 games early this year in which he's done nothing of the sort DOES lead me to be concerned. Small sample size, and not cause for massive concern just yet, but it is a factor when it comes to team selection in a year we're 2-2 and potentially going to play finals. I need more than one ok game with a few handballs. I stand by what I said. He looks AFL quality when leading at the ball, and kicking at goal. Otherwise he looks par or sub par in other areas. Over runs the ball, finds himself out of position, and then because of his lack of tank doesn't run the other way, pr hold the ball in. You can think he'll have a nicely rounded game if you like. I prefer to see it first. For example, Gawn and Hogan had traits from day 1 that were excellent and didn't need to be added by coaching. What it'll come down to is how coachable he is. He's nowhere near in the right places yet.

I don't think he's "sub par" for a 7 game 19 year old key forward.

I like the traits I see.

Happy to disagree and we'll both watch him develop with the same hopes in mind.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

22 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

At this stage his attributes are those of a giant KPP. In the mould of a Hawkins, Boyd, Patton. The problem is he will never be that big.

 It seems like Luke Molan, Lucas Cook all over again.

Some very handy smaller types taken just after Weideman in his draft.

Then there is also this years draft to take into account as we forced our way out of it because we were so determined to draft a KPP. 

- Really? I don't reckon he's thin through the trunk like Watts. I see him more the Waite type. Very broad shoulders and rib cage. As long as he keeps the glutes/quad/core tidy, he'll get that bulk up nice and high. He's doing it already. But yes, he's not bulky in the way Jesse was when he was a teenager.

- Oh man. Don't say it....

- That's true of all KP players taken early. I remember before his breakout year the same things being said of Buddy and Roughy. I think by year 3 the nay sayers shut up. Still time for Weed.

- Did you mean last years draft? This year's we have all our picks still, at this stage.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

4 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I don't think he's "sub par" for a 7 game 19 year old key forward.

I like the traits I see.

Happy to disagree and we'll both watch him develop with the same hopes in mind.

For sure.

I'll point out, by the way. I'm critical, but not down on him. I reckon he'll kick 4 a few times this year, perhaps against teams who have KPD problems, or young teams who tire. And that's really all I need to see. i'm a big believer in the goals kicked stat. 1-2 per game in debut year. 15-30 from 10-15 games second year. Then 40 in year 3... so on and so forth. Depending on role. I look at Adelaide Lynch as a good rule of thumb. Now there's a damn fine footballer. Not a superstar, but by gee he's important. He was drafted in 2008. Didn't play 2009. Played 1 game in 2010. 5 in 2011 for 5 goals and got traded (in a three way for basically a late second rounder). If you go by that rule, by end of next year Weed would have played more and kicked more goals than Lynch in the same period. So I'm more than happy to stick with him. I don't even mind if he stays limited in the way I just suggested. Noone's going to complain if he kicks 60 and averaged ten touches a game. Especially if it gets Jesse up the ground.

[dino rover 617]

17 hours ago, frankie_d said:

Turns out it's taken from a pinterest post. Full post:

"

Pro-Athlete Diabetics cannot withstand head impacts as well as those who are non-diabetic because cells in diabetics cannot use glucose well and all tend to be deficient in magnesium. This makes them more sensitive to the effects of excitatory neurotransmitters like glutamate, which are released in massive amounts following a concussion. Supplemental Magnesium and a High DHA, higher-fat diet are huge to boost brain energy levels to protect against head injuries

"

So, until further evidence, it's bullsh$t

I want randomized control trial evidence, peer review, ethical approval and a comfy chair

[KingDingAling 3,589]

Petracca already looks ready to explode. So impressed with his the past month. He has shown consistency, and has stepped up when we needed. I think if we were to put Petracca in the midfield that he would add a lot. I believe he is absolutely ready. I think he could be elite right away. I look at the game from the weekend and it is evident that either Petracca or Salem need to be added to our midfield - perhaps even both at once (but maybe down the track). Petracca is very physical. I hope we start him in the midfield from here on in. Now Hogan is back in, I would be starting Petracca as a mid. Many of our other mids - Tyson, Viney, and even Lewis - have been wasteful and sloppy by foot. Petracca as a player is effective, Melbourne as a team at the moment is ineffective. We need to put our effective players in midfield position IMO. That way we can give our forwards better opportunities.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

3 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

- Really? I don't reckon he's thin through the trunk like Watts. I see him more the Waite type. Very broad shoulders and rib cage. As long as he keeps the glutes/quad/core tidy, he'll get that bulk up nice and high. He's doing it already. But yes, he's not bulky in the way Jesse was when he was a teenager.

- Oh man. Don't say it....

- That's true of all KP players taken early. I remember before his breakout year the same things being said of Buddy and Roughy. I think by year 3 the nay sayers shut up. Still time for Weed.

- Did you mean last years draft? This year's we have all our picks still, at this stage.

Yes. Our original pick was used on Will Brodie.

[Lucifers Hero 36,985]

Goodwin was interviewed on SEN on Friday night and was asked where he thought Petracca would be in about 5 years (who will then have just turned 26). 

Goodwin said he would be like Dusty Martin is now (who will be 26 this June).

That is something to savour

As Christian seems a more settled character I wouldn't be surprised if he fulfills Goodwin's prediction a few years earlier!

[Bates Mate 3,816]

To Have a debate you need 2 opposing views with reasonable arguments to try and persuade neutrals to your points of view.

There is currently no debate even St Kilda die hards could not argue that Mcartin was the right choice over Petracca so debate over!