Where we are heading

[Lucifers Hero 39,075]

In one of Roos recent interviews he said his initial plan was:

Year 1 - Defence (22 player team defence, not just the back 6)

Year 2 - Contested Ball (by 22 players)

Year 3 - Attacking Football (Starting from HB)

(And I recall at the beginning he said something about handing over an AFL ready list to a new Coach).

We were 22 players running around doing their own thing with no semblance of team work let alone contested football (remember the 'bruise free' label).  That is why it is taking Roos longer than other teams.  That it is taking so long is an indictment on where we were not on Roos or others now at the club.

Improvement not fast enough for some?  Fair enough.  But Roos did not have much to work with and it had to be done in stages.  Roos wasn't able to get experienced players so he had to (I think reluctantly) play kids.  It is easier to train them from scratch than to 'teach old dogs new tricks' especially if the latter aren't able/willing to learn.

Roos has implemented his plan.  Yeah, he has made some mistakes but I thank God he came to the Dees.

Where are we heading?  Onward and upward!  Only the players and Goodwin's team can decide how far!! 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

The club is clearly well managed now.

The club now has a competent and effective coaching group which has a clear focus on the correct things: developing a strong and competitive culture, player development, building a modern and sustainable game plan, recruiting competitive players etc.

We also now have competitive and talented list. Albeit it is super young and, across the list, it does not yet have the benefit of a lot of AFL games and, relevantly, many AFL games together.

I suspect the coaching group is secretly very pleased with the progress thus far  this year i.e. that this group now has so much depth and that the team has been more than competitive in several games this year against much more experienced opposition.

This year was always another development year. The future of this list, and the club, is still in the years to come. The foundations are now however in place.

 

 

[Pates 9,633]

Ironically given where Roos started with defence that is where our biggest issue lie right now. We lack class, poise, and smart footballers back there and we consistently give up silly goals down there. 

That said it sounds like we're targeting a good defender in the trade period so clearly this has been identified. 

I do love watching us get above 100 points more than once in a blue moon though!

[PaulRB 6,312]

With Salem, Lamumba, Melksham, Dunn, Garland out for various reasons, it's easy to see why we're looking thin across half back line.

[Lucifers Hero 39,075]

10 minutes ago, Pates said:

Ironically given where Roos started with defence that is where our biggest issue lie right now. We lack class, poise, and smart footballers back there and we consistently give up silly goals down there. 

That said it sounds like we're targeting a good defender in the trade period so clearly this has been identified. 

I do love watching us get above 100 points more than once in a blue moon though!

Yes agreed, much more enjoyable than 100 pt defeats!

Re our defence being our biggest issue.  That is true and hopefully will be remedied this year.  Having said that our back 6 are a lot more effective when the other 16 players upfield do their job with team based defensive work and contested football ie the learnings from Roos' Year 1 and Year 2 plan.

[Pates 9,633]

Just now, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yes agreed, much more enjoyable than 100 pt defeats!

Re our defence being our biggest issue.  That is true and hopefully will be remedied this year.  Having said that our back 6 are a lot more effective when the other 16 players upfield do their job with team based defensive work and contested football ie the learnings from Roos' Year 1 and Year 2 plan.

Very true, most of the games we've lost have been from poor defensive work starting in the forward line and allowing easy passage into the oppositions attack. Saints and Bulldogs being the perfect example, I didn't see the game but it sounds like the Sydney game as well.

[Deeoldfart 8,001]

41 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

With Salem, Lamumba, Melksham, Dunn, Garland out for various reasons, it's easy to see why we're looking thin across half back line.

Yep, and the departure of Frawley fairly early in Roos' tenure left a hole for a kpd that will take time to fill to that level of competence and experience.

[deanox 9,796]

Interestingly enough this is a comparison of points for and against for 2015 vs 2016

 

Points for: 71.5 vs 96.4

Points against: 92.9 v 92.9

 

That's right,  our points against are exactly the same per game as last year but our points for are more than 4 goals per week better. 

And people are saying we aren't improving? 

 

We were all happy with our defence last year,  why not this year?  I suspect it's because of the account of "easy" goals we've conceded (I heard a commentator say we've conceded the most from inside 30m). 

But that doesn't concern me. Because of we are conceding the same points,  but more in a certain way (uncontested player over the top) that means we must have improved the rest of our defence to account for this increase. Our new defensive structures pressure the ball carrier and the contest, making scoring hard, unless the structure falls down and they get it over the top.  

So when our game plan clicks and we can stop those over the top goals, we will probably cut the total points against as well. 

 

Edit: this is why I'm happy we don't change to plan B when teams score against us. Because we need to learn how to address those problems. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by deanox

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

Most of our losses have come from losing in the middle.  When we lose in the middle, our defensive structure and inexperienced young defenders are badly exposed. Once our gun young midfielders (Oliver, Brayshaw and Petracca in particular) are fit, experienced and seasoned, that will happen less and less often.

I think the best example of how we are possibly sacrificing a little bit of immediate success for future success is the continued selection of some of the younger players in the backline.  Wagner I think was very early on identified as exactly the type of player they want in the backline, and his selection throughout the NAB and then an early debut indicated that despite perhaps not seeming to be fully ready for AFL, they wanted to fast track him.  Credit to him, he's performed more than admirably imo.  OMac is in the same boat I think.  But when we loss the contest around the middle, guys like those two are somewhat exposed.

In two years form now, we won't lose as often in the middle AND the backline (which will look very similar to what it does now personnel wise) will be far stronger one on one and more experience playing to the coaches structures and each other.  The results will come.

[Maldonboy38 6,387]

Nthan Jones is a perfect representation  of where our club has been, where it is6now, and where it is heading. 

He seemed to be a good natural footballer with limitations who improved faster than expected and became the most consistent, reliable and loved player. He was overlooked for the captaincy when many realised he should have benn at least co-captain. The club was a tragic image of an old suit-and-tie boys club more suited to the1960s. Many of the players around Nathan Jones were VFL standard, or playing atthat level because of the culture.

The Bartlett, PJ, Roos era begins. Nathan is elected captain but is massively challenged about the nature of leadership by Roos and becomes an outstanding captain, leader  and embodiment of our new hope and direction. He developed a media ablity and represented a whole new culture of excellence, winning and success, at least in terms of planning and future direction. His inspiration on the field turned into a new feel about our club.

Now, he is the face and leader of a club that has set high standards, has outstanding personnel on every line and department, little or no unmanageable debt, has a great list, and is competitive in most games. I consider him one of the best cpatains in the AFL and the fact that MFC is improving at the same rate of his leadership is no surprise to me at all. 

Keep watching him if you want to know where we are heading. 

[praha 11,225]

1 hour ago, PaulRB said:

With Salem, Lamumba, Melksham, Dunn, Garland out for various reasons, it's easy to see why we're looking thin across half back line.

Well those four aren't long-term prospects, with Dunn, Garland and H probably on their last AFL contracts, and Salem due for a move to the wing or middle as per the original plan. Salem's skills and poise don't make up for his lack of defensive accountability imo and he's no less a liability than having OMac down there, who can at least play the man and hit the body. Jetta is our "loose" defender and certainly our most reliable defender, so we don't need Salem down there.

I would argue that those four being out is a blessing in disguise. Hunt, Wagner, OMac, TMac, Jetta and Bugg are probably our long-term defenders. It's funny how when we win, we love this dynamic, but when we lose, it's basically they're all dumb footballers. Yeah, they play dumb football occasionally, but is there a younger, more inexperienced backline in the comp? Comparatively, I'd say we're doing spectacularly to develop this lot, and I'd say they're doing wonderfully. We're doing better defensively overall than we were with Dunn, Garland, Frawley down there every week. Hunt and Wagner provide fantastic run, something we haven't had out of half-back for about 10 years. Good defense leads to attack. We're much better in transition with our current defensive structure. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by praha

[mauriesy 7,191]

40 minutes ago, deanox said:

Interestingly enough this is a comparison of points for and against for 2015 vs 2016

Points for: 71.5 vs 96.4
Points against: 92.9 v 92.9

71.5 for, 92.9 against = misery
96.4 for, 92.9 against = happiness!

(Apologies to Mr Micawber) 

[Dr. Gonzo 23,977]

31 minutes ago, praha said:

Well those four aren't long-term prospects, with Dunn, Garland and H probably on their last AFL contracts, and Salem due for a move to the wing or middle as per the original plan. Salem's skills and poise don't make up for his lack of defensive accountability imo and he's no less a liability than having OMac down there, who can at least play the man and hit the body. Jetta is our "loose" defender and certainly our most reliable defender, so we don't need Salem down there.

I would argue that those four being out is a blessing in disguise. Hunt, Wagner, OMac, TMac, Jetta and Bugg are probably our long-term defenders. It's funny how when we win, we love this dynamic, but when we lose, it's basically they're all dumb footballers. Yeah, they play dumb football occasionally, but is there a younger, more inexperienced backline in the comp? Comparatively, I'd say we're doing spectacularly to develop this lot, and I'd say they're doing wonderfully. We're doing better defensively overall than we were with Dunn, Garland, Frawley down there every week. Hunt and Wagner provide fantastic run, something we haven't had out of half-back for about 10 years. Good defense leads to attack. We're much better in transition with our current defensive structure. 

I agree with your sentiment but it is an example of short term pain for long term gain. We are light on down back (experience wise) which is part of the reason we haven't been as sound down there this year as some would have hoped (though performing above expectation considering the personnel, I would've thought).

[beelzebub 23,254]

4 hours ago, PaulRB said:

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/16328432/demons-closest-afl-flag-clubs-top-eight-says-gary-buckenara

interesting

This a fan survey  but also kinda interesting

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/collingwood-richmond-fans-deliver-vote-of-no-confidence/news-story/355eb35fdad7a104c1a3725a7e72ba35

[PaulRB 6,312]

28 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

interesting

This a fan survey  but also kinda interesting

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/collingwood-richmond-fans-deliver-vote-of-no-confidence/news-story/355eb35fdad7a104c1a3725a7e72ba35

Amazing what losing to Melbourne does for a fan's confidence in their team...

 

[beelzebub 23,254]

8 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

Amazing what losing to Melbourne does for a fan's confidence in their team...

 

they better get used to it !! 

[Dante 2,705]

I believe that, to date, Roos has delivered what he said he would and I have no doubt that when he says he will instill a style of play that is sustainable in finals matches, he will do that too. We are impatient, understandably, and want it to happen now but usually quick fixes unravel just as quickly. 

We've had good teams from time to time but I've never thought we had one good enough to win a flag, there were always flaws and we always lacked personnel, at the moment we are eliminating the flaws and gathering the personnel.  We have a young side but very few senior leaders and until we have some of these we will struggle to compete with the best in the finals, we have to wait until our good younger players become leaders before we can hope for a Flag.   

That may take a few more years yet but when we have Hogan, Petracca, Brayshaw, Weed, Viney, Hunt, Wagner etc. on 50 to 80 games, we will be ready.

 

[beelzebub 23,254]

where are we heading >>>>>>>>>>>> Good win(s)

[Diamond_Jim 12,406]

Sorry but the bandwagon is still some way in the distance for me.

I am sure we all felt the same way in the early Bailey years. (Forget which year but all the pundits said we had the best young list and we were on the way to the finals next year etc etc.) The other thread about who in our team is "elite" makes me cringe as did the "can we make the finals" thread.

Next game against Adelaide will be interesting. They are the 8th ranked team and we are playing them at the MCG. If we are anywhere near close to on the way up that is a game we should win  but then again ??

[jackaub 1,402]

4 hours ago, Deeoldfart said:

Yep, and the departure of Frawley fairly early in Roos' tenure left a hole for a kpd that will take time to fill to that level of competence and experience.

We should have filled it the same year or one year earlier when everybody knew he was gawn

[deanox 9,796]

1 hour ago, jackaub said:

We should have filled it the same year or one year earlier when everybody knew he was gawn

With who?  Which young KPD was available and wanting to move to MFC for market rate? 

[deanox 9,796]

3 hours ago, Dante said:

I believe that, to date, Roos has delivered what he said he would...

 

I agree. 

 

We said we were aiming for a final in 2016 and we are. 

Do I think we'll make it from here?  Probably not.  But we are still in contention. If a couple of games had gone our way early (essendon and north) we'd be 8 and 5, entrenched in the top 8. When was the last time we could still say that at round 12??

This year we are competing for finals. We have not said that since 2006. Other years have been about "hoping to get better". In his third season,  Roos has taken us from VFL standard,  the laughing stock, to a legit chance for finals. 

In 2013 and 2014 we won a combined 6 games.  We've already got that this year. 

[PaulRB 6,312]

This year our team has added (or looked to) games to our young quality coming through.

Players under 21 - Oliver, Stretch, Brayshaw, Harmes, OMac, Neal-Bullen, Petracca, Salem.

Players 21 to 25 - Hogan, Hunt, Frost, Bugg, Viney, Kennedy, Kent, Tyson, TMac, Gawn, Melksham, Michie, Newton, Trengove, Vandenberg.

There's gold in them there hills!!!

Edited June 22, 2016 by PaulRB

[Je Roos Salem 661]

13 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Roos' focus has always been to prepare the side for the next coach. Winning 12 games this year to only win 10 next year isn't the goal. I think they're willing to forego some wins this year (winning 10 say) to win 12-14 next year. Keep in mind we are still developing, fielding the youngest team most weeks, while still being able to notch up wins (currently 6 & 7).

I understand the youth issue, it's good to see young guys get games, Hunt and Wagner have mostly deserved their spots, Dunn and Grimes have been the unlucky seniors. I guess O.Mac is the one guy who seems to stay in for seasoning, regardless of form.

I'm not convinced by that logic, maybe in the past I was, but I am convinced that if we don't have that improvement people will make excuses that 2018 is meant to be the year. Let's call it "Next year syndrome", a side effect of prolonged mediocrity.

[Akum 2,660]

12 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Sorry but the bandwagon is still some way in the distance for me.

I am sure we all felt the same way in the early Bailey years. (Forget which year but all the pundits said we had the best young list and we were on the way to the finals next year etc etc.) The other thread about who in our team is "elite" makes me cringe as did the "can we make the finals" thread.

Next game against Adelaide will be interesting. They are the 8th ranked team and we are playing them at the MCG. If we are anywhere near close to on the way up that is a game we should win  but then again ??

This. What really needs to be done in the second half is to knock off one or two top 8 sides. That will really set us up for 2017.

In the Roos years we've really only beaten teams below us or around about us (well, maybe Geelong last year were an exception, but let's face it, they weren't nearly as good at the time as they are now). Plus a few honourable losses to some top teams along the way.

If all we do this year is beat teams below us or around about us, with a few honourable losses to top teams, that's scarcely an improvement. To nail the improvement for this year, we really need one or two big scalps, which will need everyone to click on the same day.