Changes vs. Adelaide

[PaulRB 6,363]

Strangely, I have a good feeling about this game.

At home, kids refreshed after the break, settled side, top 8 team to knock off...

What more could we want? 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,859]

Just now, PaulRB said:

Strangely, I have a good feeling about this game.

At home, kids refreshed after the break, settled side, top 8 team to knock off...

What more could we want? 

Walker, Betts and Jenkins to be late outs. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Ethan Tremblay said:

Walker, Betts and Jenkins to be late outs. 

Or the whole team decides not to show up and we win by forfeit.

[PaulRB 6,363]

Just now, Ethan Tremblay said:

Walker, Betts and Jenkins to be late outs. 

Whimp!

Time for some of our potential to take it up a notch or two.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

19 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

Strangely, I have a good feeling about this game.

We match up well against them, the midfield battle will be crucial. We need vandenBerg in the middle to help win the hard ball, not in the forward line.

[PaulRB 6,363]

1 minute ago, Clint Bizkit said:

We match up well against them, the midfield battle will be crucial. We need vandenBerg in the middle to help win the hard ball, not in the forward line.

Agree, plus big games around the ball from Viney, Oliver and Petracca.

[What 18,810]

If not for that stupid Casey bye we may have seen Angus come in this week.  Somethings gotta be done about VFL fixturing (and AFL for that matter)

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

1 hour ago, PaulRB said:

Agree, plus big games around the ball from Viney, Oliver and Petracca.

Help if oliver starts backing in his kicking opposed to looking to handball every time. 

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,504]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Or the whole team decides not to show up and we win by forfeit.

Hopefully their bus travels via the Montague Bridge.

[DeeZone 9,837]

Unfortunately my family & I will be up in Mildura for a Xmas in July with the Rello's this weekend and will miss our first home game for the year. Just hope we go man on man until we settle in and hopefully earn a win against the Crow's. love to see Garlett, Grimes and Hulett play Sunday . Go DEE's!!!

[Skuit 10,031]

7 hours ago, Gorgoroth said:

Help if oliver starts backing in his kicking opposed to looking to handball every time. 

It's another case of poor MFC development. The coaching staff should have said, 'see ball, get ball, kick ball.'  

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 6/28/2016 at 10:35 AM, Clint Bizkit said:

This is a winnable game.

T. McDonald to Walker, Frost to Jenkins, O. McDonald to Lynch and Jetta to Betts are solid match-ups.

 

I'm sorry Clint but Frost is not a solid 'match up' on anyone at present. He might look ok when he gets free and receives occasionally but on a one on one I wouldn't back him at all. Same with OMac. Although he is much better at using it when the zone and press are on in our forward half and he is def better in a one on one than Frosty. Again, one on one (when isolated) he isn't quite up to it at this point vs Dunny/Pedo on a 2nd string quality opponent.

Omac should be able to handle the one on one better in a season or 2 once he gets an AFL body/strength, Frost also. We will bleed goals whenever these two are played together down back against a quality/experienced forward line like the crows. 

Frost is easily outside our best 22 right now and surprised he gets a game ahead of Dunny/Pedo (when not injured). I understand the Omac preference to a degree in terms of blooding vs Dunn/Pedo but some d'landers may need to take a visit to Specsavers when it comes to Frosty being best 22.

Pedo and/or Dunny are a mile ahead of Frosty (in defence) at this point in their careers. Wind the clock forward 2 to 3 years well that may be a diff matter (age obviously a factor also).

Edited June 29, 2016 by Rusty Nails

[deanox 9,915]

6 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

...He (Frost) might look ok when he gets free and receives occasionally but on a one on one I wouldn't back him at all. Same with OMac. Although he is much better at using it when the zone and press are on in our forward half and he is def better in a one on one than Frosty. Again, one on one (when isolated)...

...Frost is easily outside our best 22 right now...

...Pedo and/or Dunny are a mile ahead of Frosty (in defence) at this point in their careers...

Rusty, I think you've nailed the reasons why Frost and Omac are being picked ahead of the others but either haven't realised or disagree with them. 

 

The style of football Roos and the other coaches are trying to implement does not involve any one on one defensive contests.

The reason is, that a one on one contest is usually won by the attacker anyway. I'd love for Hogan, Watts, Pedo, Truck etc. to be left one or with a defender, and I don't care which defender, it could be the best in the game.  We'd always have a better than 50/50 to win the contest either through a mark, a free or a crumb to advantage. 

As a result, they don't care if one on one is not a strength of Omac or Frost. But the ability to be mobile and agile, to read the play, to back themselves, to play as a team and play as a functional cog in the zone and provide attacking run is MUCH more important. 

 

Now I understand that if the zone falls down the man on man skill may come in handy on the last line of defense, but that is only required when the zone falls down so it is better to pick the players to execute the system than to protect against its failures.

[deanox 9,915]

To illustrate the above, Reiwoldt and Membrey kicked 8.3 between them with both Dunn and Pederson in the side. 

 

The problem that day want the lack of competitors or man on man skills it was the collapse of the zone through the midfield and the defensive 6.

It's not a surprise Dunn hasn't been seen since. 

[M_9 2,082]

Greg Denham made the point this morning that in their last 3 encounters (Saints, WC and North) the Crows scores in the last quarter of each match have been 3.5 to 1.4, 6.5 to 0. and 4.10 to 1.1.

So they've scored a total of 13.20 to 2.5 in those three last quarters.

I reckon we'd want to be in front or very close at 3/4 time.

[Willmoy1947 4,086]

I'm hoping for some variation in the matchups in this game with Goodwin input maybe playing a more pro-active role especially down back for us.

[bing181 9,235]

2 hours ago, willmoy said:

I'm hoping for some variation in the matchups in this game with Goodwin input maybe playing a more pro-active role especially down back for us.

Goodwin doesn't have input???

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

10 hours ago, deanox said:

To illustrate the above, Reiwoldt and Membrey kicked 8.3 between them with both Dunn and Pederson in the side. 

 

The problem that day want the lack of competitors or man on man skills it was the collapse of the zone through the midfield and the defensive 6.

It's not a surprise Dunn hasn't been seen since. 

I am with you on the Dunn & Pedo in the same side (both mainly playing down back) error Ox. Just as the combo of Omac and Frost in defence is also an error.

You don't want either of these combos happening.

Pedo can easily do the attacking work of Frost down back and probably add a little extra oomph IMO, plus cover his man in a one on one contest.

Believe me if the ball is coming in long to a one on one to Membrey and we are 3 points up with 20 seconds to go, i know who i would want to have defending that bomb out of Frost/Pedo at this point to potentially save a match.

As i said, with another 2 pre seasons and some more experience under his belt, with a few more (occasional) games at AFL level and a heap at VFL, Frost may well overtake our more experienced tall defenders or match them, some of who aren't exactly in career best form and who may have seen their best. But he isn't there right now.

We also get plenty of attacking run already from Wagner, Hunt and Tmac. Sometimes you need a mix where the Key Defender can also take intercept marks/spoil alot (aka Gibson) across half back. I would argue Pedo and Tmac are the best 2 at doing so and to some degree Nev also. Frosty certainly isn't going to those levels at this point.

We can also add H in there if we need more run who comes with Premiership pedigree (vocal leadership down back).

In addition if you're wanting to improve our run off HB, i would think the FD (or any decent footy club) would be expecting that player to be hitting short/medium targets (especially on 45 inside where poss) on a fairly regular basis. Otherwise all that running amounts to not much if the ball is going to be coming back on a regular basis over the defenders heads.

Frost is the last person you want (running off HB) ball in hand right now, having the worst average DE % in the team this season (32nd out of 32 players having played 2 or more matches so far) and also coming 2nd last in effective disposal averages (ranked 31st).

I also agree re the Zone being effective, but a key part of any zone being effective most of the time no matter how fancy/nouveau it might appear, is to be able to hit targets by hand/foot (but especially by foot) at a reasonably high percentage when you get the ball back in order to move the conveyance out of HB and into your forward line ASAP. If on the other hand you don't do this so well, you will of course see ball coming straight back over the defenders heads.

People who looking for reasons for so many 'joe the goose' goals can certainly add this one (mainly poor kicking efficiency off HB) as a key reason.

We have been one of the worst this year in too many matches! The Hawks would probably be the most efficient kicks in this regard. Hence they can lose the count on many stat fronts and still win matches. There's no way they (or any other top 6 clubs) would allow a Frost (at this stage in his career) into their back half, other than a few cameo appearances against lessor opponents when 'managing' or covering an injury of one of their regular defenders.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Rusty Nails

[deanox 9,915]

1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

I am with you on the Dunn & Pedo in the same side (both mainly playing down back) error Ox. Just as the combo of Omac and Frost in defence is also an error.

You don't want either of these combos happening.

Pedo can easily do the attacking work of Frost down back and probably add a little extra oomph IMO, plus cover his man in a one on one contest.

Believe me if the ball is coming in long to a one on one to Membrey and we are 3 points up with 20 seconds to go, i know who i would want to have defending that bomb out of Frost/Pedo at this point to potentially save a match.

As i said, with another 2 pre seasons and some more experience under his belt, with a few more (occasional) games at AFL level and a heap at VFL, Frost may well overtake our more experienced tall defenders or match them, some of who aren't exactly in career best form and who may have seen their best. But he isn't there right now.

We also get plenty of attacking run already from Wagner, Hunt and Tmac. Sometimes you need a mix where the Key Defender can also take intercept marks/spoil alot (aka Gibson) across half back. I would argue Pedo and Tmac are the best 2 at doing so and to some degree Nev also. Frosty certainly isn't going to those levels at this point.

We can also add H in there if we need more run who comes with Premiership pedigree (vocal leadership down back).

In addition if you're wanting to improve our run off HB, i would think the FD (or any decent footy club) would be expecting that player to be hitting short/medium targets (especially on 45 inside where poss) on a fairly regular basis. Otherwise all that running amounts to not much if the ball is going to be coming back on a regular basis over the defenders heads.

Frost is the last person you want (running off HB) ball in hand right now, having the worst average DE % in the team this season (32nd out of 32 players having played 2 or more matches so far) and also coming 2nd last in effective disposal averages (ranked 31st).

I also agree re the Zone being effective, but a key part of any zone being effective most of the time no matter how fancy/nouveau it might appear, is to be able to hit targets by hand/foot (but especially by foot) at a reasonably high percentage when you get the ball back in order to move the conveyance out of HB and into your forward line ASAP. If on the other hand you don't do this so well, you will of course see ball coming straight back over the defenders heads.

People who looking for reasons for so many 'joe the goose' goals can certainly add this one (mainly poor kicking efficiency off HB) as a key reason.

We have been one of the worst this year in too many matches! The Hawks would probably be the most efficient kicks in this regard. Hence they can lose the count on many stat fronts and still win matches. There's no way they (or any other top 6 clubs) would allow a Frost (at this stage in his career) into their back half, other than a few cameo appearances against lessor opponents when 'managing' or covering an injury of one of their regular defenders.

Good well measured reply RN thanks.  A lot is hard to argue with, especially the part about disposal. 

It is clear to me that Omac and Frost fit into a longer term plan with the zone style defense and the attack from the back attitude and I agree they may not be ready but I actually don't think we've lost too many games this year due to the "defending" of our back 6. The losses have been mainly due to losing the midfield or a break down in the zone across half back.

 

In light of your comments re disloyal etc the only thing I can offer is the Dunn, Garland and Pedo just don't do the right things down back door the current game plan. I don't know this for sure but it surely seems to be the case.  If they aren't doing the right thing and aren't in Goodwin's plans, why play them?

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

20 minutes ago, deanox said:

Good well measured reply RN thanks.  A lot is hard to argue with, especially the part about disposal. 

It is clear to me that Omac and Frost fit into a longer term plan with the zone style defense and the attack from the back attitude and I agree they may not be ready but I actually don't think we've lost too many games this year due to the "defending" of our back 6. The losses have been mainly due to losing the midfield or a break down in the zone across half back.

 

In light of your comments re disloyal etc the only thing I can offer is the Dunn, Garland and Pedo just don't do the right things down back door the current game plan. I don't know this for sure but it surely seems to be the case.  If they aren't doing the right thing and aren't in Goodwin's plans, why play them?

I think Pedo has been out of the side only due to illness, i beleve he had pneumonia, which can linger and take the stuffing out of you. They will send him back to Casey for match fitness and i reckon we will see him back in a fortnight, he was a solid contributor prior to illness and streets ahead of Dunn, Garland, Frost n Omac in my opinion!

[binman 42,941]

13 hours ago, deanox said:

Rusty, I think you've nailed the reasons why Frost and Omac are being picked ahead of the others but either haven't realised or disagree with them. 

 

The style of football Roos and the other coaches are trying to implement does not involve any one on one defensive contests.

The reason is, that a one on one contest is usually won by the attacker anyway. I'd love for Hogan, Watts, Pedo, Truck etc. to be left one or with a defender, and I don't care which defender, it could be the best in the game.  We'd always have a better than 50/50 to win the contest either through a mark, a free or a crumb to advantage. 

As a result, they don't care if one on one is not a strength of Omac or Frost. But the ability to be mobile and agile, to read the play, to back themselves, to play as a team and play as a functional cog in the zone and provide attacking run is MUCH more important. 

 

Now I understand that if the zone falls down the man on man skill may come in handy on the last line of defense, but that is only required when the zone falls down so it is better to pick the players to execute the system than to protect against its failures.

Great post. Amazing how many people haven't grasped the implications of the shift to a zone defense and high press. Reminds me going to games when teams started chipping the ball around and crossing across goals and fans screaming to kick it long.

To you're well made points id add that it is critical defensive units develop a synergy, particularly wirh a zone defense. The only way to build that synergy ito play lots of games together as a unit.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

1 hour ago, deanox said:

Good well measured reply RN thanks.  A lot is hard to argue with, especially the part about disposal. 

It is clear to me that Omac and Frost fit into a longer term plan with the zone style defense and the attack from the back attitude and I agree they may not be ready but I actually don't think we've lost too many games this year due to the "defending" of our back 6. The losses have been mainly due to losing the midfield or a break down in the zone across half back.

 

In light of your comments re disloyal etc the only thing I can offer is the Dunn, Garland and Pedo just don't do the right things down back door the current game plan. I don't know this for sure but it surely seems to be the case.  If they aren't doing the right thing and aren't in Goodwin's plans, why play them?

I think Dunn and Pedo do the right things in a one on one Ox but as you say, Dunn doesn't have the attacking/run & carry/short to medium passing game (accuracy by foot) that the FD is probably looking for now as you mentioned. Dunn a lovely long kick of course.

Garland has the one on one side covered ok as he tends to get 2nd or 3rd string forwards (Cyril doesn't count here!) but gets found out with ball in hand as he often makes poor choices or misses shorter targets by foot.

The FD have obviously decided we can't afford to play a more traditional 'stay at home' style defender, like Dunn, or a more attacking one that unfortunately is quite flawed in decision making/and finding targets.

Reckon Pedo is another matter (see below)

1 hour ago, Hell Bent said:

I think Pedo has been out of the side only due to illness, i beleve he had pneumonia, which can linger and take the stuffing out of you. They will send him back to Casey for match fitness and i reckon we will see him back in a fortnight, he was a solid contributor prior to illness and streets ahead of Dunn, Garland, Frost n Omac in my opinion!

What is your source HB? I must have been asleep. The heavy knock (whack) at the end of last season against Brissy may have taken its toll also?

Not sure about streets ahead of Omac but on his day I agree, Pedo fits the 'all round' defence/intercept/transition somewhat better than Dunn, Garlo but a fair margin ahead of Frost. Omac has strengths/weaknesses. Pedo also but is probably the better all round player/defender at the moment when fully fit.

[Demonsone 2,037]

On June 29, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Skuit said:

It's another case of poor MFC development. The coaching staff should have said, 'see ball, get ball, kick ball.'  

Really??? Oliver has played what 9 games & was a rising star & played so well & your having a crack @ the club development .. Honestly people our expectation of our 1st yr players is over the top.. I scratch my head & wonder that some people have no idea 

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

6 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I think Dunn and Pedo do the right things in a one on one Ox but as you say, Dunn doesn't have the attacking/run & carry/short to medium passing game (accuracy by foot) that the FD is probably looking for now as you mentioned. Dunn a lovely long kick of course.

Garland has the one on one side covered ok as he tends to get 2nd or 3rd string forwards (Cyril doesn't count here!) but gets found out with ball in hand as he often makes poor choices or misses shorter targets by foot.

The FD have obviously decided we can't afford to play a more traditional 'stay at home' style defender, like Dunn, or a more attacking one that unfortunately is quite flawed in decision making/and finding targets.

Reckon Pedo is another matter (see below)

What is your source HB? I must have been asleep. The heavy knock (whack) at the end of last season against Brissy may have taken its toll also?

Not sure about streets ahead of Omac but on his day I agree, Pedo fits the 'all round' defence/intercept/transition somewhat better than Dunn, Garlo but a fair margin ahead of Frost. Omac has strengths/weaknesses. Pedo also but is probably the better all round player/defender at the moment when fully fit.

No direct club source but his illness was mentioned several times on the Dees website and here on DL. I think he may have played his first game 2 weeks ago at Casey in the worst conditions possible for a big man, then the bye, so he has zero match fitness.

[Adam The God 30,249]

21 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I think Dunn and Pedo do the right things in a one on one Ox but as you say, Dunn doesn't have the attacking/run & carry/short to medium passing game (accuracy by foot) that the FD is probably looking for now as you mentioned. Dunn a lovely long kick of course.

Garland has the one on one side covered ok as he tends to get 2nd or 3rd string forwards (Cyril doesn't count here!) but gets found out with ball in hand as he often makes poor choices or misses shorter targets by foot.

The FD have obviously decided we can't afford to play a more traditional 'stay at home' style defender, like Dunn, or a more attacking one that unfortunately is quite flawed in decision making/and finding targets.

Well, that's clearly untrue, because Tommy Mac is an attacking defender with horrible decision-making, who struggles to hit regular targets. I take it you're referring to Garland here. His problem is that he's not attacking enough. His instinct isn't to attack and when your offensive weapon is your ball transition from defence, a player like that isn't long for that game plan.