Big Max can't do it all

[Farmer 889]

the game is being replayed at 12 today.

i suggest those able to watch, concentrate on Max's second half. Whereas in the first half he really was dominant, in the 2nd he was not. His very inexperienced opponent often won the ruck duels. I'm not certain if Max actually took a mark after half time.

he really must be treated carefully. As I've said before I just don't understand the non-use of Frost in the ruck. What happens incidentally if Pedersen is suspended. He pinch hits, quite effectively but Max can't be required to ruck more than two thirds of the time. It's my greatest concern after the NAB matches

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

It's a huge issue because if Gawn goes down our next ruckman in line is Max King with Spencer injured.

[Whispering_Jack 30,753]

10 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

It's a huge issue because if Gawn goes down our next ruckman in line is Max King with Spencer injured.

... and Max King is really being groomed for a forward/ruckman role 

[dazzledavey36 55,390]

12 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

It's a huge issue because if Gawn goes down our next ruckman in line is Max King with Spencer injured.

Id put Mitch King first as he is more of a natural ruckman then Max.

But as you said its a massive issue considering Spencer is out injured. I love our recruitment for what they have achieved, but they missed the boat last year in getting a mature age ruckman as insurance. Dawsone Simpson and Dan Currie are two i wanted personally.

[Lucifers Hero 40,375]

8 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Id put Mitch King first as he is more of a natural ruckman then Max.

But as you said its a massive issue considering Spencer is out injured. I love our recruitment for what they have achieved, but they missed the boat last year in getting a mature age ruckman as insurance. Dawsone Simpson and Dan Currie are two i wanted personally.

Problem is dd which of our recruits would you give up for the back-up/insurance ruckman?  (Please don't say Melksham as we have not seen him play yet and from what I can see he is needed in the backline as that is our other weakness atmo.)

We just have to accept the club's recruiting priorities and accept that this is a development/growth year for the team.  Hopefully, Max stays fit and his game time is managed and that Spencer comes good fairly soon.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

Big Max does it all for me!

[praha 11,240]

Pederson should be doing more in the ruck. You also have Garland and Oscar M down back who could take it when it's down there. He seems to be all over the ground.

[monoccular 17,596]

Does anyone have any info re Spencer's injury?

Did either of the Kings do anything worthwhile at Casey Saturday?

I agree big Max needs careful management.

[Ricky P 757]

Part of the purpose of pre-season games is to get blokes match fit. A lot of blokes looked stuffed in the second half. Ideally Maxy plays as close to the full game as possible each week as he is so far ahead of all our other options. I think flogging him yesterday is getting him ready for playing 90% game time in the real season. 

Also a bit surprised that Frost isn't spending time in the ruck.  

[stuie 7,374]

Speccies on his back don't help either, yes I'm looking at you Tomas!

 

[Farmer 889]

1 hour ago, Ricky P said:

Part of the purpose of pre-season games is to get blokes match fit. A lot of blokes looked stuffed in the second half. Ideally Maxy plays as close to the full game as possible each week as he is so far ahead of all our other options. I think flogging him yesterday is getting him ready for playing 90% game time in the real season. 

Also a bit surprised that Frost isn't spending time in the ruck.  

Since posting this item a friend has suggested they may be reluctant to play Frost in the ruck because of last year's foot injury

[P-man 13,366]

It's a good point. I was surprised to see that we ended up losing the hit out count fairly convincingly. Gawn is a beast but I hope to see Pedomyh chipping in a bit more when the real stuff starts. Maxy is too important to run him into the ground.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

To those who go to training do Frost or even Pederson do work with Stafford or the other rucks?

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Gawny was being double tagged yesterday after half time.

Thats why early on 3rd quarter they got all the clearances centre and stoppages

He didn't stand a hope in hell. Especially when we didn't give him a help out.

We also had a 6 defence setup they had a 7 defence and had the spare defender tearing in free from the bounce up to clear the ball.

That is how they got the first goal at the start of each quarter. We didn't wake up to it until the last quarter

[junk 342]

We should never underestimate the player in waiting or co. ruckman for/to Max Gawn, people do surprise. Many supporters out there assumed Harmes was a dud, yet he proved the opposite. What will be will be. The Dees are going to be better than 2015. 

[poita 3,902]

We're in deep poo if Max goes down. Why he was crashing packs in the dying minutes of a practice match is beyond me. Ditto for Hogan. Both should have been in cotton wool long before then.

Spencer seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth, Frost is giving nothing in any position at present, taking Pedersen away from the forward line is robbing Peter to pay Paul, and the Kings are babies.

We desperately needed another experienced ruckman last year, instead of having two developing ruckmen on the list. Really poor list management.

[Akum 2,660]

21 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

Gawny was being double tagged yesterday after half time.

Thats why early on 3rd quarter they got all the clearances centre and stoppages

He didn't stand a hope in hell. Especially when we didn't give him a help out.

We also had a 6 defence setup they had a 7 defence and had the spare defender tearing in free from the bounce up to clear the ball.

That is how they got the first goal at the start of each quarter. We didn't wake up to it until the last quarter

You're absolutely right.

After half time, at ball-ups & throw-ins, they would often have one ruckman with back to the umpire holding Gawn's arms with another coming over the top.

And at centre bounces his opponent times his jump into his space just before the ball comes down. 

We can expect a lot of sides to use these tactics this year to nullify Gawn. His opponent will spend the whole of the week with their ruck coach practising these two plays.

And we should fully expect them to get away with it too - he won't get any help from the umpires. If the umpires can't see it (because of where they're positioned) they can't pay it.

We need to anticipate it and work out a counter to it.

[Farmer 889]

8 hours ago, poita said:

We're in deep poo if Max goes down. Why he was crashing packs in the dying minutes of a practice match is beyond me. Ditto for Hogan. Both should have been in cotton wool long before then.

Spencer seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth, Frost is giving nothing in any position at present, taking Pedersen away from the forward line is robbing Peter to pay Paul, and the Kings are babies.

We desperately needed another experienced ruckman last year, instead of having two developing ruckmen on the list. Really poor list management.

Spencer has a foot injury. The dreaded plantar fasciitis. Is running but no more.

i thought frost played well but don't understand why he's doing no ruck work

[DeeSpencer 26,090]

7 hours ago, Akum said:

You're absolutely right.

After half time, at ball-ups & throw-ins, they would often have one ruckman with back to the umpire holding Gawn's arms with another coming over the top.

And at centre bounces his opponent times his jump into his space just before the ball comes down. 

We can expect a lot of sides to use these tactics this year to nullify Gawn. His opponent will spend the whole of the week with their ruck coach practising these two plays.

And we should fully expect them to get away with it too - he won't get any help from the umpires. If the umpires can't see it (because of where they're positioned) they can't pay it.

We need to anticipate it and work out a counter to it.

He's not tall for his position but the bulk of Lynden Dunn will come in handy to counter his opponent coming third man up. McDonald is tall and strong enough as well.

We are in a bit more trouble if teams have a 195cm + midfielder, we'll have to keep Watts/Vince/Tyson/Lumumba etc whoever is available at the stoppage on the lookout. Or we start to rove the 3rd man ups, which when done well can really stuff with another side as they are sending an extra jumper and still losing.

[BAMF 4,395]

On 13/03/2016 at 4:44 PM, ENYAW said:

We should never underestimate the player in waiting or co. ruckman for/to Max Gawn, people do surprise. Many supporters out there assumed Harmes was a dud, yet he proved the opposite. What will be will be. The Dees are going to be better than 2015. 

I can't remember anyone  calling Harmes a dud.

[Little Goffy 14,661]

Against St Kilda Gawn played against 2 full-time rucks, something that is very unlikely to happen outside the preseason. One of them had less than 50% game time, possibly all in the second half, so it makes sense he looked weary. He still finished the game with more impact than his two opponents combined.

I think Gawn is capable of being ruck all day, but I do agree that it is not the ideal situation, especially over the whole season. Better rests and chop-outs are needed, whoever it is that steps in.

Big opportunity for the "M.Kings" to find a valuable role as a forward.ruck, if they can surprise people this season and develop at ludicrous speed.

 

 

[DeeSpencer 26,090]

38 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

Against St Kilda Gawn played against 2 full-time rucks, something that is very unlikely to happen outside the preseason. One of them had less than 50% game time, possibly all in the second half, so it makes sense he looked weary. He still finished the game with more impact than his two opponents combined.

I think Gawn is capable of being ruck all day, but I do agree that it is not the ideal situation, especially over the whole season. Better rests and chop-outs are needed, whoever it is that steps in.

Big opportunity for the "M.Kings" to find a valuable role as a forward.ruck, if they can surprise people this season and develop at ludicrous speed.

 

 

2 rucks: 
Hawthorn (McEvoy, Ceglar), Freo (Sandi, Griffen/Clarke)

Maybe: 

WC ( NicNat, Lycett/McGovern), Geel (Smith/Stanley, Vardy), Saints (Longer/Hickey/Holmes, Bruce), Carlton (Kreuzer, Phillips/Casboult), GWS (Mumford, Lobb), Ess (Leuenberger, Jamar/Grimley/Michael), Coll (Grundy, Witts/Moore/Gault)

No: 
Rich (Maric, Vickery/Griffiths), Gold Coast (Nicholls, Wright/Day), Sydney (Tippett, Sinclair), Dogs (Minson/Campbell, Boyd/Redpath/Roughead), Brisbane (Martin, Walker), Port (Lobbe, Dixon/Westhoff/Trengove), Adel (Jacobs, Jenkins), North (Goldstein, Brown)

Seems a big mix, hard to predict where a lot of the maybe's will go. The main difference between years past is that the 2nd ruck/forward types are getting bigger and are ofter around the 200cm mark. Not all are necessarily better in the ruck than Pedersen but most are and some can play against number 1 rucks. 

It's still very early days for him but it's not ludicrously early for Max King to start showing more consistent form at VFL level and to push his case.

[Little Goffy 14,661]

Love your work, DeeSpencer. Very interesting mix of opponents and combos. Made me go back and take a closer look at Gawn's preseason.

 

Port: Lobbe, with rests from Westhoff, and a couple of others turning up for one or two contests.

Smashed them, was BOG. 42 hitouts, 7 clearances, 15 disposal with 10 contested, and 2 contested marks. 92% game time.

Dogs:Minson and Campbell played just a little over 50% game time each, with Roughead also a bit involved in the ruck.

Decisively won the hitouts, broke even around the ground in general but capped his day with 100% disposal efficiency and 2 goal assists. 85% game time.

Saints: Rucks Hickey and Holmes (a kid who played 50% game time), with Riewoldt(!) also chipping in a little.

Seriously beaten for hitouts, but still managed to get more disposals, marks and tackles than his two opponents combined. 91% game time.

 

Definitely signs of getting tired in that third game. Will be glad for the rest before the season starts.

Looking at DeeSpencer's listings, Gawn will often be overworked and it could be a seriously problem as the season drags on.

But we can take some comfort knowing that he is unlikely to line up on two different opponents who are only out there for 50% game time each! Even a ruck-forward still has to run around and get tired when they aren't at the bounce.

[Trisul 664]

Small correction LG Holmes is 26,  though only in the system since 2014 draft. 

[Lucifers Hero 40,375]

Quite a glowing endorsement of Max by our very own Jeff White: 

"He's mobile around the ground, he reads the play well...More than anything though, White has been impressed with Gawn's tap-work. "But just his hands. That's the key with any ruckman. You can teach them to be smart, you can teach players to run smart, and run to position..."But the thing is actually getting it to you midfielders. He's got really good touch, he reaches the ball at its highest point, and that's what you want.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbourne-ruckman-max-gawn-can-enter-afls-elite-says-jeff-white-20160312-gnh8wc.html#ixzz433eMaQXg

 

I read recently: Fear the Beard!  Other ruckman - be warned!