Roos v Beveridge

[Trisul 664]

Many fans cheered us off after the 94 point West Coast loss. We were leading 50-41 in the first half of that. Then the week after we blitzed GWS with 12 goals in the last quarter. That was a strange couple of weeks

I'd never had a player picture as an avatar before that game. Perhaps it was an emotional release after the first three rounds but the image of Grimes determination in the centre at the start of the fourth, the clubs highest scoring quarter ever, really resonated with me.

[WhyAlwaysMe 237]

Neeld was sacked after Round 11. We were so bad then that we virtually celebrated Richmond beating us by 'only' 34 points as a win.

A couple of poor performances and some are now saying Roos has performed no better than Neeld. GTFO.

of course you are right but the improvement is below what is acceptable, its not just a couple of poor performance either.

last 17 games = 2 wins

3 of those games our total score was below 36pts, 13 of those games we have kicked 10 goals or less.

for all the 17 games we have a average score of 61pts per game, scored over 100pts once.

Surely we should be able to question Roos without being howled down.

[pitmaster 3,561]

Doggies very good against Freo but helped by extraordinary accuracy (14 goals from 18 shots!) and beat Swans, but were whipped by the Hawks (70 points).

Unlike us who copped the trifecta, the Doggies played those three with softer games in between over five weeks, and still managed to lose to the Saints after leading by nine goals!

So they are good and bad like us between and within games, but no doubt they are ahead of us in development. I don't see anyone this week staying with Johanissen for speed for example. He gave them great drive out of defence when they challenged Freo and we are seriously going to miss Kent when Johanissen takes off.

But let's face it, their two years before their current coach was a period of constructive growth whereas ours was all destruction.

Tough week but Hogan and Newton return rested, and hopefully Jetta, maybe Watts. It will be a better looking team on paper at least.

[Lucifers Hero 39,876]

I don't see much point comparing Roos to any other coach.

I don't see much point comparing our team to any other team.

The reality is every team (except GWS and GCS) have played finals in the last 10 years.

Of our own making? Yes.

Every other team/coach has had a some type of foundation to re-build on.

Therefore, Brisbane, WB, Port, St K, Rich, have/will all bounce back faster than we do.

BTW did anyone else hear the interview with Roos about staying at MFC after 2017 in some non-coaching role.

He was very emphatic and adamant that he would not.

So all you Roos bashers will get your wish soon enough. Sigh

Edited May 18, 2015 by Lucifer's Hero

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

I thinks it's now fair to say kids excluded we don't even have a best 22. I would guess we are spending 2-3 million dollars on players that had potential and have delivered nothing. Our only hope is we front loaded their contracts because there's at least 5-6 who are signed until the end of next year who need to be traded or paid out.

[pitmaster 3,561]

Just to push that Bullies and us versus Freo comparison a bit further - we kicked 6.14 compared with the Dog's 14.4 - 20 scoring shots against their 18, which looks much better than the points outcome.

Freo had just two more scoring shots against us (18.10 versus 15.11) than when they played the Dogs.

Inside 50s we were minus 20, the Dogs were minus 17.

Every stat points to the Bullies doing better than us, but by much less than the final points outcomes suggest.

[jnrmac 20,098]

I don't know where people got their sense of entitlement from.

Wow. Aren't we entitled to effort? That's the major point in this thread. Not where players are in their development but how can we after all this time go out and not put in, not do the basics? BASIC FOOTBALL.

The basics take endeavour, desire, effort and intent. Tackling, shepherding, running to space, picking up your man, getting back to the goal line to kill a ball through the goals (this alone has cost us 3 goals in two weeks)

Why don't we have these basics and why don't we have the desire, intent, effort etc. I get we don't hav eth skill of a lot of sides but what I am talking about isn't skill based. Its mental. And we are failing badly.

Thats the only sense of entitlement I have. What are you talking about?

[jnrmac 20,098]

I don't see much point comparing Roos to any other coach.

I don't see much point comparing our team to any other team.

The reality is every team (except GWS and GCS) have played finals in the last 10 years.

Of our own making? Yes.

Every other team/coach has had a some type of foundation to re-build on.

Therefore, Brisbane, WB, Port, St K, Rich, have/will all bounce back faster than we do.

BTW did anyone else hear the interview with Roos about staying at MFC after 2017 in some non-coaching role.

He was very emphatic and adamant that he would not.

So all you Roos bashers will get your wish soon enough. Sigh

This is pathetic. He is not above criticism.

And as for every team making finals in 10 yrs that is a very low benchmark. Suggest you aim a bit higher.

[Pipefitter 2,159]

I gotta admit it burns watching other teams transform under a new coach in just one pre season, where we have the highest paid coach in the league, and 18 months in we are still questioning the minimum requirements of our players, effort, etc.

[deespicable me 1,487]

For me its not working.

Beveridge looks to have an all-in attitude to his coaching already. Clarkson has that as well. They are both small men and they get buried deep within the huddles when it matters most. They care and connect with their players.

Roos came to this club with an exit strategy. It wobbled early doors when no-one wanted to become his assistant then I think he sighed with relief when we locked in Goodwin and he could go back to planning 2017 onwards when he eventually gets his life back with a stash of cash to boot!

Anyone suggesting he will hang round 1 second longer than he is contracted to has got rocks in their heads.

I know I'm having a cheap shot and Roos is a man of integrity but all I'm hoping is when he eventually goes back to his media jobs he will push our barrow a bit because politically ( I've never seen the game more politically driven than it is now) we have very little relevance and no voice in the media to help us.

As for Jack Watts and coaching and game tactics, I thought Roos handled Watts very poorly. I didn't even watch the Hawks game but against the Swans we were so short on tall running players, I don't know why he was in the green vest. Just give the guy a role. He could have played on any number of players, Rowan or Goodes. If he wants to contribute put him on a player and tell him to beat him. Keep it simple. Check the tape on Monday and teach him to beat an opponent. Really missed a coaching opportunity with Jack in the last couple of weeks in my stupid opinion.

Anyway I agree with Jnrmac, all I can think is that everyone at Melbourne has an "exit strategy" except us supporters.

Boo Hoo us!

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Salem Garlett Mcdonald Hogan (leading contested marks in the AFL) Brayshaw (leading the club in tackles) Vandenberg (missed most of the pre season due to shoulder injury)

If it wasn't for injury i would have nearly put Jack Viney in there aswell. His round 1 game was the best game he had ever played for this club.

not the players in discussion

couldn't do it huh

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

Gee I didnt realise we were going so well. So all is ok and we are tracking well .Thats such a relief!

I'd suggest context is a pretty important thing, i was responding to the suggestion we hadn't improved since Roos took over with numbers proving that we had, rather than voicing my opinion on my satisfaction with the level of improvement.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,866]

I'd never had a player picture as an avatar before that game. Perhaps it was an emotional release after the first three rounds but the image of Grimes determination in the centre at the start of the fourth, the clubs highest scoring quarter ever, really resonated with me.

He actually has some size on him in that photo. He looked shocking on the weekend, there's absolutely nothing of him.

[Jaded No More 68,958]

To compare us to the Dogs is unfair

The Dogs were playing finals not long ago.

They have recruited exceptionally well and enjoyed some F/S wins.

Yes they've lost some good key players over the past 2 seasons, but they still have a core group of excellent mature leaders.

We have been through 10 years of turmoil. Our recruiting has been exceptionally poor, we've also lost a heap of talent, made poor coaching choices, had a terrible administration, no leadership from top to bottom and were shot mentally.

The job Roos was presented with is nothing like what Beveridge was presented with. It's like comparing Carlton & GC. Who would you rather coach next year?

Roos wanted to change the culture first and foremost, and that takes a long time to achieve. It is also the most crucial thing we can do, but one of the hardest. It takes someone of extraordinary skill and talent to come into a 150 year old organisation which has been rubbish for decades and try to change the culture and mentality of the place.

Already we are seeing signs of this happening. Yes we are still getting smashed, yes we still lack talent, but we've been able to attract and keep players, and we are building a core group of players who work hard and are driven to succeed.

Roos is loosening the lid on the jar. Goodwin will have a much easier time to get the lid off because of the job Roos has done.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Jaded

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Nathan Jones and Dom Tyson are carrying injuries, or at least have been

I find this excuse very annoying. If they are selected, they are fit. End of story. I don't get why exactly carrying a niggle somehow makes you a shadow of your former self. If the impact is so detrimental then take the time off needed to recover and come back when you can contribute like we know you are capable of. All you are doing by playing them is sapping everybody's confidence. Other clubs back their 'star' players in to play with niggles, because champions like Hodge just get BOG in spite of the niggle. This doesn't happen at Melbourne and it gets excused by too many. Furthermore, if this IS the case and these blokes are injured, WTF have we copped it so badly on the injury front. Inc. Salem, Petracca and Trengove we had NINE players unavailable last week. Now you are suggesting we can only expect half-games from Tyson and Jones. It is infuriating.

I disagree that Jetta was in very good form before his injury. Like Dunn, he was down on the high standard he set himself last year. Like too many others, they are allowed by the supporters to skate by on past achievements. It's not good enough. Be a professional and keep bringing it every single week FFS. Why do we see demonstrations of players' abilities and then have to watch as they fail to reproduce it, it doesn't make any sense. Think about James Frawley - AA in his 3rd year and then what happened? Is Tommy Mac gonna be the same? I will throw Vince in also, 3rd in the B+F last year, wtf has happened to him? Surely the coach has to be accountable for these multiple concurrent form drop-offs.

Pedersen got a game because there were 8 players unavailable in a bottom 4 side. Easily surpassed by a 6 gamer. Surely you are not really suggesting he is some sort of Roos success story.

I think you are being far too generous in the things you are giving Roos credit for, and you are not mentioning the major concern of many others in several other threads - which is that it is a huge worry that the team seems to lack CARE and SPIRIT along with ability to execute the footy basics such as shepherding and manning up. As always they have no temprament to deal with even the slightest pressure. Surely the question gets aimed squarely at Roos on this point.

[daisycutter 29,616]

I said it was true last year but not this year. That is very plainly written.

Try again

and to be more precise it was true for the first half of 2014, and only partially true for second half of 2014

[dazzledavey36 54,951]

I find this excuse very annoying. If they are selected, they are fit. End of story. I don't get why exactly carrying a niggle somehow makes you a shadow of your former self. If the impact is so detrimental then take the time off needed to recover and come back when you can contribute like we know you are capable of. All you are doing by playing them is sapping everybody's confidence. Other clubs back their 'star' players in to play with niggles, because champions like Hodge just get BOG in spite of the niggle. This doesn't happen at Melbourne and it gets excused by too many. Furthermore, if this IS the case and these blokes are injured, WTF have we copped it so badly on the injury front. Inc. Salem, Petracca and Trengove we had NINE players unavailable last week. Now you are suggesting we can only expect half-games from Tyson and Jones. It is infuriating.

I disagree that Jetta was in very good form before his injury. Like Dunn, he was down on the high standard he set himself last year. Like too many others, they are allowed by the supporters to skate by on past achievements. It's not good enough. Be a professional and keep bringing it every single week FFS. Why do we see demonstrations of players' abilities and then have to watch as they fail to reproduce it, it doesn't make any sense. Think about James Frawley - AA in his 3rd year and then what happened? Is Tommy Mac gonna be the same? I will throw Vince in also, 3rd in the B+F last year, wtf has happened to him? Surely the coach has to be accountable for these multiple concurrent form drop-offs.

Pedersen got a game because there were 8 players unavailable in a bottom 4 side. Easily surpassed by a 6 gamer. Surely you are not really suggesting he is some sort of Roos success story.

I think you are being far too generous in the things you are giving Roos credit for, and you are not mentioning the major concern of many others in several other threads - which is that it is a huge worry that the team seems to lack CARE and SPIRIT along with ability to execute the footy basics such as shepherding and manning up. As always they have no temprament to deal with even the slightest pressure. Surely the question gets aimed squarely at Roos on this point.

So if Nathan Jones and Dom Tyson shouldn't be playing then who are you going to replace them with? Aidan Riley and Matt Jones.. yeah riveting stuff..

We have no choice but to let them solider on because we have no depth to replace them with. The bye couldn't come quick enough for these two.

Take these two blokes out and i can bet every dollar the last 3 week would have been 100 point losses in all of them.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

While I definitely wish it was going faster, I don't think Roos should be judged 7 games into his 2nd year here.

We knew he had more to do than just recruit a couple of blokes. It isn't like we had the castle and were looking for a coaching master mind.

Roos' job is to change the culture. And he is doing that. Slowly. It will take time. Expect big changes again at the end of the year so that hopefully we have a) 30 afl standard players to pick from and b) hardly any players left scarred from the last 7 years.

Honestly i don't expect us to compete well regularly until 2017 (When i think Roos will have created a new list). Until then we will be inconsistent.

Changing the culture will take 3 years. After that it is about performance.

Neeldy was fired at about this point wasn't he? Hiring and firing coaches won't achieve much.

[jnrmac 20,098]

To compare us to the Dogs is unfair

The Dogs were playing finals not long ago.

They have recruited exceptionally well and enjoyed some F/S wins.

Yes they've lost some good key players over the past 2 seasons, but they still have a core group of excellent mature leaders.

You are kidding if you think that. They lost their Coach, Captain and CEO and the club was in turmoil. Everyone had them pencilled in for botton 2. Its a great comparison.

Stop making excuses. What stands out for them is they have desire, attitude and passion.

Its shameful that we don't have it.

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

I find this excuse very annoying. If they are selected, they are fit. End of story. I don't get why exactly carrying a niggle somehow makes you a shadow of your former self. If the impact is so detrimental then take the time off needed to recover and come back when you can contribute like we know you are capable of. All you are doing by playing them is sapping everybody's confidence. Other clubs back their 'star' players in to play with niggles, because champions like Hodge just get BOG in spite of the niggle. This doesn't happen at Melbourne and it gets excused by too many. Furthermore, if this IS the case and these blokes are injured, WTF have we copped it so badly on the injury front. Inc. Salem, Petracca and Trengove we had NINE players unavailable last week. Now you are suggesting we can only expect half-games from Tyson and Jones. It is infuriating.

I disagree that Jetta was in very good form before his injury. Like Dunn, he was down on the high standard he set himself last year. Like too many others, they are allowed by the supporters to skate by on past achievements. It's not good enough. Be a professional and keep bringing it every single week FFS. Why do we see demonstrations of players' abilities and then have to watch as they fail to reproduce it, it doesn't make any sense. Think about James Frawley - AA in his 3rd year and then what happened? Is Tommy Mac gonna be the same? I will throw Vince in also, 3rd in the B+F last year, wtf has happened to him? Surely the coach has to be accountable for these multiple concurrent form drop-offs.

Pedersen got a game because there were 8 players unavailable in a bottom 4 side. Easily surpassed by a 6 gamer. Surely you are not really suggesting he is some sort of Roos success story.

I think you are being far too generous in the things you are giving Roos credit for, and you are not mentioning the major concern of many others in several other threads - which is that it is a huge worry that the team seems to lack CARE and SPIRIT along with ability to execute the footy basics such as shepherding and manning up. As always they have no temprament to deal with even the slightest pressure. Surely the question gets aimed squarely at Roos on this point.

I agree, that if they're passed fit there is no excuse, but i think the niggles are the reason, i know Doms Knee has been the issue and i am guessing it's having an effect on his ability to cover the ground quite as well as he otherwise might

Jones skills concern me, they have not been an issue on a consistent basis but even he is making basic errors now.

strongly dispute the idea they're playing half games, down on form, yes! but they could easily recapture that, Tyson is fumbling balls he'd take cleanly last year, the other thing to remember is that our last 5 weeks have been pouring rain the first two, and then the top 3 teams since, so pressure and weather factors can make guys not look as clean.

but i think both are suffering with form rather than going backwards as players, i think the expectation have been raised internally now as they should have been and alot of our guys may not have the belief that they're good enough to be any better than what they have been.

Vince i think is on Roos, to me he looks to have gone too far down the path of being defensive and worrying about his opponent and lost a little of his attacking flair

Betts is in increadible form at the moment and only a couple of weeks ago Jetta held him goalless so his best is extremely good, but as you say may be a little inconsistent, but considering where he has come from, i'd certainly take that.

I think pedersons success has come from finally having a role in the side to nail down and a consistent message, which Roos has bought to the table.

i find your last point interesting, they can't execute footy basics, they can't chase, tackle shepard, man up show effort or care, you don't get to the AFL without being able to do those things, i'd suggest this is not something you can point at Paul Roos and say this is 100% his fault, it's Roos job to get them up mentally, but i think alot of the issues rest with the player inability to give consistent effort, there is nothing Roos could say or do if the players don't have the right attitude.

i still believe there is plenty of scars on this group, and our list is just simply a mix of really young and our older blokes are not the sort of players capable of carrying 10 plus under 50 gamers week in week out, which is why the effort is so incosnsitent

[Bang Bang Bang 5,826]

of course you are right but the improvement is below what is acceptable, its not just a couple of poor performance either.

last 17 games = 2 wins

3 of those games our total score was below 36pts, 13 of those games we have kicked 10 goals or less.

for all the 17 games we have a average score of 61pts per game, scored over 100pts once.

Surely we should be able to question Roos without being howled down.

I think that's very selective. The last 10 games of last year were extremely disappointing but what about the 12 before that? Why have they been left out of the argument? If we are assessing Roos' performance as a coach then we need to look at the whole picture and not just pick and choose our statistics.

If we can win another six games (take your pick out of Carlton, Brisbane, St.Kilda x 2, Bulldogs x 2, Collngwood and Essendon as realistic chances) then we've won 8 for the year, which would double last year's effort, and quadruple 2013. I have no issue with that level of improvement.

Of course, none of these remaining games will be givens but I'm confident if the injuries can slow down a bit that we can achieve it. If we don't get close to it then Roos' performance WILL come under scrutiny. I'm on record as saying he's had an ordinary month (especially with selections) but I'm very glad he's our coach.

[jackaub 1,402]

I think that's very selective. The last 10 games of last year were extremely disappointing but what about the 12 before that? Why have they been left out of the argument? If we are assessing Roos' performance as a coach then we need to look at the whole picture and not just pick and choose our statistics.

If we can win another six games (take your pick out of Carlton, Brisbane, St.Kilda x 2, Bulldogs x 2, Collngwood and Essendon as realistic chances) then we've won 8 for the year, which would double last year's effort, and quadruple 2013. I have no issue with that level of improvement.

Of course, none of these remaining games will be givens but I'm confident if the injuries can slow down a bit that we can achieve it. If we don't get close to it then Roos' performance WILL come under scrutiny. I'm on record as saying he's had an ordinary month (especially with selections) but I'm very glad he's our coach.

We play like we have been playing who will we beat? Maybe Saints once Maybe Essendon we wont beat Bull dogs and we wont beat Colloingwood on current form

[Deespicable 2,726]

This is a good thread but it's also one that would have been laughed down by us three weeks ago after our win against Richmond.

I think you will find Roosy has done some major thinking in the past few days and we will see him tinker with a few things now.

Ultimately though, we as yet haven't found a couple of midfield stars to win clearances on a regular basis and Viney's absence and passion around the contest has hurt more than a few of us realised. Dom's step back from being a reliable extractor has also hurt big time.

We do at least now have a defensive star and a bright light up forward - but you need to be solid across the ground with 21 all playing a role.

The Dogs got lucky and now have two stars in Bon and Stringer to build their side around, but let's see how they go next year with Boyd and Murphy well into their 30s.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

but i think both are suffering with form rather than going backwards as players, i think the expectation have been raised internally now as they should have been and alot of our guys may not have the belief that they're good enough to be any better than what they have been.

This is my problem though - I know we are focusing on these two, but what about just about everyone else - we haven't even talked about cross, jamar, dawes, watts, grimes and howe to add to the 6 we have already discussed. For a number of others this discussion is 'not applicable' because of injury (Kent, Viney etc) or the fact that they are brand new and we can't compare them to last year (Garlett, Lumumba, Brayshaw etc). All the VFLNQRs have not moved from their low base. What you are left with is about 2 names that you can say have definitively improved on last year (Tommy Mac and Salem, possibly Garland because his 2014 was so awful)... seriously, can you name any others? That is almost our whole senior core that is currently at a lower level of performance than last year. My question is WHY is this happening? Maybe Jones and Tyson are excused for carrrying injuries but what about the rest? I can't accept that it is some coincidence that is going to turn itself around sooner or later. If have felt this way since about Round 3 and have been waiting patiently for these blokes to find form but it isn't happening. It makes me worry that something is wrong.

I really hope you are right on your last paragraph - but as I said after the Hawks game,we have a major, major problem with our Peter Pan syndrome. Grimes and Watts are the latest to play a number of seasons and then fade into oblivion. Assumedly they will both be replaced by 18 year olds next year and the average games played stat remains the same. It has barely moved since Bailey came in and started replacing seniors with kids and it is hugely related to losing games of footy (as you note). Making it worse is the fact our average is inflated by these experienced imports (Dawes, Vince, Lumumba, Cross) who at the moment are not delivering what their equivalent 'games played' counterparts are at other clubs.

Cheers

[poita 3,902]

Every time I read threads such as these which are filled with people wearing rose-coloured glasses trying to defend the indefensible, I wonder if they were the same people talking up Neeld before he was moved on.

I'm not sure why some act as though Roos and his methods cannot be questioned. It is 10 years since he won his premiership - the game has changed several times over since then, and Roos was found out at Sydney in his last few years.

Should we be asking these questions now, or should we wait until we lose 10 games in a row, and another bunch of free agents walk out? What happens if Hogan decides he is sick of playing in a losing side and walks when his contract ends? Is that the time to ask questions, or do you think it might be a tad on the late side?