It's the players, not the coach(es)!

[bing181 9,328]

He attacked the club and the players raising past ghosts like "tanking" and "culture" and opening the floodgates for negative thinking throughout the club.

Sorry WJ, but if you sat through yesterday and think that it was Roos who let in the "negative thinking" ...

Above the neck, the players are shot to pieces - and they were well before Roos arrived.

I don't have an issue with what he said, partly because it's true, partly because I don't know what was actually said to the players or how it was addressed, and partly because I read it as expressing concern, not criticism.

Performances like yesterday don't come about from a couple of interviews, a few harsh words, or any single event. They come from years and years of being at a "loser" club. For the older players, it's all they know, and for the younger players, it's all they've seen.

There is hope, but it's going to take longer than a season. Though I think yesterday has shown everyone at the club just how far behind we really are. Sure, we can turn over players, but we've been turning over players for 7-8 years, with the same result.

[Redleg 41,399]

Bailey.

Neeld.

Roos.

Interim coaches.

A bevvy of coaches, yet the same old Melbourne keeps popping up. There is a common trend here, and here is a hint; it aint the coaches.

Except for one thing, highlighted by 2 passages of play.

Garland gets the ball 40 metres out and instead of kicking for goal immediately turned back away from goal and handballed 20 metres back and eventually we turned it over. That has to do with Coaching instructions or just a complete failure of belief.

The second contrasting passage was Riley kicking across goal where 3 Dees are out marked by Kelly a first year player who runs forward and kicks a lovely goal from the 50 metre line.

Why does a first year player back himself from further out than a 10 year player closer in?

[Roger Mellie 4,094]

Except for one thing, highlighted by 2 passages of play.

Garland gets the ball 40 metres out and instead of kicking for goal immediately turned back away from goal and handballed 20 metres back and eventually we turned it over. That has to do with Coaching instructions or just a complete failure of belief.

The second contrasting passage was Riley kicking across goal where 3 Dees are out marked by Kelly a first year player who runs forward and kicks a lovely goal from the 50 metre line.

Why does a first year player back himself from further out than a 10 year player closer in?

Third passage - Tom McDonald is chasing the ball out toward the wing with his opponent. He's leading in the chase for the ball but instead of going for the footy he drops back behind his opponent and uses his forearm to try and defend/push him off balance.

[CBDees 3,167]

I'll bite. What do all coaches have in common? They've all coached Jack Watts. He's the problem, LOL.

But in all seriousness, yes it is the playing group (or members within that have kept on falling through the delist cracks) and their pathetic will power to play it moment by moment, contest by contest.

I'll be glad when Frawley goes, because he is a massive part of that weak mentality, so too is Watts but he seems to be Paul Roos' pet. And Dawes needs to find his early season form over the pre-season, or he is just taking up space.

You didn't seem to notice that Jack scored 1/3 of our goals yesterday despite not being named as a forward. Not only that but he did it wheeling from the middle of a pack under pressure. There are more problems in our team than using Watts as the whipping boy!

[gsmith12 491]

Riley's effort was not only a dumb option but a poorly executed pass - schoolboy stuff.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Frawley's performance yesterday absolutely proved my point, and the point that others share in that he absolutely is part of the problem.

[censored] me I'm baffled at how clueless some supporters are.

He is in our [censored] leadership group and showed absolutely nothing yesterday. Sure Dawes had similar impact but at least he chases, harasses and follows up with repeated efforts. He demands more of himself and others.

Garland is in the same boat as Frawley and whilst Dunn has had a great year, I still see old and conditioned habits in the way he plays.

These three guys plus Grimes are meant to be the ones carrying the club forward.

How can they all be so inconsistent in their performances year after year.

Why has Jones bucked the trend? How has he survived the virus and managed to better himself year after year and become such a consistently good player and performer?

I don't know what to think about any of it.

It's as if we need to completely rid the list of any players who have been on the list for 5 + years. With the exception of Jones.

And then bring in older experienced and consistent performers to come and show our younger guys how to train, behave, play, think, talk etc. Players like Cross, Vince and hopefully Malceski etc.

There's honestly a virus and it's got to go before it affects the next group coming through.

Edited August 17, 2014 by stevethemanjordan

[beelzebub 23,382]

Those things should not have been the agenda at that particular time. What was wrong with the coach saying, "look, I'll take the blame. We've spent a lot of time this year emphasising one aspect of our game. We now need to work on other areas to get ourselves up to the standard we require." That's how I saw things but obviously, I was wrong.

The message the coach gave us was, "not my fault at all. They're terrible. Blame someone else".

Im certainly not calling for Roos head, far from it if anyone can extract us from this rubbish I think he might just be the man ( and helpers ) . But I keep seeing a bit of them and us about his stance. Now may well stem from the idea that many in the list simply wont be there in 2 years time so hes not buying into "them" or it might be he hasnt really taken us on 100% either.

Roos himself now has to find another level and stop fn blaming others is the first step.

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Every player from now on should have a performance clause in their contract where they play like that rubbish they no get paid!

[poita 3,902]

My two bob's worth is that if there's one thing we've learned in our recent history it has to be that the people at the head of a club need to stand up and be accountable.

In terms of football matters, that means the coach. We all have our theories about the ills of this club and there's no doubt a ring of truth to most of them but in my view, the current situation we're faced with after making some promising progress early is that in concentrating on making our team stronger defensively, we've put such little emphasis on the attacking side of our game that we've completely lost the ability to score.

This was clear a fortnight ago when we were clearly the better team for more than three quarters against Brisbane but our inability to convert kept the Lions in the game to the point where they overcame us by going all out attack while we defended to try to save a game that was there for the winning.

What did the coach do after the game?

He attacked the club and the players raising past ghosts like "tanking" and "culture" and opening the floodgates for negative thinking throughout the club. The media got into the game as well and soon everyone was talking about Daniher, Bailey, Neeld, Schwab, McLardy our poor recruiting etc etc ad infinitum.

Those things should not have been the agenda at that particular time. What was wrong with the coach saying, "look, I'll take the blame. We've spent a lot of time this year emphasising one aspect of our game. We now need to work on other areas to get ourselves up to the standard we require." That's how I saw things but obviously, I was wrong.

The message the coach gave us was, "not my fault at all. They're terrible. Blame someone else".

Whilst all that may be true, it had the same ring of denial that we've criticised James Hird for over the Essendon scandals and the result was predictable.

Totally agree. Roos has been bitterly disappointing in the second half of the season, on and off the field. When the coach says repeatedly he doesn't see these results coming and blames everyone under the sun other than himself, you wonder exactly where his head is at.

[beelzebub 23,382]

1500000 reasons to sleep soundly though Zzzzzzz

[beelzebub 23,382]

I will say this. If by own admission Roos says its a 3 to 5 year project...well Paul..you got the ticker mate. Cos if you haven't. ...

[praha 11,240]

What this club needs to do is something many fans are unwilling to admit: completely change over the list and get rid of anyone from the Daniher, Bailey and Neeld years. Yes, that includes Jones, Watts, Frawley, Garland etc.

These guys are good players, sometimes average players, in a diabolically bad team. I am unconvinced Jones would walk into a top 8 side. I have been underwhelmed by him as captain.

We need to build around Tyson, Viney, Salem, Toumpas, Hogan, and get in experience from finals sides that can replace the likes of Watts and Jones.

ATM, we seem to forget that the team's leaders have some of the worst win:loss records of ALL TIME, and expecting them to have the urgency to will the team to win is pointless. Frawley was terrible. Watts doesn't care. Dunn has given up. Jones win the hardball but what's the point if, as a leader, you're not empowering others to do the same?

The club has made a lot of list changes over the years, but it hasn't made the tough ones. During the Bailey years it replaced experienced winners with finals experience with young kids that would eventually go on to become, for lack of better word: losers.

Jones, Frawley, Dunn have failed the club in leading the newcomers to victories. They shouldn't be moved on over the next 1-3 pre-seasons.

And those saying Roos has an influence: of course he does in performances like this. But thisbteam was losing like this BEFORE the truth was being told.

During the Bailey years, the playing group hated how the CEO treated them. Then Neeld was too harsh. Now Roos says the playing group needs to grow up and get over the past, and it's his fault? Give me a break! The losers in the playing group need to be moved on.

If that means another spoon next year, then so be it: we're no better witj them.

Edited August 17, 2014 by praha

[Jara 1,153]

My take, for what it's worth, on Roos

The good: always been impressed by the fact that the Swans players gave the impression that they'd follow him to hell and back, and there were some pretty inspirational types in there. I presume that means he's got strong leadership qualities

The bad: he's too defensive (all that sideways stuff, slowing down, etc) . I know our forward line's been crueled this year, and I gather the mantra is that great sides are built upon strong, rebounding defences. But why can't you develop an attacking capability at the same time? I don't get it. Aren't they of equal importance?

I went along yesterday. Had quite a nice day actually. On my own - kids no longer interested, cant drag em along. After twenty minutes I gave up on the game. Decided not to surrender to despair. Had a little book of Japanese Buddhist poetry in my bag. Sat there and read that, glancing up from time to time, just to make sure that the train wreck was continuing. Yep, it was. Back to Miyazawa.

Don't feel great today though. Worried that the team will disappear, and I'll be bereft.

Big picture: I feel we've been screwed. Trouble is, I can't work out who by. Maybe by the AFL, maybe by big business, maybe by the expansion teams, maybe by ourselves. Maybe it's a class thing; must be what it's like being a Bulldogs supporter. You know the toffs will toss you a bone from time to time, but you also know you're never going to win a flag.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Maybe it's just another case of tanking; eh Caro?

As with most on here, yesterday broke my heart. Not all that long ago, there was a topic on here which, understandably, forecast that we had 2 winnable games left. Well, we've lost them both.

We debate the affect of '186' on the club (the players really), and throw in Dean Bailey's name as part of the problem - at least some do. Again, I won't divulge my sources, but the malaise that led to the culmination which saw the '186' debacle was never DB's fault, but rather falls squarely on the shoulders of those who lurked in the shadows of the back room, who saw their positions within the MFC as far greater than their tenures should or could have been. One in particular, thought his name would be etched in the famous history of the MFC for all the right reasons. Nothing further from the truth. The way DB was summarily 'executed' has had an affect on this playing group which will never be measured in real terms. It was for this very reason, that despite however honourable Mark Neeld's intentions may have been, he was simply the wrong man for the job at the time. We forget the advances that DB made and it was clear that while still lacking in the skill department, the players respected and played for him Paul Roos himself observed, while still coach of the Swans, just how impressive we were and may become under DB, after flogging the Swans by 73 points at the 'G in 2010. How far we have fallen since then.

No-one can even guess the influence that the legacy of DB has had on this group and the affects of his bungled dismissal and ultimate passing - RIP Dean.

The reality is, however disgruntled we may feel after such an insipid and inept display yesterday, against a fledging team, we cannot slash and burn the playing list. There is simply not the available playing stocks out there, to replenish what we might jettison, in one off season.

While, by no means, do I think the current playing list can take giant steps forward and I do accept that there are gaping holes on our list, talent wise, the problems which are endemic at the MFC go way beyond the football department and have existed for at least 10 years, in the modern era. I remain confident that Paul Roos is the right man to mould, shape and influence any MFC playing list to finally recognise what 'team' actually means. Of more concern is whether the rot inside the place is beyond redemption, even for a person of the undoubted talents of Peter Jackson.

While we thresh out our passions on here, it is a patent fact that footy these days is a business. As passionate as I am, I understand the reality that in today's business world, you cannot float a perennial basket case forever. That is our real challenge. A challenge which involves replacing the very fabric of what we now call the MFC. If we don't, some other 'business' will steal away what loyal 'customers' we have remaining and attract what could have been our future 'customers'.

As always, I live in hope that the MFC will rise above this and finally triumph.

Edited August 18, 2014 by iv'a worn smith

[Whispering_Jack 30,573]

Sorry WJ, but if you sat through yesterday and think that it was Roos who let in the "negative thinking" ...

Above the neck, the players are shot to pieces - and they were well before Roos arrived.

I don't have an issue with what he said, partly because it's true, partly because I don't know what was actually said to the players or how it was addressed, and partly because I read it as expressing concern, not criticism.

Performances like yesterday don't come about from a couple of interviews, a few harsh words, or any single event. They come from years and years of being at a "loser" club. For the older players, it's all they know, and for the younger players, it's all they've seen.

There is hope, but it's going to take longer than a season. Though I think yesterday has shown everyone at the club just how far behind we really are. Sure, we can turn over players, but we've been turning over players for 7-8 years, with the same result.

No need to be sorry Bing. I'm not calling for the coach's head or anything like that but I believe he didn't think things out properly after the Brisbane game. Of all times, that was one for positive reinforcement rather than negativity - especially if he believed the team to be mentally fragile as a result of past experiences.

[old dee 23,870]

No need to be sorry Bing. I'm not calling for the coach's head or anything like that but I believe he didn't think things out properly after the Brisbane game. Of all times, that was one for positive reinforcement rather than negativity - especially if he believed the team to be mentally fragile as a result of past experiences.

The players are not the only ones who are mentally fragile WJ.

I am.

I have zero confidence that the MFC should be part of modern day AFL football.

Honestly we have been a rabble now for five of the last six years on the field and until a year ago off the field.

Do we deserve to be in the AFL at the top level.

IMO No.

It is now as embarrassing in 2014 as it was in 2012 and 3.

God helps us next week in WA or against North the week after.

If you get Beaten by GWS with effectively 19 players by 10 goals what the hell will the score line be next week.

187?

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

Except for one thing, highlighted by 2 passages of play.

Garland gets the ball 40 metres out and instead of kicking for goal immediately turned back away from goal and handballed 20 metres back and eventually we turned it over. That has to do with Coaching instructions or just a complete failure of belief.

The second contrasting passage was Riley kicking across goal where 3 Dees are out marked by Kelly a first year player who runs forward and kicks a lovely goal from the 50 metre line.

Why does a first year player back himself from further out than a 10 year player closer in?

Garland was right on the boundary surrounded by opponents and he elected to pass to an open teammate instead of once again making a pointless blind bomb forward. Given that pointless long bombs into the forward line have been a blight upon our game for years I have no issue with this play at all.

As for your second point, Riley kicked a pass directly to Kelly rather than to any of the Melbourne players in the area. He couldn't have hit him up better if he tried. How you can blame any of the players who had just worked hard to get away from any GWS opponents to give him an option is beyond me. They all did exactly the right thing. Riley was the one unable to execute a basic skill under no pressure.

You didn't seem to notice that Jack scored 1/3 of our goals yesterday despite not being named as a forward. Not only that but he did it wheeling from the middle of a pack under pressure. There are more problems in our team than using Watts as the whipping boy!

We all noticed that, but we also noticed his insipid attempt at marking that led to him fighting out of a pack. He had the perfect sit, all he had to do was jump into his opponent to take the mark, but instead he made a straight vertical jump and tried to pluck the ball over the top of the taller man while avoiding body contact. Contrast this with Howe, who will always elect to make contact with his man and usually pulls in the mark. Once again it's a basic error and something that Watts should be doing automatically.

[P-man 13,366]

I am now 90% in favour of trading Watts at the end of the season. He has talent but his effort is close to non-existent. He jogs, he points, he falls over, he makes lunges that could almost be interpreted as attempted tackles, and every 30 minutes he hits a nice pass. He is a passenger.

If we can somehow manage a late first rounder, we simply must make the move.

I doubt he's really all that happy here anymore. How could he be? Best for both parties I think.

Edited August 18, 2014 by P-man

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I actually think in the cold light of day it isn't the end of the world this loss.

The loss means we are able to make a couple moves at year end to help us short term as well as topping up on talent and cut some more dead wood.

As much as I would love a w and god knows the Dees need some, and we've been down the draft picks path over and over - I still believe in Roosy

Without going over the top with emotion and wo is me stuff - I think the majority of players on the list can't meet the expectations to play Roosy game plan week in week out. I am pretty confident it is a simple as that. If we had better skills we'd score more (turnovers are appauling) and with more two way running the team stays competitive (see the start of the year).

Our boys simply can't back it up for a whole year

Roos requires 18 blokes to put on pressure all over the ground to be effective. With no superstars and a lack of senior core it seems to be pretty simple for teams to get on top of us (at the moment) as not everyone is pulling their weight. We simply lack the experience and fitness

I know this final 8 weeks has been tough and the light has gotten dimmer but I still don't think it's all doom and gloom. Stick with the plan and stick with Roosy, the rest will work itself out

[beelzebub 23,382]

Im a 100% in favour (trading Watts )

Edited August 18, 2014 by beelzebub

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I am now 90% in favour of trading Watts at the end of the season. He has talent but his effort is close to non-existent. He jogs, he points, he falls over, he makes lunges that could almost be interpreted as attempted tackles, and every 30 minutes he hits a nice pass. He is a passenger.

If we can somehow manage a late first rounder, we simply must make the move.

I doubt he's really all that happy here anymore. How could he be? Best for both parties I think.

I'd definitely shop him around

Problem is opposition teams would see what we see and probably won't pay over the top for him. But sell if the price is right.

I think he'll be at the club in 2015 though.... He's good but he's no star. He requires others to get him the ball

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

I actually think in the cold light of day it isn't the end of the world this loss.

The loss means we are able to make a couple moves at year end to help us short term as well as topping up on talent and cut some more dead wood.

As much as I would love a w and god knows the Dees need some, and we've been down the draft picks path over and over - I still believe in Roosy

Without going over the top with emotion and wo is me stuff - I think the majority of players on the list can't meet the expectations to play Roosy game plan week in week out. I am pretty confident it is a simple as that. If we had better skills we'd score more (turnovers are appauling) and with more two way running the team stays competitive (see the start of the year).

Our boys simply can't back it up for a whole year

Roos requires 18 blokes to put on pressure all over the ground to be effective. With no superstars and a lack of senior core it seems to be pretty simple for teams to get on top of us (at the moment) as not everyone is pulling their weight. We simply lack the experience and fitness

I know this final 8 weeks has been tough and the light has gotten dimmer but I still don't think it's all doom and gloom. Stick with the plan and stick with Roosy, the rest will work itself out

In essence, I tend to agree with you. But what is worrying is that yesterday, we were beaten pointless by a young and inexperienced team - albeit laden with talent - that had its bench decimated by injuries, which obviously severely restricted its rotations, and entered the game with several of what it would consider to be its top tier players, not even available for selection.

Our problems go far deeper than just the list we have.

Edited August 18, 2014 by iv'a worn smith

[beelzebub 23,382]

I'd definitely shop him around

Problem is opposition teams would see what we see and probably won't pay over the top for him. But sell if the price is right.

I think he'll be at the club in 2015 though.... He's good but he's no star. He requires others to get him the ball

yeah but Coaches and FD's can be funny buggers . Sometimes they might see somethig that they think worth pursuing. Like us theyll look around for square pegs in round holes and look to get players who arent faring too well but have upside. Its possibly debatable as to whether JW really has one but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Id definitely allow enquiries

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

No need to be sorry Bing. I'm not calling for the coach's head or anything like that but I believe he didn't think things out properly after the Brisbane game. Of all times, that was one for positive reinforcement rather than negativity - especially if he believed the team to be mentally fragile as a result of past experiences.

Maybe hes fed up like the rest of us with terrible errors being committed over and over again (generally by the same ppl)

I hear what you're saying though - because I agree with you're points.

It is genuinely frustrating - Take fore example Kent - a real talented kid. Yesterday he couldn't get one F50 entry close to hitting a MFC player. So much talent so much waste. Anyway my point is we need to presist with blokes like Kent but god damn son, kick it to one of our blokes

Hows can be just as bad. It really is mind boggling the errors they make game after game -no wonder their void of confidence. They clearly go in to their shells as well. you could see it against GWS.

Roosy might not have always said the right thing publicly but hes right about it going to take more time

[on the outer 19]

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way...."

Dickens' words are fairly descriptive of how this year has panned out for many of the supporters, and I'd say also for most of the players.

But you know what, the sun did rise on Monday morning and as long as the club survives there's always another day and another match to play.

Go the Dees !

Edited August 18, 2014 by on the outer