In defence of Collingwood supporters...

[michael collins 49]

I never thought I'd stick up for Collingwood supporters, and it may never happen again, but I will here.

I don't think I'm racist - maybe we all are to some extent, I haven't thought about it much. I have thought about what's fair. Calling someone a monkey, a baboon, a chimp, is a common childish insult. Our Prime Minister is frequently referred to as a "ranga" (orang-utan). This might be rude, but it is not necessarily racist. If it is said to imply that indigenous people are more ape-like than others, it is racist. But you'd need a lawyer to work that out.

Not the AFL. If Adam Goodes feelings are hurt, what more proof of racism do we need? I can't understand why the kid wasn't locked up immediately. Why bother with a trial or a fair hearing? Two hours of questioning by police is more than criminals are subjected to for some major crimes. Generally our society looks after the welfare of children, and I think this approach should be required of indigenous players as well, even if they are famous.

As for the bloke in the crowd, I heard a news report saying police were looking for him. Are Victoria Police now agents of Andrew D and the AFL? Are they arbiters of social policy? What was his crime? If I understood correctly, because his words seemed a bit slurred, he was addressing the umpire(s) and accusing them of racial discrimination. Was that his crime? or was it the suggestion that Adam Goodes was black? Neither seems remotely criminal. He suggested that because it was the indigenous round, the umpires were giving a disproportionate share of the free kicks to an indigenous player. I may or may not have agreed, but I don't see that its racist to raise the question. Sounds like they've tracked him down though, and he will be given counselling. I'm not sure what for, but its something no Collingwood supporter should be without.

Its just as well Collingwood supporters can give and take a bit, or the AFL would be sending Victoria Police to find me.

Edited May 28, 2013 by michael collins

[rpfc 28,390]

Look, the girl probably didn't know what the connotation of 'ape' is. But it is an epithet and her ignorance shouldn't save her.

No person has to put up with racism, even if it is perceived, the person should know why what they said was so hurtful.

Goodes handled it all well and so did Eddie.

We move on.

[[email protected] 101]

I never thought I'd stick up for Collingwood supporters, and it may never happen again, but I will here.

I don't think I'm racist - maybe we all are to some extent, I haven't thought about it much. I have thought about what's fair. Calling someone a monkey, a baboon, a chimp, is a common childish insult. Our Prime Minister is frequently referred to as a "ranga" (orang-utan). This might be rude, but it is not necessarily racist. If it is said to imply that indigenous people are more ape-like than others, it is racist. But you'd need a lawyer to work that out.

Not the AFL. If Adam Goodes feelings are hurt, what more proof of racism do we need? I can't understand why the kid wasn't locked up immediately. Why bother with a trial or a fair hearing? Two hours of questioning by police is more than criminals are subjected to for some major crimes. Generally our society looks after the welfare of children, and I think this approach should be required of indigenous players as well, even if they are famous.

As for the bloke in the crowd, I heard a news report saying police were looking for him. Are Victoria Police now agents of Andrew D and the AFL? Are they arbiters of social policy? What was his crime? If I understood correctly, because his words seemed a bit slurred, he was addressing the umpire(s) and accusing them of racial discrimination. Was that his crime? or was it the suggestion that Adam Goodes was black? Neither seems remotely criminal. He suggested that because it was the indigenous round, the umpires were giving a disproportionate share of the free kicks to an indigenous player. I may or may not have agreed, but I don't see that its racist to raise the question. Sounds like they've tracked him down though, and he will be given counselling. I'm not sure what for, but its something no Collingwood supporter should be without.

Its just as well Collingwood supporters can give and take a bit, or the AFL would be sending Victoria Police to find me.

I used to umpire Junior Football and I was called an ape more than once.. If the girl had called Goodes a "Black ape" then some sort of action may have been justified but the kid was subjected to questioning, removal from the game and much more apparent abuse on social media. She probably now needs more "counselling and assistance from child welfare personnel than Adam does and it will possibly have a much worse effect on her life. I think it would take more than being called an ape to prompt Adam to leave the field if an opposing player used the term.. if not , then perhaps he has given opposing teams a very simple plan to get him to leave the ground, considering how damaging he can be on the field ?? I will NEVER condone racism in any form but in this particular instance I ask "did that 13 year old Collingwood supporter make her comment with racism in mind?" Not so sure ..

[DeeSpencer 25,683]

Case 1: 13 year old girl calls a black man with a hairy beard an ape

Goodes was in the heat of the moment. He felt he was wronged so pointed the girl out probably not knowing exactly how old she was. The next day he as much admitted it wasn't meant as a racist slur and he over reacted. The AFL seemed to handle it ok.

The two groups who didn't were:
1. The media - they broadcast this girl out to be some horrible villian

2. The MCG Security (obviously these guys aren't the sharpest tools in the shed) and the Police if they felt the need to interrogate this girl for 2 hours.

Case closed we move on.

Case 2: Crazy yelling fan:

I'm not so sold on this guys innocence. Yes it probably wasn't racists to suggest favouritism to Indigenous players due to it being Indigenous round but it's not very clever either. It's comments like this that stir up racism and make others (like 13 year old girls) feel they can take it a step further. He doesn't deserve the police chasing him but he should smarten up as well. I'd suggest his prescribed punishment of some cultural education is a good idea. He doesn't seem to have much concept of the reasoning behind an indigenous round.

[nutbean 8,838]

Bottom line is that there is enough to yell about to upset players like " get a kick, get a hard ball, dropped your head again, chase you pea heart" without having to get offensive ( let alone racial abuse) - I equated what that girl said to calling someone fat or ugly and I also dont think she understood the connotation but I dont think any abuse of that nature is necessary.

As an aside - I went to a Melbourne/Carlton game in the early 90's after returning from 3 years o/s and every time Dorotitch went near the ball they called him a "[censored]" which i thought was harsh until my mate explained to me that he was actually caught ummm...well.... anyway that epiteth was well earned.

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

I never thought I'd stick up for Collingwood supporters, and it may never happen again, but I will here.

I don't think I'm racist - maybe we all are to some extent, I haven't thought about it much. I have thought about what's fair. Calling someone a monkey, a baboon, a chimp, is a common childish insult. Our Prime Minister is frequently referred to as a "ranga" (orang-utan). This might be rude, but it is not necessarily racist. If it is said to imply that indigenous people are more ape-like than others, it is racist. But you'd need a lawyer to work that out.

No, you'd just need a bit of knowledge about the history of the use of such terms with racist connotations, or a bit of experience of it (as Goodes pointed out he'd had in the past).

I'd expect a bit more understanding of the oppressive uses of language from someone calling himself Michael Collins, but there you go.

[Chook 15,013]

Just FYI, humans belong to the Great Ape family.

[Spirit of '87 333]

Goodes just needs to lose the beard, and the ape remarks will stop. Nothing to do with racism - never hear Rioli, Jetta etc referred to as apes - it's that beard of his.

[Soidee 1,496]

The fact that people are unsure what Ape means in this context says our society needs more education.

However, many just come up with excuses as to the meaning of Ape in this context to hide or deny their own racist attitudes.

This country has a long long way to go.

Until we admit Australia has a racist underbelly, things will not improve.

[biggestred 5,079]

Bulldust.

calling someone an ape because of the colour of their skin is extremely racist because it infers that because of the colour of their skin a person is not human or less of a human being.

disgusting behaviour.

the letters in the herald sun today saying that goodes should harden up totally miss this fact.

as an aside, whole soccer clubs in Europe are sanctioned and play games behind closed doors because their supporters make monkey noises when black players get the ball.

Edited May 28, 2013 by biggestred

[daisycutter 29,613]

Bobby "The Chimp" Skilton and the "Three Wise Monkeys" on World of Sport (Dyer, Davis, Richards)

An unfortunate choice of words from an ignorant 13 year old. Unintentional racism? Probably.

Hardly deserved the front page of the Sun complete with minor's picture and full name

[PJ_12345 1,098]

I don't think anyone has the right to tell Goodes to harden up unless they have been discriminated by the colour of their skin.

I haven't and can't imagine how it would feel.

[CHAMP 347]

Bobby "The Chimp" Skilton and the "Three Wise Monkeys" on World of Sport (Dyer, Davis, Richards)

An unfortunate choice of words from an ignorant 13 year old. Unintentional racism? Probably.

Hardly deserved the front page of the Sun complete with minor's picture and full name

Minor correction (for accuracy):

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/gallery-e6frg6n6-1226596596568?page=14

[Pates 9,660]

A few issues at play here:

At first when I heard about this and what was said I thought it was an overreaction to the word "ape". Although I would never say it myself, I considered it to be low grade in the scheme of things. That was until I switched on to triple J and I heard a discussion about it and an indigenous man called in, he basically outlined what it meant to him and that it is universally recognized as offensive to indigenous Australians. Perhaps that is where it should be said that any racial slur, no matter how the perceived "strength" is simply not on.

The second issue to this is how it was handled by the MCG staff. Having seen how old the girl was, their first question should've been, "are you here with an adult guardian" and they should've have come with her at the same time. I did not hear about her getting spoken to for two hours, if that's the case then that's a terrible mismanagement of the situation.

The other is the media. Every news outlet, paper, reporter etc, hang your head in shame. Even the ones who took the soft approach of talking about education blah blah blah..... You all made it a bigger issue than it needed to and have made it a harder process for this girl. She made a mistake, it was a stupid one, but as Dermott Brereton has said she will now always be known as that girl who called Adam Goodes an ape. She has been publicly humiliated, slagged, and her photo circulated (something should never have been done given her age).

For me Goodes has handled it well, I don't mind him pointing someone out in the crowd, and I think the comments he made the next day were very good. Eddie getting on his high horse saying "racism won't be tolerated, membership canceled etc" was too early and poorly delivered. Next time investigate first, then talk about consequences.

[Mr Steve 3,820]

Didn't we have this whole discussion with Andrew Symonds and the Ape/Monkey thing.

[DeeSpencer 25,683]

Bulldust.

calling someone an ape because of the colour of their skin is extremely racist because it infers that because of the colour of their skin a person is not human or less of a human being.

disgusting behaviour.

the letters in the herald sun today saying that goodes should harden up totally miss this fact.

as an aside, whole soccer clubs in Europe are sanctioned and play games behind closed doors because their supporters make monkey noises when black players get the ball.

Yes but the whole point is I don't think (and from what Goodes and the girl have said subsequently) the girl said it as a racist thing. More of a you've got a hairy beard and are a big imposing bloke with broad shoulders.

I've never heard of an Indigenous Australian be ridiculed with ape before. It's completely different to soccer players/Andrew Symonds monkey noises.

But to blame Goodes is stupid. He heard something he thought was racist and did what he could do. The blame lies with media making this into a bigger issue than it needed to be. Even now arguing against Goodes is making the issue drag on.

[michael collins 49]

No, you'd just need a bit of knowledge about the history of the use of such terms with racist connotations, or a bit of experience of it (as Goodes pointed out he'd had in the past).

I'd expect a bit more understanding of the oppressive uses of language from someone calling himself Michael Collins, but there you go.

I only found out about the term being particularly offensive to indigenous people recently. I just assumed it was ordinary rudeness. I was trying to explain that it is the intent of the user which makes the term racist and demeaning, and in some circumstances criminal. But the criminality depends on the intent - it is quite a complex situation.

And Michael Collins believed in fair treatment for everyone, not just a particular group

[rpfc 28,390]

I only found out about the term being particularly offensive to indigenous people recently. I just assumed it was ordinary rudeness. I was trying to explain that it is the intent of the user which makes the term racist and demeaning, and in some circumstances criminal. But the criminality depends on the intent - it is quite a complex situation.

And Michael Collins believed in fair treatment for everyone, not just a particular group

We all know what you are saying but you are being way too cute.

She was trying to be rude. She used a racial epithet. She was castigated.

Intention is irrelevant to the one being prejudiced against.

And that's who we care about, yeah? The person who is aggrieved. Not the person yelling and being rude at someone.

[DemonWA 3,934]

.

She was trying to be rude. She used a racial epithet. She was castigated.

.

And that's who we care about, yeah? The person who is aggrieved. Not the person yelling and being rude at someone.

I agree. Its a sad state of affairs when sledging the oposition is basically part of the Australian way , but you generally associate that sort of thing with boozed up blokes and ferals. Its sad that a 13 year old girl would feel obliged to yell abuse at a footy player, racist or otherwise

As for the comment itself and the media coverage I thought that based on the live raction from Goodes and the heightened sensitivity of being the opening match of indigenous round, the broadcasters did an ok job. Once Goodes pointed out the offender and he then was so visibly upset, they had option but to give it the level of coverage they did, regardless of the age of the girl.

As a seperate discussion point, I believe the comment was racist, no doubt. The really sad thing from my perspective and for Australia is that i would almost go so far as to say that racist comments that are far worse, are probably made in the crowd at almost every AFL match

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

I only found out about the term being particularly offensive to indigenous people recently. I just assumed it was ordinary rudeness. I was trying to explain that it is the intent of the user which makes the term racist and demeaning, and in some circumstances criminal. But the criminality depends on the intent - it is quite a complex situation.

And Michael Collins believed in fair treatment for everyone, not just a particular group

I was referring to Collins' familiarity with the long history of oppression in Ireland as well as his own experience of it.

And if you're suggesting in the reference to a particular group that Aborigines are somehow getting special treatment in having Goodes' objections to racist language aired, then I think you're probably further from the spirit of Michael Collins than you first appeared.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Dr John Dee

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

When I used to teach Koorie kids, one particularly upset young man ( about 13 or 14 ) came into my room yelling about how he hated " all white c...s". He then looked at me and said "except you Mr. .......".

The moral to that story is that kids say - stupid things, thoughless things, things they don't understand. Yes they can be dangerous and hurtful things but most times young teenagers haven't a clue about the implications of the comments they make.

They are silly immature kids who need responsible adults to educate them.

[Chook 15,013]

The question is "Can anyone be called an ape?" If the answer is "no", then I don't think it's a racist remark.

I know I've called George Bush a monkey because I legitimately thought he looked like a chimpanzee (which ironically aren't monkeys). But I guess that's not racist because we're both white.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Chook

[DemonFrog 1,354]

You appear to have made your first real big mistake! NEVER stick up for Collingwood!

After all look what they done to the MFC when they gave us MARK NEELD!

It will take decades to recover.

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

The question is "Can anyone be called an ape?" If the answer is "no", then I don't think it's a racist remark.

I know I've called George Bush a monkey because I legitimately thought he looked like a chimpanzee (which ironically aren't monkeys). But I guess that's not racist because we're both white.

You probably meant 'If the answer is "yes" ...' but the statement would be just as ridiculous.

There are different ways - with different histories - of using words like ape and monkey and chimpanzee etc. When they're used about black people, the meaning is clear enough and it's got nothing to do with whether anyone does or doesn't look like an ape or monkey or chimpanzee.

By your logic (if that's what it is) it's perfectly ok for soccer crowds in Europe to make monkey noises at black players because anyone can have monkey noises made at them.

For someone who was claiming elsewhere a higher knowledge/understanding of Aboriginal experience, you're pretty bloody naive.

[McQueen 17,864]

NIce one, Ed. You pelican.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-05-29/mcguires-king-kong-gaffe