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Why are we so suprised?


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I happen to be one of those who is and has been reasonably happy with the direction in which the club has been travelling over the past few years. That is not to say I'm pleased with the way the team has been playing since it won those games in the first week of the NAB Cup back in February. To the contrary, it's been a matter for despair watching the way the have played in the regular season to date and, in many ways, last Thursday's debacle was the inevitable accident waiting to happen.

Such good musings I'm glad you posted them twice!

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WJ most of what you say may well be correct

However I have a real problem with our game plan.

It is either poor or we do not have the talent to implement it.

At what point this season are we allowed to voice our distress?

Following blindly is what led many fine Germans into WW2.

I will continue to support the MFC but I am not going to follow blindly

when something is plainly not working.

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Snoopy says we have a third world midfield but I disagree. It looks third world when it's playing without confidence but if you add Tom Scully and Jordie McKenzie when they return from injury and if Jack Grimes is ever tried there, then the midfield gets much better. Add development and weight onto Jordan Gysberts and two impressive rookies from Casey (Evans and Nicholson) and, in the medium term, that midfield suddenly becomes much more potent. And then the opportunity might arise in the trades to add some icing to the cake.

This post is missing some Jack Viney.

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This post is missing some Jack Viney.

Did I miss something? Last I looked I didn't notice a Jack Viney on our list. He is not the effing messiah come to save his people, he is a pimply faced kid who isn't on our list.

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Did I miss something? Last I looked I didn't notice a Jack Viney on our list. He is not the effing messiah come to save his people, he is a pimply faced kid who isn't on our list.

Sarcasm people. Sarcasm!!!! :lol:

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Sarcasm people. Sarcasm!!!! :lol:

That's ok then :) I am so sick and tired of people crapping on about this kid like he debuts next week. I apologise for my tone

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This post is missing some Jack Viney.

Yeah, um, I was also going to mention my six year old grandson who is going to be the club's next great centre half forward when Jack Watts retires but I'm trying to keep him under wraps and away from the gaze of opposition recruiting scouts.

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Yeah, um, I was also going to mention my six year old grandson who is going to be the club's next great centre half forward when Jack Watts retires but I'm trying to keep him under wraps and away from the gaze of opposition recruiting scouts.

Whatever you do WJ don't mention his name. There are people round here so desperately clutching at straws, they'll be stalking his primary school to see if he kicks both feet at playtime

FWIW I agree with the premise of your (doubled up) post. The club was warning from pre season that this year may be one of going backwards to go forward. Unfortunately it's fallen on deaf ears, especially those who's analysis goes no deeper than 2010 = 8 x w therefore 2011 = 10 x w.

Doesn't make Thursday any more palatable but Thursday should not be viewed in isolation

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WJ most of what you say may well be correct

However I have a real problem with our game plan.

It is either poor or we do not have the talent to implement it.

At what point this season are we allowed to voice our distress?

Following blindly is what led many fine Germans into WW2.

I will continue to support the MFC but I am not going to follow blindly

when something is plainly not working.

Bear with me because there's a point to be made here and I reckon I know a fair bit about Germans and WW2 because I was born in a displaced persons camp in Germany a few years after the war ended.

Many fine and many not so fine Germans might have followed blindly in the 30s but they were never the intended victims of their Nazi masters. The victims were Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Homosexuals, people with black skins and anyone who opposed them and they numbered in the millions.

My point is that I'm not trying to embarrass you but we should try to get our facts right first.

The last four days have seen a festival of expressions of distress, criticism of the game plan and baying for the coach's blood. I haven't read anywhere where people are blindly following anything, let alone the "game plan". I certainly don't - all I'm expressing is my opinion on what might be done to get the team back on track. I reckon they won't listen to me anyway but I'm not and never will be a blind follower.

Now to some more recent history. Almost two years ago Collingwood was sitting in 11th place with 3 wins 5 defeats and a percentage of 92.9. Their two most recent performances were an 88 point thrashing from St. Kilda (1 goal to half time) and an even more humiliating defeat by 51 points at the hands of Carlton. Many of their fans wanted Malthouse's blood and were trashing his game plan. Bring in Nathan Buckley. Guess what?

They won their next seven games, made the top 4 and got to a preliminary final and the following year won a flag. Sack Malthouse after round 8, 2009 and do you think they would be where they are now?

I'm not suggesting we'll emulate Collingwood and repeat their efforts but let's all calm down a bit.

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Bear with me because there's a point to be made here and I reckon I know a fair bit about Germans and WW2 because I was born in a displaced persons camp in Germany a few years after the war ended.

Many fine and many not so fine Germans might have followed blindly in the 30s but they were never the intended victims of their Nazi masters. The victims were Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Homosexuals, people with black skins and anyone who opposed them and they numbered in the millions.

My point is that I'm not trying to embarrass you but we should try to get our facts right first. 

The last four days have seen a festival of expressions of distress, criticism of the game plan and baying for the coach's blood. I haven't read anywhere where people are blindly following anything, let alone the "game plan". I certainly don't - all I'm expressing is my opinion on what might be done to get the team back on track. I reckon they won't listen to me anyway but I'm not and never will be a blind follower.

Now to some more recent history. Almost two years ago Collingwood was sitting in 11th place with 3 wins 5 defeats and a percentage of 92.9. Their two most recent performances were an 88 point thrashing from St. Kilda (1 goal to half time) and an even more humiliating defeat by 51 points at the hands of Carlton. Many of their fans wanted Malthouse's blood and were trashing his game plan. Bring in Nathan Buckley. Guess what?

They won their next seven games, made the top 4 and got to a preliminary final and the following year won a flag. Sack Malthouse after round 8, 2009 and do you think they would be where they are now?

I'm not suggesting we'll emulate Collingwood and repeat their efforts but let's all calm down a bit. 

DONE I will not say a word about our woeful performances until after the North game.

Based on last year and results to date we should at the very worse be able to match both teams.

Lets see the position on Sunday 15th May 2011.

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Whatever you do WJ don't mention his name. There are people round here so desperately clutching at straws, they'll be stalking his primary school to see if he kicks both feet at playtime

Yeah , but we really need to know if he's an aggressive type and can he take a pack splitting mark ?

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We do have a third world midfield but it has the makings of a great midfield. But the midfield that has taken the field this season so far is young, inexperienced and without any real class.

The impact of our poor midfield cannot be underestimated and makes judgement of gameplans and Bailey extraordinarily difficult.

Sage comments Snoop. I am not sure why all the accolades over C graders like Moloney and Jones.

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Sage comments Snoop. I am not sure why all the accolades over C graders like Moloney and Jones.

For the simple reason that these players excite the minds and hearts of folk who have lifted the bar oooh lets say an inch off the ground.

In his own way Moloney has played a very good version of the Moloney game, that this game in itself is severely limited in thinking or spread of options seems to escape the many who gush and fawn over him. I dont for one minute question his endeavor , heart, nor dedication to the jumper but hes the sort of player an oppo will love to play on because hes so SO predicatable.. Jones also is playing a game above previous levels....hes lifted from C to C+.

This isnt a go at them...it might sound like it but like the old adge ...what looks like, sounds like and walks like so it must apply to sportsmen etc...they are whatt hey are. Much of the syruppy admiration stems not so much ( I sense) from the actual demonstrated abilities but for the desire to have someone, anyone, in a Melbourne jumper doing something approaching adequate to abate that niggling reality that we struggle.

Trengove is a class above these guys already but he cant do it alone. He will need the likes of a Scully...or possibly a Viney ( in years to come ) to form a real midfield. Gysberts when he can toughen up and maintain consitency will provide a major assett to the midfield and Tappy is ably gifted to usurp Moloney as soon as next season. Players wil fear this bloke...make no mistake. Currently Moloney is giving most of what he has.

Sadly thats limited. A number of players will displace Jones next year.

Id trade them personally...yeah...an early call I know... but its that kinda year....again.

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Sage comments Snoop. I am not sure why all the accolades over C graders like Moloney and Jones.

Moloney's shown this year he's better than Jones.

Jones is a C grader. Moloney's at least a B.

Point is valid though, our midfield is poor, and we are banking a lot on the return of two kids in Scully and McKenzie, one of whom might not be here next year. We need a big lift from those who are already in the side.

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Whilst it is important to have a healthy debate we ALL need to look at our current position and ask ourselves -What can we do about it.

Well I suggest, we or as many as possible attend training next Saturday morning- re DemonsHQ Melbourne FC

The next @DemonsHQ open training session is at Gosch's Paddock - Saturday 7th May - 10:00am

By doing this we show that we care and show the players that whilst we support the club we will not tolerate the last week's insipid display. We should also show solidarity by doing the above. Get there and show we care.

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The point of the comment though is that because it's so poor it makes it almost impossible to judge our gameplan or coach.

I've heard Malthouse, Matthews and Roos all say this year that a coach is only as good as the players he has on the field. Those with unshakeable views on Bailey can't see the woods for the trees.

As good as an All-Australian full back, All-Australian ruckman and some of the most exciting players around on their day? We've got a damn good list in my opinion. Yes, they need development, but hey, let's go...

Brad Green (2010 B&F, club legend)

Mark Jamar (2010 AA, become superb)

James Frawley (2010 AA) - Didn't have a preseason due to injury

Aaron Davey (2009 B&F, various awards)

Brent Moloney - traded from Geelong at a time where they just had too many mids in a group with names such as Ablett, Ling, Bartel, Chapman

Colin Sylvia - #3 draft pick, has become one of the club's best

Nathan Jones - steadily becoming a club stalwart.

I would say that's a pretty good experienced group to be honest - better than anything Richmond or Port have. Brisbane's is better, but that's because it's got Simon Black and Luke Power. Nevertheless, for where we are that is a solid core of players to use and put the kids in and around. Yet of those, Green, Frawley, Davey, Sylvia and to an extent Jones are not performing at all. Jamar and Moloney have been immense, but it's a team sport and there are 20 other guys which need to do something. This suggests a team-wide motivation problem, which is much more likely to be a coaching issue rather than 20-odd individual issues.

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As good as an All-Australian full back, All-Australian ruckman and some of the most exciting players around on their day? We've got a damn good list in my opinion. Yes, they need development, but hey, let's go...

Brad Green (2010 B&F, club legend)..playing like .....

Mark Jamar (2010 AA, become superb).. relatively unsupported,....taps to ??

James Frawley (2010 AA) - Didn't have a preseason due to injury AA_ hangover ??

Aaron Davey (2009 B&F, various awards)... dare I ?? LazyDavey !!

Brent Moloney - traded from Geelong at a time where they just had too many mids in a group with names such as Ablett, Ling, Bartel, Chapman...not up there..sorry , just isnt

Colin Sylvia - #3 draft pick, has become one of the club's best seems to have lost his zing

Nathan Jones - steadily becoming a club stalwart. borderline inefective for all his efforts

I would say that's a pretty good experienced group to be honest - better than anything Richmond or Port have. Brisbane's is better, but that's because it's got Simon Black and Luke Power. Nevertheless, for where we are that is a solid core of players to use and put the kids in and around. Yet of those, Green, Frawley, Davey, Sylvia and to an extent Jones are not performing at all. Jamar and Moloney have been immense, but it's a team sport and there are 20 other guys which need to do something. This suggests a team-wide motivation problem, which is much more likely to be a coaching issue rather than 20-odd individual issues.

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Those with unshakeable views on Bailey can't see the woods for the trees.

This includes you.

What do you like about his coaching ?

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As good as an All-Australian full back, All-Australian ruckman and some of the most exciting players around on their day? We've got a damn good list in my opinion. Yes, they need development, but hey, let's go...

Brad Green (2010 B&F, club legend)

Mark Jamar (2010 AA, become superb)

James Frawley (2010 AA) - Didn't have a preseason due to injury

Aaron Davey (2009 B&F, various awards)

Brent Moloney - traded from Geelong at a time where they just had too many mids in a group with names such as Ablett, Ling, Bartel, Chapman

Colin Sylvia - #3 draft pick, has become one of the club's best

Nathan Jones - steadily becoming a club stalwart.

I would say that's a pretty good experienced group to be honest - better than anything Richmond or Port have.

No it is not. And look who you are comparing them against!

Melbourne fans fall far too in love NQR battlers and seductive wingmen.

Our leaders are no such things and our best players are 22 and younger.

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...

Wonderful post, thanks for re-posting it.

It seems like people realise that it'll take 2-3 years for the players to get the stage we all want them to, but don't realise how long 2-3 years is.

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It gets difficult when you've got to repeat yourself so often. I've said so many times that with the players we've got, the lack of senior A class players and a third world midfield you can't judge his coaching. But I can say we performed above expectation last year with some terrific performances against good teams. I like that and think that that indicates his gameplan has merit. But I'm going over old ground.

This year to date is no surprise to me. I said this in the Tim Harrington thread in march:

Posted 15 March 2011 - 09:31 AM

I don't think they are inconsequential facts but one of the core requirements of a premiership team.

Like many I'm total frustrated at the time it is taking to rebuild but average age and games played are fundamental to winning flags. We have some way to go.

But I agree with you, these facts don't tell the true story. The other key characteristics to winning Premierships is having genuine elite players and having them on the park for the year.

We have the third lowest games total on our list - 1843 compared to Geelong 3490. We are above Suns and Richmond.

We are the second youngest list in the comp - 22.32 compared to Geelong 24.24. We are above Suns.

We have no genuine elite players on our list and frustratingly our potentially "genuine elite" midfield is under 21 - McKenzie 20, (Blease 20), Trengove 19, Scully 19, Gysberts 19 and of course Viney.

This year is all about seeing the potential elite players show they are going to be elite, because if they don't become elite this tilt at a flag will fail. It's why the club has put so much into development (the addition of Viney this year). It's why keeping Scully (amongst others) is so important.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we win fewer games than we did last year - the bald facts suggest we should be bottom four. But of course the talent on the list is unmeasurable by simple stats and the difference between where the stats say we should finish and where we do finish is a good measure of talent.

The vast majority here are going to be very disappointed as the season unfolds. I think our preseason form is indicative.

The results we've had year to date aren't hard to understand. I'm surprised (well, no I'm not) at all the dismay as if it's just incomprehensible that this could happen.

FFS, if you've got the second youngest list, the third most inexperienced list, a list with no A grade midfielders and few if any elite players what do you expect?

And that it happened at Subi, now FM, there's a surprise.

All true.

But what does any of it have to do with effort? Anyone who thinks the effort shown against West Coast, or in the second half agaisnt Hawthorn, was good enough, is delusional. I don't care how young or inexperienced we are, we should be putting in 100% effort 100% of the time, and that's not happening. That is cause for concern and disappointment.

Whether Bailey's game plan is going to win us a premiership is also, somewhat, distinct from our players being young and inexperienced. Of course that will impact on our ability to actually execute it, but I'm becoming less and less able to believe that it is good enough to beat sides like Collingwood who employ the forward press.

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Guest Artie Bucco

Wonderful post, thanks for re-posting it.

It seems like people realise that it'll take 2-3 years for the players to get the stage we all want them to, but don't realise how long 2-3 years is.

Yes! So true.

Thanks heavens I found this thread.

The majority of others I've been wading through on this forum are shockers.

It's very comforting to find some people that talk sense.

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Bear with me because there's a point to be made here and I reckon I know a fair bit about Germans and WW2 because I was born in a displaced persons camp in Germany a few years after the war ended.

Many fine and many not so fine Germans might have followed blindly in the 30s but they were never the intended victims of their Nazi masters. The victims were Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Homosexuals, people with black skins and anyone who opposed them and they numbered in the millions.

My point is that I'm not trying to embarrass you but we should try to get our facts right first. 

The last four days have seen a festival of expressions of distress, criticism of the game plan and baying for the coach's blood. I haven't read anywhere where people are blindly following anything, let alone the "game plan". I certainly don't - all I'm expressing is my opinion on what might be done to get the team back on track. I reckon they won't listen to me anyway but I'm not and never will be a blind follower.

Now to some more recent history. Almost two years ago Collingwood was sitting in 11th place with 3 wins 5 defeats and a percentage of 92.9. Their two most recent performances were an 88 point thrashing from St. Kilda (1 goal to half time) and an even more humiliating defeat by 51 points at the hands of Carlton. Many of their fans wanted Malthouse's blood and were trashing his game plan. Bring in Nathan Buckley. Guess what?

They won their next seven games, made the top 4 and got to a preliminary final and the following year won a flag. Sack Malthouse after round 8, 2009 and do you think they would be where they are now?

I'm not suggesting we'll emulate Collingwood and repeat their efforts but let's all calm down a bit. 

I remember the criticisms of Collingwood's game plan during that period, in particular the pundits were being critical of their pursuit of attack on the wings rather than through the corridor. It's hard to back Bailey after efforts like Thursday but I don't think the game plan or the coach is necessarily the problem as others have illustrated (snoopy)

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It gets difficult when you've got to repeat yourself so often. I've said so many times that with the players we've got, the lack of senior A class players and a third world midfield you can't judge his coaching. But I can say we performed above expectation last year with some terrific performances against good teams. I like that and think that that indicates his gameplan has merit. But I'm going over old ground.

This year to date is no surprise to me. I said this in the Tim Harrington thread in march:

Posted 15 March 2011 - 09:31 AM

I don't think they are inconsequential facts but one of the core requirements of a premiership team.

Like many I'm total frustrated at the time it is taking to rebuild but average age and games played are fundamental to winning flags. We have some way to go.

But I agree with you, these facts don't tell the true story. The other key characteristics to winning Premierships is having genuine elite players and having them on the park for the year.

We have the third lowest games total on our list - 1843 compared to Geelong 3490. We are above Suns and Richmond.

We are the second youngest list in the comp - 22.32 compared to Geelong 24.24. We are above Suns.

We have no genuine elite players on our list and frustratingly our potentially "genuine elite" midfield is under 21 - McKenzie 20, (Blease 20), Trengove 19, Scully 19, Gysberts 19 and of course Viney.

This year is all about seeing the potential elite players show they are going to be elite, because if they don't become elite this tilt at a flag will fail. It's why the club has put so much into development (the addition of Viney this year). It's why keeping Scully (amongst others) is so important.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we win fewer games than we did last year - the bald facts suggest we should be bottom four. But of course the talent on the list is unmeasurable by simple stats and the difference between where the stats say we should finish and where we do finish is a good measure of talent.

The vast majority here are going to be very disappointed as the season unfolds. I think our preseason form is indicative.

The results we've had year to date aren't hard to understand. I'm surprised (well, no I'm not) at all the dismay as if it's just incomprehensible that this could happen.

FFS, if you've got the second youngest list, the third most inexperienced list, a list with no A grade midfielders and few if any elite players what do you expect?

And that it happened at Subi, now FM, there's a surprise.

Thanks for all that..A fine read, but effort, application & heart are not mentioned here which are also very important indicators & that is what the majority of supporters are very concerned about as well.

Where is all the good tackles from last year, they weren't all laid by Jordie Mckenzie were they!!!!

Nobody expected a flag this year, but it's fair to expect an Red Hot Go.

I am not disputing your thread at all, it is compelling, But is it the full story or only half?

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