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Yes @A F and @binman, I’ve listed to the Selwyn podcast. I absolutely accept that clubs tailor training programs throughout the year. Of course we do. What I am challenging is the strong assumption that you two (and others) have drawn that says that we have engaged in a heavy training block over the last few weeks, so much so that it goes a long way to explaining certain losses (eg Geelong). Last year I did the same thing. I asked if there was evidence that we had engaged in a heavy training block to help explain mid-year losses. I don’t believe there was any (other than general research and supposition). I said I wanted to see us bounce back with strong running later in the year, which didn’t happen (but admittedly may have been due to other factors such as injuries). In the podcast I hear Selwyn talk about the bye and the weeks around it. In the same sentence when he talks about getting “an increased exposure in aerobic capacity development” during the round 12-15 window, he also talks about the importance of giving the players a break because they will need it. That to me tells me we approach things on a more micro level, week to week perhaps, but I don’t accept that interview leads to the inevitable conclusion that we engaged in a heavy training block across those weeks. When I say there’s no evidence, I mean that, as far as I know, I haven’t seen a coach or a player reference it in an interview, or a Demonland track watcher notice it in a training session. So whilst we may have added loads in particular weeks as the season unfolds, I don’t believe there is enough evidence to sustain the argument that we must necessarily have done a heavy loading block across a few weeks, which necessarily must be impacting current performance. There are other reasons why we might have seen a decrease in performance through this period. Generally all footballers slow down in the colder months as the footy and ground gets heavier. Clubs continue to work on each other’s gameplans and strategies and learn more about each other. Injuries might hit. And whilst we’re seeing most clubs off the bye struggle, the funny thing about that argument is that we didn’t really have a bye, with our 10 day break the same as the break prior to KB. We had no sign of loading hitting our players late on KB. And we know subsequently our players took a break, so if anything the post-KB 10 day break was lighter on the track than the pre-KB break. So for the tl;dr version - I accept we structure our training carefully and at times during the year we train harder with a view to maximising our fitness, but I don’t currently believe there’s enough evidence to conclude definitively that we’ve been training so hard of late that it must necessarily be the biggest factor to explain our loss to Geelong.

In brighter news ( to some) I'M BAAACK from our 12 week sojourn Nth and soooo If DEES are training at CASEY tommorrow , ?? I'm sure I can mosey down and do a Training report!! Can anyone confirm?? Cheers to all .PF

Titan, I appreciate that both you and Binman have gone to great lengths to explain your positions. Neither position is “foolish” as none of us are privy to the real answer. All I know is that we have lost 4 or 5 games this year because we have played poor quality football - for whatever reason, be it dumb wet weather football, poor selections, poor game management, or just poor execution of skills - and I am sick of it and we need to be much better than that. This “loading” may influence some of the reasons listed above, but only some. These are professional athletes that train to execute their skills under pressure and when fatigued, and under both dry and wet weather conditions. There just is no excuse for poor skills or dumb wet weather football. None.

Won the flag. Won the first 10 games the following season. Currently fourth on the ladder. So dramatic!

It ruins conversations on this site. We have been unable to score 80 points for nearly two months and we have forward connection and execution issues but that can’t be discussed because of Demonlands ‘Fire Blanket of Conversation’ - the loading conversation. I have always agreed that aerobic capacity is built on during the season, somehow this then become a two month long theory to explain away declining performances. And that was proven erroneous last year - we were leaking out of our front half and we were then banged up later in the year. Now we start the season with the performance manager at the club saying that the bye week creates a three week period of an opportunity to what some would call ‘load’ - and that has again become the ‘reason’ for maligned performances and execution. Thursday night in Geelong cannot be explained away by fatigue. Our dominance in the contest and pressure and in the press in the first 3 qtrs could not be capitalised on by delivery into a forward line that has little presence and structure. If then the final qtr capitulation is at the lap of Griffith then fine, but review his position at the end of the year - it was that pitiful. We wanted to win that game - we went the day before, we trained on the ground. So we need to address our issues, and I am eager to discuss it.

Our five most improved for 2023 1 Trent Rivers: A massive pre-season saw him look stronger and more confident after a dismal 2022. He really looks the part now intercept marking and his thumping kicks have meant that the coach now occasionally deploys him on the ball in the hope he can kick over the lines. We may have lost to Freo again, but he did overcome his Michael Frederick demons winning or squaring most contests with him this time around. To me, he’s one of the few players who can be deployed to help solve our forward problems, being quick enough to apply tackles and capable and tall enough in the air to provide a third-man up contest when needed. But under Mr “conservative” Goody that won’t happen this year. 2 Tom Sparrow: With Olly out, we’ve had a really good look at whether he’s up to the midfield level required in the AFL now and there’s no doubt he is. He’s a battering ram and he tags as well as almost anyone in our side – from Ben Cunnington to Max Holmes – he’s a real nuisance for opponents. His games against the Blues and Pies showed he can also provide run and drive from clearances – I reckon it’s just a matter of time now before he has a really breakout game by the numbers – ie: 30-plus disposals etc. 3 Jake Bowey: It’s hard to believe this guy spent a week in the VFL as a result of backing into Jake Lever’s knee against Carlton. Like Rivers, he’s shrugged off the flag lethargy and shown he’s even more committed and clean with his hands. His size means he’s going to be beaten occasionally in the air, but once the ball hits the dirt, it’s advantage Bowey – he’s reminiscent of Richmond’s Liam Baker with his quick vision. I also reckon he deserves a shot at Nibbler’s high half-forward/midfield conduit role because he’s a better kick than ANB, but as with Rivers, don’t worry, it won’t happen under our ‘devoid of risk’ coaches. 4 Judd McVee: Chris from Camberwell was a big wrap for this bloke on SEN even if he couldn’t figure out how to pronounce his name after his game against Carlton and he’s not alone. He was handy at best in the VFL last season and most of us were shocked when he got a gig pre-season against Richmond. But a super game on Bolton that day stamped his round 1 papers and since then he’s shown he’s AFL level. Given that Goody gave away Jayden Hunt, his extra pace is crucial to our defensive line-up and he’s also an elite, quick kick. He’s also why we can now send Bowey or Rivers forward if we want to. 5 Jacob van Rooyen: The Roo’s received a lot of publicity which is understandable given his role up front. As with any kid, he’s a bit up and down but as we saw with his last quarter cameo against Richmond he keeps buttering up for a contest and he can be a matchwinner. His game against the Blues showed he had enough vision in traffic to play a little higher and his goal that day from 50m out on the members flank confirmed to me, and others, that he can kick the ball almost as far as Neiter when required.

Not sure I'd have Sparrow up there. Is his form any different to last year?? Yet to see anything from him that suggests he's taken the next step.

It sounds like a central tendon injury. These can take much longer to rehab. Slow heavy load that progresses slowly to faster movements. It is very individual in healing time. With load progression measured by the medical team The week in hospital would of made his hamstring worse because he was not able to load the tendon during this time. Tendons love appropriate load. No load actually makes them worse. We are doing the right thing, we need Oliver in September and there is no point getting him back when he is not ready.

Tbh, just about everyone agrees there is a loading program. You summed up the area of disagreement perfectly in this line: "But of course, it is far from the only factor. And i fully concede that i might be wrong and that is not the biggest factor. But it is 100% a factor - the only real debate is how big a factor" So the scope of the discussion is your position that loading is the biggest factor whereas others say it isn't the biggest factor (re impact on our performances). It isn't possible to demonstrate that either position is right in any given game as there is no data to measure the variables. It comes down to theories and assumptions. So imv, agreement on the area of debate is a head-banging-on-wall level exercise, as it was last year as it will be next year...

Interesting this has come up after a game in the wet, when I thought they dominated the game v Collingwood and were a key part of the reason we won. Definitely not worried about this, but I do believe Max is a better option both forward and behind the ball rather than in the centre square.

Luke Jackson!

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not." Jer. 5:21 (King James version)

A player named on the interchange is a fully participating player. He is usually in the game within the first 6 minutes and usually all interchange players get as many minutes on ground across the entire game as players who just happened to start the game on the field. The enormous difference between an interchange player and a Sub, is that a Sub might never get to participate in the game and simply sit on the rear bench all game, eg, James Jordan in the Premiership team. What an incredible anti climax it would be to name a first gamer as a Sub, and he never get to take the tracksuit off.

I've really only been able to see the Monday review training sessions this year. Lately they have been doing an extra 30 minutes on a Monday, but that is due to the fact that they have had a 4 or 5 day break from the last game. I would assume the "loading" is done in the gym, because the training session I've observed don't usually go longer, and the running sessions don't seem to be more extensive. Trainings seem to be about processes and skills. Even during preseason, they were doing a lot more ball work, than other years. If they are pushing players, I'd imagine they would absolutely need individual programs, so as to optimise the work. Training is usually a group/team program. With loading, they need closer analysis,with specific cardiovascular parameters, which is better suited to a gym. The rehabbers have specific field programs they need to tick off. It is usually done with a one on one, trainer and trainee assistance. I assume if the entire squad is loading then there is not enough trainers to assist. Again, the only place where many can be monitored and do specific programs, is a gym. If they are loading it would be happening out of sight, I reckon.

I’m in the same camp (we need midfielders - or at least one to pick up the baton from Oliver & Petracca). Wilson gives us a ball user with flair and creativity. More outside at this stage, can play in the forward line. He has what we lack in creativity and ball use (has pace as well). There are some questions on his work in the contest, but I like him. Will be hard for him to push up inside the top 8 or so, which is starting to firm up, but if he shows improvement in the contest, could do it. Sanders has been excellent this season, possibly the best inside mid in this years crop. Bit of an Oliver Wines type, does his best work inside, hasn’t shown a tonne in other areas of the ground. From Tassie, so some will have questions whether that’s a potential retention issue down the track, but he relocated to Vic for school last year, maybe not so big an issue. Would have to bide his time for a midfield spot with us, would like to have seen him show some positional flexibility for that reason.

Just on ANB... How did we experience the brilliant knock on - to Pickett in the 3rd when he kicked a goal, against Geelong - did we want ANB dropped then? I know as a species we have a evolutionary preference for looking at the negative, to fix problems, but if you are a supporter expecting games and players to be error free throughout a sport where a) you are physiologically depleted, b) cognitively depleted and c) coming up against opposition who desire to win as much as you do, and d) you yourself get upset at errors that 'look' as though they come at crucial moments, and then disregard errors (from both teams) that occur in Q1, Q2 and Q3, then I guess ANB always deserves to be dropped - and you're right @dazzledavey36 he won't be unless his form warrants it. Thank gawwwd the football department are open to players making errors, without them being crucified like Jesus. 2020 was often refrained with..."You can't win a premiership with players like ANB'

Just sent him my email it's been a pet peeve of mine for quite some time.

Or you could just accept that the hospitalisation set him back a few weeks. It sucks but the hysteria around his injury has been off the charts.

No it wasn't @titan_uranus - all good. I hadn't read your post when i posted it. It was just in my head - sort of. In fact, i had been thinking about the quote, there are none so blind as those who won't see (or whatever it is) the previous night and when i googled it on the bus to work this morning, i landed on the bible quote because apparently that is where it originated from. And I liked the biblical vibe of it. I did however get a bit of a laugh you noting the word foolish, because that made me laugh when i read the quote - a bible sledge! I just read your post .Well reasoned and good points, well made. On the topic of evidence, i think there is heaps of compelling evidence - i just cant be bothered pulling it together (but if you go back to this time last year, and in 2021, there is heaps). In my view, eventually the clubs will stop the silly charade and just start talking about it - Scott, Hardwick and goody and some recently retired footballers in the media (eg Jobe Watson) have been intimating already about it. Personally, i find the post bye results this year pretty compelling evidence. As a footy punter I'm always looking for value. So i am attuned to opportunities for value. A classic example was the round just gone - i had a monster weekend on the back of correctly predicting the Suns and Freo would be completely different teams in their second post bye game (and i also backed the lions, who were well overs because of their average post bye performance against the hawks - when they they had no run in their legs). Chalk and cheese. Take Freo - they were way too short at 1.72. They were only that price because of how woeful they were post bye against the Giants. I watched that game, and you don't need to be sports scientist to see they had no run at all. You could see it. The commentators could too - but just made general comments about their lack of energy. I mean it was clear as day - just as it was in the Lions v Hawks game and the Suns' previous game. The pattern is very clear. It is all about fatigue. But no media people made any comment about that obvious fact. Instead they just bagged the dockers, with no context. And so freo's price against the bombers was soft because many punters don't know to factor in fatigue (why would they if they just listen to the media?). The dockers ran all over the top of the bombers (who were coming off the bye) - exactly as i thought they would. And my bet they would cover their -5 point line was never in doubt. This year has been even better for value. All teams are now implementing faster transition football, which means even the non contenders have to do a heavy block (i think at least 3 weeks, but that's a guess) of training to make sure they have enough run in their legs at the end of the season and not get smashed (West Coast have a lot of problems. One of their biggest is they are nowhere near AFL fit, and so teams are just running rings round them). This year, all teams have been cooked post bye and there is value to be had (but a warning - i don't think there will be as much value this week because of all the talk of the post bye funk - that chat might even create some value on line bets the other way). But just to be clear, as i have noted on any number of occasions, i think, like every team in the AFL (including the Pies - in fact i think they have bigger concerns than us), there are a number of issues of concern. The key concern i have is the second genuine tall forward role. A lot is riding on BB's fitness in my opinion. I had exactly the same concern last year about Tmac - and that was before he got injured. I predicted a loss last week. And i also predicted it would be a dour, scrappy game and we wouldn't play that well. I was right. Lucky? Maybe - but i don't think so. Here's another prediction. We will look a different team on Sunday. And we will absolutely smash the Giants (who are coming off a bye). Lots of punters will mark us down becuase of our performance against the Cats (the pros won't be). That is the perfect recipe for value. The line is currently -19.5. That is way too short. Money for old rope. Go redlegs.

It will be for those attending!

Some of the criticism makes me wonder what’s going on. Is it the weight of expectation? Unrealistic expectation? Or, nostalgia rewriting the form of players in 2021? We got rolled by 2 bottom sides in our premiership year. Players form fluctuated (often dramatically). We came within a kick of having to go and play Port at home in our first final. It may have all felt like a fairy tale thinking back on it, but it wasn’t.

Ron Barassi didn't break through as a gun player until a role was invented for him... that being ruck-rover. This suggestion may be howled down etc but why not play Grundy as a mid/ruck-rover? He could tag-team with Gawn then. The competition may never look the same. When one of these players gets tired they could rest in the back pocket, a la Ted Lees. (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-melbourne-demons--ted-lees

C'mon mate, I sat on Barassi's knee and bought a pair of Ron Barassi plastic boots out at Chadstone in the early 60's. Have no recollection of he '64 flag and have lived through decades of darkness with Demons. The '21 flag was a magnificent occurrence. We get to experience a Redlegs flag in our lifetime - the players who facilitated our euphoria are now eternal legends. They are Icons such as Trac, Clarry, Max, Kozzie and Fritta and are now etched into our lore. Chin up mate - we've got it made.

Ignoring 2023 debutants, I'd argue that our most improved players so far this year have been Rivers, Chandler and Salem (on the limited football he's been able to play this year). McVee and JVR are obviously "improved" players but had nothing to compare to previously. I'd also argue Petracca and Viney have improved this year. Petracca has taken his defensive work to another level, particularly with Oliver out. Viney's getting better with ball in hand. I think Sparrow is a more consistent player now and is getting scapegoated unnecessarily, but I also believe he is capable of more and can lift.

Despite his drop in form over the last month, Chandler has been a huge standout so far this season.

For the record, I think loading happens but everyone does it. The crows and Blight started in in 97-98. It’s not new. But if it is being used as a reason for poor form it’s too easily misinterpreted as an excuse. On Thursday we were 2 goals down after conceding 3 goals in a row. Game on line. Atkins soccered it to a vacant wing. The photo below is a few moments after and we had 3 of the 4 closest players to the ball. By the time Hunter picked it up, Geelong had 4 players on him in an instant and we had no-one near Hunter. No one bothered to shepherd. No one bothered to run hard in case he fumbled. No one ran to receive a handball just in case. Max had jogged about 5 metres. Geelong scored from the turnover and game over. Burgo is notorious for 100x100’s in heat, and is on the record as saying it’s because players learn they always have more effort to give, no matter what. If Collingwood put in abysmal efforts like above in 4th qtrs regardless of loading, I can’t imagine what their players would cop from supporters but it wouldn’t be “jolly good effort, you’ll do better when you have finished loading.”

Would the keyboard hamstring experts give it a rest.

No, fresh text every time! Which now that i think about it is pretty silly. But the search function on DL is a shocker so it takes ages to find previous post once they are more than a few months old But that it for this season on this topic. I'm done. I'm not sure why i bother to be honest - i'm not gong to convince any naysers who aren't convinced by now. I'm going to take your advice and go back and copy and paste all my recent posts on the topic into the word document. And this time next year copy and paste with some minor edits to make it 2024 simpatico. It will save me a lot of hours!

Like you @Diamond Tim I'm still on a high 640 dayz later.

Impressive effort by the OP to use a '5 most improved' list to include three separate digs at the coach. Anyway, our most improved; Rivers - from a respectable starting point to a serious player. Chandler - from question mark to exclamation mark, just needs to recalibrate his radar back to the early season level. Salem - not sure it counts when he's already shown it in a grand final, but the return to form is a big deal. A few others like Bowey, Van Rooyen, and of course McVee seem more like 'the kids are going along nicely' than any specific or surprising improvement. I'd also say that Viney reached his new level during a stellar mid-season period last year and has simply carried on with it. I don't see the alleged improvement from Sparrow. I think he's just pushing along at a level, which is legitimate AFL level but not outstanding. Just quietly, I think Tomlinson should get a mention among the improvers. Fingers crossed he re-establishes himself in the team after basically two seasons of injury and post-injury poor form.

and now to start the 15 players that have gone backwards thread 😂

I suppose it will also depend on the strategy that any given team uses. Could be that Collingwood prefers zone defence, in that case all Fritta needs to do is to stay in the vicinity of the area guarded by Moore. On the other hand, if a team prefers man to man coverage, you'd need to have very mobile forwards going up and down the field to confuse/attract the opposition defensive line and create the match ups that you want.

Same on Sparrow, need to see more. Probably the disappointment of the year, bar the first couple of weeks , has been Kozzy. We all expected him to have a major role this season and it hasn't come to fruition. I still trust and expect him to become a key player for us, but Goodwin needs to rediscover his confidence and perhaps use him better on the ground.

Draft talent wrap from Foxsports: https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/draft/afl-draft-prospects-2023-order-rankings-west-coast-pick-1-harley-reid-daniel-curtin-koltyn-tholstrup-nate-caddy-stars/news-story/aa4b1bef53fc9c2cf56d3962b8c947f9

Correct, will back their judgement over mine anytime. However if something looks odd or weird it's worth asking the question.

Yeah he's an absolute gun. Been fan of his for a while. He's just a tad on the shorter side of a genuine KPF but then again, it hasn't stopped Charlie Curnow.

Nate Caddy draft stock is rising 6.4 and 25 disposals on weekend could be a nice fit next to van rooyen ??

I think it is possible that the fitness professionals know more about it than we - or at least I -do.

That’s the spirit!

Sparrow up there with Zeus in myth status

If I'm being honest Rivers has probably been our only player who's taken a big step since last season.

Rivers and McVee are the standouts. Viney is also having a great year

Would love to grab Nate Caddy this year. Different to Jefferson and Roo (only 192cm) he’s kicking goals and getting big numbers in the midfield too. Unique player!

In other news, Doggies will take another Key Position Forward FS in Jordon Croft. They are a little top heavy and may look to trade one of their key talls out while they still have currency. But they’ll likely have to move Naughton to the backline to keep them all in the same team. Naughton, Darcy, JUH, English, Lobb. Some serious KP talent there.

Latest rankings from Rookie Me Draft Central: https://central.rookieme.com/afl/power-rankings/afl-draft-power-rankings-june-2023/

I see why you picked your user name.

Based on the latest Oliver time line it will be at minimum a 7 week Hamstring if he comes back next week. Given he was allowed to play out the game that is pure negligence by our fitness and team doctors to risk our best player like that, it may well end up costing us top 4 and a chance at a flag this year.

Did you see them loading? :)

There is another possible reason why Collingwood doesn't play in Geelong. We all know the State government has been happy to fund the redevelopment of the stadium because it is in an area with a few marginal electorates. But has the government adequately funded the Police? With insufficient police numbers in Geelong, hosting a Collingwood game with its supporters is a much higher community risk than having the safer Melbourne supporters in town.

Aren't we a team of, play anywhere, anytime. It is a good creed, and I like it. The Kitty's will fall off their egotistical pedestal and some day the skills will decline, then we'll even up those win/loss stats. They may already be in decline. Eventually Geelong will get finals at their oval and we will be better on the night/day for that experience. I prefer the GMBHA as away games than interstate ones, mainly because the players don't have to travel very far. Though, hanging out at Torque the night before didn't seem to work. Through trying things, we will find the best approach, which some other teams don't get a chance to explore.