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What annoys me about all this, is that North have suffered more from this racism allegations than Hawthorn have, and Hawthorn are the club in question. I have no idea who is or isn't innocent in all this, but the one thing I agree with is that this investigation has been a farce, and Hawthorn have somehow come out of it unscathed, while the individuals involved are left hanging. God bless the AFL and it's complete lack of integrity. A joke of an organisation!

Salem has done a good three to four week block of training. Has participated in a couple of match sims and has come out feeling really strong. He’s very happy to be back. Some info was passed on from someone with ties to the club. Wish him well on his first game for the season and we are a hell of a lot better with a firing Salo.

I said it at the time - and i'll say it again now. It was of course wholly predictable that the media would focus on the alleged actions of Fagan and Clarkson because they are perfect click bait - but the focus on them from the get go was, and remains, a dangerous furphy. (to be crystal clear I’m not suggesting Clarkson and/or Fagan did not do the things they have been accused of in the report, or minimising those allegations in any way. But we don’t know the specifics – they are contested and presumably will be addressed in any investigation. However, WE DO KNOW from the report there was poor cultural practices at the HFC and examples of very questionable cultural competency). But not only is the hyper focus on Clarkson and Fagan unfair on them, it completely distracts from the critical questions that should be asked – was Hawthorn culturally unsafe, what quality and governance system were in place to make sure what has been alleged could not happen, what policies and procedures were in place, was there systemic racism at play etc. I have been involved in accreditation, audit and review processes for a long time. One of the fundamentals of quality reviewing and auditing is that unless an individual is actively disregarding policy (and the obligation is on the org to make sure employees are aware of all relevant policies and how to comply with them), the fault falls on the organisation – in short if there is some system break down or poor practice it is the org not the individual who is at fault. For the sake of argument, let’s say that broadly speaking some of the more salacious specifics are contested. But it is accepted that senior coaching staff met with young Aboriginal players IN THEIR HOMES to discuss sensitive family related issues (like living arrangements, relationships) WITHOUT them having their own support networks present or involving family (even at that point in time, involving family was accepted good cultural practice – at least it was in the community sector where I work. One only needs to listen to Kozzie talk about his contract negotiations to understand why). The first question should not be what specifically those coaches said or did in those meetings, but rather were they operating in accordance with the club policies and within HFC cultural practice frameworks – and did they even exist (and if so what ongoing training did staff receive to help them understand them and build cultural competencies and how are/were they reviewed to ensure staff are complying with them)? What were the supervision practices in place to provide a forum to explore exactly such practice issues and support fidelity and adherence with the relevant policies? Another question is did Hawthorn, as part of accepted good governance, regularly review their cultural policies and practices? A related question is why did these issues take so long to come to light (at the minimum suggesting players did not feel comfortable raising issues)? What were their complaints policies, were players aware of the complaint policies, were they encouraged and supported to make complaints, was the environment supportive of them doing so, what was the exit interview policy, what was the compliant management system, were these polices and systems adhered to etc etc. Very few, if any of these questions have been asked by the media. Almost all the focus and criticism has been on Fagan and Clarkson. It should be on HAWTHORN, who have copped very little blow back. And unhelpfully the focus has now drilled down on specifics that are always going to be grey, contestable and dependant on perception. For example Clarkson framed his discussion about partners as being an example of caring for his players. And that sounds reasonable. But from a cultural perspective, such a conversation is likely to be traumatic for an Aboriginal player (for example because family members were part of the stolen generation), particularly a young player trying to find his feet and a regular senior spot. And that is not even factoring in enormous power imbalance at play. Maybe Clarkson didn’t understand the cultural sensitivities? But if not, that’s on HAWTHORN, not Clarkson – unless of course Hawthorn can point to a strong cultural competence system and a rigorous process of ensuring compliance with that system. I may be wrong, but I’ll bet my bottom dollar they didn’t have one in place. And if they did, it failed because they clearly didn’t act at the time. The media has been playing the man, not the ball – and the Hawthorn Football Club (the ball in this hamfsited analogy) should have pushed back on this narrative and accepted their responsibility but instead allowed two former employees, one of whom their President is in open conflict with, to basically be the fall guys. I'm not trying to make Fagan and Clarkson the victims here (which by the by raises yet another reason why the focus on them is so damaging - the commentary has devolved into how unfair it has been on Fagan and Clarkson and debating their innocence or guilt). The actual victims are the Aboriginal players and their families. That is where the focus should be But they are victims not of Clarkson and Fagan’s, butr their employers – the Hawthorn Football Club. It is the Hawthorn Football Club who is responsible for ensuring a safe working environment for all it staff - players and coaches alike. And it is the Hawthorn board and senior management who should be bearing the brunt of all of this, not two of their ex employees.

no winners in this. Best not to comment or speculate.

A Hawthorn supporter friend reminded me that the Hawks won the 3rd quarter, like it was an important win. In an incredibly condescending tone I said, good for you. Supporting a good side is fantastic.

You have to feel for North in all of this.

The victims / accusers are not prepared to give any sworn evidence. In any public trial , the case would have been thrown out, so I’m confused as to why the investigation continues. When this initially broke I was heavily against the the way this was ‘leaked’ to the media for this reason alone. Nothing has been achieved, nobody has been sanctioned and two notable figures have had their reputation tarnished based on a review that failed to interview the defendants? It is mind boggling how grossly unprofessional this has been.

Meet Teddy. Loves watching footy on TV (that is the 2021 GF he is watching). Very good corralling defence work. Can be selfish with the ball, doesn't share it around.

Salem is a gun and has been in full training for a month

Inept cowards at AFL HQ refusing to deal properly with an issue because they couldn't find a way to control the outcomes. = Absolutely everyone touched by this is being put through a slow pulverization.

Here is a man of integrity and one of the best coaches of all time and has been tossed aside by the AFL based on political BS. He has been labeled a racist and put through a disgraceful process without any due process. Clarko can handle stress as demonstrated by his 12 years at the Hawks, this is something else. The AFL have ruined his career and probably others to come and set North back another couple of years. i hope he sues the AFL

Max Imagine how bad Lycett will go against Gawn and Grundy lol. Ruck Ollie Wines. Lycett to give Gawndy the old warhorse treatment. We could do worse things than bringing in Visentini to support Lycett in the ruck. How many L-plate rucks can we play in a game? Fairly sure Teakle and Lord have priority there. We are going to get smashed in the ruck no matter who plays for us. With regards to the rucks, I am praying. Ruck Ollie Wines. I'm sure one of the ruck boys can "Sam Mitchell" him (Max) in the first 10 minutes. We need to think outside the box. The forecast is for rain and if we get enough of it the Gawn and Grundy effect around the ground could be minimised. Whatever the game plan is it will have to be based around losing the ruck contests regardless of who is selected in that role for Port. The coaching group don't care about winning hit outs. Josh Carr said this weeks ago. But I am going to spew up this week if I see Melbourne kick uncontested goals from boundary throw ins when the ball is in their forward line due to Teakle's inability to provide a ruck contest. Teakle has to put body on body. None of this bear hugging his ruck opponent. And Lycett is not the answer. He should never play another AFL game. Defense Lever for 20 intercept marks if we use the usual Hinkley forward 50 entry tactic, especially with no Dixon and Marshall. Will be fun to watch. A forward line of Finlayson with Lord and Teakle next in line looks worrying against May and Lever. We will totally confuse May and Lever. We can't just let Lever & May have a field day with bomb entries either. If we can win the midfield or break even and get a bit of space and we hit targets, the influence of Lever and May will be lessened. I would be putting Drew of Petracca to slow him down too. Yup they do seem a bit vulnerable with the ground ball in defence. We are no chance without Dixon. We need Dixon just to occupy Steven May. Need to use a semi-fit Dixon and Lord to tag May and Lever and then use the smalls and Finlayson as the avenues to goal. The old decoy strategy. Against the best defence in the comp, it will be a miracle if we can win. Forwards Would be tempted to bring in Burgoyne to try keep Pickett quiet. Petty is unlikely to play which is a big loss for us. Mids The 2 players that need to stand up more than anybody, defensively especially, are Wines and Drew. Oliver, Petracca and Viney will have an absolute field day otherwise. Ken Boy, remember when Ken WAS brave and TRIED to win games we weren’t expected to! Then we have this plonker who has set up a few times to ‘minimise’ the damage… Where did it all go wrong Ken? if we play the game with a defensive, just minimise the damage, don't even try to score plan, like we did last year I'll spew up. Sack Hinkley. Essendon beat Melbourne a couple of weeks ago. They are totally beatable with a good coach and a good plan. Carr to remain match day coach from the box while Stinkers stays on the bench where he can scrape the built-up mud out of the players boots with his tongue. They definitely have weaknesses, and perhaps Ken is the man to exploit that… :) maybe not and Gawn will Gawn babies all over Teakle. Miscellaneous Given our extensive injury situation, and the fact that Melbourne are probably a class above us anyway, I won't be shattered with a loss. I really rate the Dees. We are going to be audited Friday night and our form over the last 6 weeks will be moderated as a result. Port play well as underdogs. I’ll pencil in a win. Melbourne by 49 points. I reckon there is a really big gap now between the top teams: Melbourne, Brisbane, Collingwood, and the rest. On top of that we have significant outs and your strengths are perfectly matched against our biggest weaknesses (Gawn+Grundy vs Teakle, BBB vs our short defence, May/Lever vs our forward line with 4 of our best players out). I'll be pleasantly very surprised if we're competitive in this one. If we win over a team with 2 x dominant key defenders and 2 x dominant rucks it will show serious signs of both development and game plan improvement. Ultimately nothing will be proven til finals but if we beat Melbourne it will be time to pull out the dumb and dumber memes. I could see us going the dirty ball tactic from a few years ago over west against West Coast… however don’t have a 19 year old Rozee to park at FF and be able to hit ground balls at pace. Some fun stats: We are number 1 for generating offensive 1v1 contests, approx 20% better than second (Bulldogs). We are AFL average for winning them. We are AFL average for allowing defensive 1v1 contests. We are number 18 for losing them, approx 15% worse than second (Essendon). QD's fave Ultimately it doesn't matter whether we take the knife, the machete or the axe to this gun fight, the result will be the same.

Meh. Anybody, anywhere, anytime. I'm particularly looking forward to our 2.30pm timeslot on Saturday 30th September.

Yes, 3x 6-day breaks, but it comes off like 3x 10-day breaks. Across a 42-day window from Round June 2 - July 14, we play 6 games. That's an average 7-day break between games. People need to calm down. Saints also come off a 6-day break from Perth. Brisbane a 6-day break when they play us. What I love is 3x Sunday games at 3:20pm. Quickly becoming my favourite timeslot.

I just wonder...and purely my thinking ... if Clarko has just had enough of all the b.s. He and Fagan apparently being painted into a corner. Maybe he's just said F that, F you all at AFL...I'm not playing your silly little games....not going to rollover... bugger you lot. Taking my bat and ball and leave you all to your delusions. Just dont need this [censored]. I wonder 🤔

Think you're underselling Macca a little PF. He's a proud experienced campaigner and will add the "leading forward" who can also play higher up ther field as the connector at times. Allows Roo to play a bit more time deeper and focus on crashing packs / getting ball to ground and taking the odd contested. Roo is also a very accurate kick up to about 35 meters. Makes sense to keep him closer to the 30 meter zone. The boys will need to ensure they don't kick too many shallow entries though in order for the strat to pay off. Port will of course be looking to curtail that idea!

Disagreements occur on this site all the time. It's what makes things interesting. The parry and thrust can be quite stimulating and educational. There are quite a few posters who have some wonderful insights and knowledge of the game and share it in generous ways. There are also others who simply lact tact and basic manners. In effect Demonland is a of course like all social media platforms a microcosm . Some posters can argue with you or correct you in a polite and somtimes jovial manner ( just normal life skills)and of course there are those who through pride, anger or ar5olitis ( as my dad used to so succinctly call it), just cant and for some reason feel good in putting others down. They're not exclusive to this sight. We deal with them as the bullying boss, the surly sister, bothersome brother, narcissistic neighbour and of course the road rager. Demonland in its foresight and wisdom has provided us with the wonderful gift of the IGNORE option. I wish I could use it in everyday life. For what is worth WCW, your posts are always honest, fun, informative , polite and upbeat. I thank you for them and all the work you do for the club which is probably more than anyone else posting here. Cheers.

I like the changes. T mac will be desperate to keep his spot and I think his leading patterns help Fritsch and create great space for our forward group. He just needs to compete hard when it's not on a silver platter for him and not allow his opponent to out-body him for a mark. That's all I care about. We've got enough pressure at ground level. Salem in will give us a spirit boost, even if he doesn't rip it up. Jordon of course unlucky but also who does he play ahead of? I really don't like him on a wing and clearly neither to the coaches given they acquired Hunter. Jordon is pretty one-dimensional and whilst he competes hard and does the defensive stuff well, he's not going to carry us forward so I think he'll leave and understand the position he's in. Every competing club has similar situations with players. He'll also know we have a serious draft haul coming which means better talent and they'll be fast tracked whilst our stars are still in their prime. Can't wait for tomorrow, feeling confident about this one.

Unfortunately for those players you mention, they're not like-for-like. And Salo is a lefty with elite foot skills. Those other guys aren't and are in competition for spots in different parts of the ground. Bold move for sure, but I've heard he's been match load running for a while now. I like the move, aggressive. And I think it will give our boys a lift. They love him, premiership player, best mates with Trac and Clarry. Fingers crossed he gets through and makes a significant contribution.

Good hypothesis I reckon. Salo can basically slot into the role he has played his best footy in - true half back, playing off his opponent, hard at it when needed, good with the ground ball and neat, forward 30 - 40 metre kicks that hit targets. Mcvee plays as more a lock down defender and bowser can sweep up out the back and push forward and get creative. So we have three tough half back flankers who win their own ball and have elite kicking skills. And Salem will relish that we are taking more risk with our kicks this season. For a team that is already one of the best at scoring on transition, a set up with Salem, McVee and Bowey is something to look forward to.

That is beside the point, coaching a rock bottom team is hard enough - add to that these allegations that are being drawn out, any normal person would have buckled a long time ago.

Will be a good watch on Salem. I trust the clubs judgement, but he was so out of touch last year when back from injury. Feel he needs a run in the VFL, but we will see. Love the idea of Rivers in the centre more, so if Salem offers that option, then I’m comfortable. TMAC while limited, offers more forward pressure than BB, rain and slippery conditions also favour him. Okay ins I guess.

He's an MFC immortal.

1. Agree. 2. Strongly disagree. The 'accusers' don't owe anyone anything. They voluntarliy agreed to participate in a HFC initiated process. 3. Agree. But if they want to so, then they need to seek damges from the HFC and/or the media for its reporting.

General warning to all. Please don't make statements that might be construed as defamatory or cast aspersions on an individual's guilt.

I don't have a dog, but I have these for you.

I'm assuming that this will be a Knight match.

I would love to hear an interview with our Performance Data Scientist Robert Younger ... l am almost certain our kick in strategy, kicks inside 50, and many other parts of our game plan are heavily influenced by his analysis. https://www.figuringfooty.com/2016/06/29/goal-kicking-accuracy-maps-expscore/

He’s playing on Oliver and Petracca tomorrow. I doubt anyone sleeps well under those conditions.

Picket, I find it helps to read your posts in the accent of Donald Trump, makes them more understandable

Thinking it could be a bit of reverse think by the FD here EO? Port VG at preventing teams from marking, especially shorter kicks, in an attempt to force the oppo to kick it longer down the line to 50/50s. They do this by going one v one rather than zoning on opp players closer to the ball carrier while still applying a zone further out. Bringing Salo in might be somewhat of a counter from us. Ie., bringing in another very good user of the ball by foot over shorter (kick / mark) distances to combat their strat here so they aren't getting the game on their terms so easily.

Love Salem but that selection integrity in AFL is like paying taxes - doesn’t apply to the elite. I hope it works out for him.

That Hawthorn supporter is still huddled in the corner, rocking backwards and forwards, mumbling to himself that last Saturday never happened.

The Age are currently uploading rounds 16-23 in their Fixture section: Currently confirmed games (which we all sort of knew anyway) Sunday Footy here we come. Round 16: Melbourne v GWS - TP - Sunday 2 July 3:20pm (Channel 7) Round 17: St Kilda v Melbourne - Marvel - Saturday 8 July 7:25pm (Channel 7) Round 18: Melbourne v Brisbane - MCG - Friday 14 July 7:50pm (Channel 7) Round 19: Melbourne v Adelaide - MCG - Sunday 23 July 3:20pm (Channel 7) Round 20: Richmond v Melbourne - MCG - Sunday 30 July 3:20pm ( Channel 7) Round 21: North Melbourne v Melbourne - BA - Sunday 6 august 1:10pm (FOX) Round 22: Carlton v Melbourne - MCG - Saturday 12 August 7:25pm (Channel 7) Round 23: Melbourne v Hawthorn - MCG - Sunday 20 August 3:20pm (Channel 7) Round 24 Sydney v Melbourne TBC (But has to be Saturday or Sunday given we have already had our 5 day break)

We should start a thread for the most interesting/ exotic/ most remote and or strangest places watched . Perhaps with what people as well. In my mind' s eye, I can see some die-hard supporter decked out in Dees paraphernalia listening to some crackling old valve radio in the middle of a forest/ lifeboat somewhere. I was once stranded on a dodgy houseboat on the Clyde River near Batemans Bay having to constantly hold the radio in different positions just to check scores. When I say dodgy, she was perfectly seaworthy unlike my wife and I. If anyone wants a quick hassle free uncontested divorce, I do reccomend houseboating with one's partner. Incidently this reminds me of a Perth mate who had tix for the 21 granny which sadly clashed with his wedding day. Rather than let the tickets be wasted, he placed an add in the local paper for any one wanting to take his place. " It's at 4pm @ St Mary's Catholic cathedral. 41 Victoria Square. Her name is Rachael." I'll see myself out. Ps Maroochydore is not a bad spot to be in. Especially if you pull in a few fish at half time.

And Freemantle

Interesting reading, seems like they aren't too confident and supporters of other teams backing us. …. … … … … A line in the sand match where we show up as being contenders or pretenders. Would have like to go into this match with a full compliment of fit players but time for our coaching department to earn their keep with good selections and strategy. Players need to be sharp from the get go. Teakle will get 1 hit out, only out of sympathy from grundy and gawn Interesting pessimism from the Demon fans here. Bring the intent and you got this. We have an undersized defence, no ruck and an unsettled forward line. We only have unpredictablity and a home crowd in our favour. The famous port affirmative roar that has sucked the umpires in to a -44 free kick differential for port to this point in the season. We are going to get pumped like the rd2 game. Who have we beaten really? Comments on who dees beat, how about us? Struggled in every win. …. … … … … This gave me a laugh, coming from a Hawthorn supporter. Kenny will have Port fired up Melbourne will be exposed as just making up the numbers in 2023. Port by 34

This is my daughters dog Simba. He loves the MFC and loves wearing his demon polo.

Might alternate with Rivers

A big surprise with Salo. I hope the club isn’t rushing him back. They did last year and his season really suffered. Thrilled with no Dixon. He’s a monster and he always troubles us.

Woo hoo, Go Salo.

James Harmes has achieved the greatest success that anyone could dream of - winning a premiership at the club that he grew up supporting and being drafted to. Who amongst us would not give anything to achieve this? If it is true that he can no longer command a place in our best 23-24 then the choice is his - remain a one club demon and play a lot of VFL or go elsewhere seeking opportunities at AFL level. Given his contribution to the dees, I would support whichever decision he makes. He will not be forgotten by the dees and I am sure that his heart will remain with the dees..

They are top 4 after missing finals last year and its still Sack Hinkley Gotta love footy!

Looks like tmac

Wow, not cool at all. I must admit I was saying to a mate over the weekend that I felt the stress of the job and the outside stuff with the investigation was taking a toll on Clarko. Has looked completely dishevelled and burnt out recently. Hope he's okay.

I think the issue of tanking is largely dissolved by now. The anxiety about it was always a legacy of the priority pick system which rewarded having fewer than a specific number of wins and gave a massively disproportionate benefit. Once upon a time a difference of one additional win would cost you an additional top-3 pick in the draft. It was ludicrous. Now that the 'incentive' is just the incremental progress of the pick you already have, tanking is a very limited offer. The ex-public-servant in me also recoils at the eternal process of 'just one more tweak added to make it all work just right'. That way lies madness and we all see it. If I was looking for a solution, I'd point to the same thing which would solve almost all of Australian football's problems - a serious investment in the second-tier competitions. Anyway, I'd argue that any selection in the first handful of draft picks is as likely to match pick 1 as not. Consider some pick 1s vs their best top-5 peers. 2013: Boyd vs Kelly, Billings, Bontempelli 2014: McCartin vs Petracca, Brayshaw, De Goey 2015: Weitering vs Mills, Oliver, Parish 2016: McGrath vs Taranto, McCluggage, 2017: Rayner vs Brayshaw, Davies-Uniacke, Cerra 2018: Walsh vs Rankine, Rozee, 2xKing 2019: Rowell vs Anderson, Jackson, Ash Pick 1 is almost certainly a very good player, but is no more likely to be the best of the draft than any other pick at the top.

Went to the Perth Mint in Summer (Which I highly recommend by the way) and saw the million dollar coin that weighs a tonne and is currently worth around $50 million based on all the gold in it. Amazing stuff.

You're absolutely right Deever, it is something that has been a challenge for me personally but it's the disagreements that make this place the thinking forum that it is and not the slander and hogwash you see on social media. It can be a challenge disagreeing in text, you just miss so many important aspects of a face to face discussion. You can take the most polite responses in text as an attack if you have the wrong mindset. It's all about having the right one.

Good little article and analysis by David King (Still annoys me) which explains about the importance of our kick outs by Steven May. I think this has frustrated fans by being so one dimensional but seems to be another of our key stat that's working well for us.

Just posted this on the Meeting Place thread but I'll chuck it over here too Really nice interview with Eddie Betts and Nev Jetta last night. Nev has worked with Eddie to launch the Eddie Betts foundation - https://eddiebetts.foundation/ Hope Nev ends up back with us at some point in the future. Love the bloke. For those in Perth (D'landers feel free to tag WA members in case they're interested), he's doing a fundraiser night / Q&A with his cousin Lewis Jetta for a junior footy club soon. Buggered if I could find any details online. Would be interesting to hear their stories about finding their way into the AFL.