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Those who didn't get to see footy back then will not understand what seeing Vagg in that game was like. It was man-on-man football back then, and everybody played with just one opponent. That day Melbourne kept Vagg way out on the flank in a vast amount of open space. (Reminiscent of the famous Robbie Flower game against Richmond, I think.) As the game got going, Vagg progressively got on top. Then every Melbourne thrust seemed to be directed through his flank, and every time, he won the ball. It was truly heroic stuff, one slightly built guy up against whoever Essendon's could put out there, and they couldn't stop him. As I remember it, he had 4 goals and a number of behinds by half time, and Essendon had no other star defenders to try - it was a question of how many will he end up with. One of the most thrilling afternoon's of total domination that I have ever seen - though the second half was an anti-climax. I was too young to be able to say how he was quietened down. With Vagg it wasn't speed, or power - it was just like watching some kind of mesmerism going on.. Bugs was one of my very favourite players from that era.

I often wonder when we are getting beaten out of the middle why Max doesn’t belt a few forward and just have our quickest midfielder heading in the direction we are going! Once or twice a quarter could be planned! Re the 8 reasons, my eight would be: - Better drawer - Less off season surgeries - Nearly 40 players getting a full pre season - In particular be great to see midfield of Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw all getting a pre season so they can actually run - Complemented by new recruits in Langdon and Tomlinson(crap pre season) providing outside run, I also think Harmes could play wing role even if training with half backs - Backline with May & Lever In it, plus having trained as a back 6-8 will help, add Jetta, Hibberd, OMac, J Smith all fit must help! - Players able to play in correct positions, e.g. Fritsch thrown all over ground last year to cover for injuries, let him play forward all year will definitely help forward line - Due to better pre season for nearly 40 players, the team will be fitter and run out games much better, also have gut feeling that due to better fitness base will have less injuries during the year! Bonus points: Run, endurance and confidence are three keys to success in AFL, we had none last year, add those three into the mix a bit of luck with injuries and you will see a totally different team in 2020! Go Demons!!

All the best to all at Demonland! Mods, what an outstanding forum and fan site.. thanks! To all Posters, whether I agree or not, Thanks for providing a really interesting conversation and banter and occasionally heated discusiion! It is the PASSION, that we share and although we do have differences at least we are united in one thing, A LONG OVERDUE FLAG! So I send this All the best! " Try not too stay too static or cute. Premierships won long ago memory can decay and become like brown Squashy Fruit, Change, is the seed to personal growth and a footy club so passionate, that it demands perfection and swear on the Grand old Flag Oath! And submit to the Challenges that aspire to greatness, all that we seem, Follow the Blueprint, those in command, and there stands before us The Premiership Dream!"

Impossible question really. However, if both were fit Tomlinson would clearly be in front for reasons of experience and consistency of performance . Most would rate him as a “better player” Kk has been cruelled by his concussion issues. One can only hope that he successfully overcomes these in order to show what he is capable of

Such an open question. In terms of fitness? Skill work? Game plan/rules understanding? I realise it’s a combination of all of these and other things so we are really narrowing it down to the newbies and the rookies... For me it’s probably Bedford. His time trial running has been fantastic so he’s got that right... shown a few glimpses last year so I reckon the staff should be investing heavily into Toby. He and Kozzie could prove really dynamic in the forward half as a pairing.

We haven't really had a dominant midfield for many years. I mean really dominant. We had a good year in 2018 but you have to go back to Todd Viney or greg Wells to find a dominant mid. We have the makings of our best midfield for many years if they can continue to improve, Oliver can become more damaging, Tracc can impose himself and Viney can return to form.

I totally get where he is coming from though. If you could wave a magic wand and make them both 100% right now then Tomlinson would be ahead by a long way. KK has simply missed too much footy to over the past few years. He would be so out of touch.. Which is what his two games this year were. I don't rate Tomlinson that highly, but he will play his role and will hopefully be durable. I was bullish about getting KK. I've done a complete 180 now. I think he is done. I don't think we will ever see him play again and i'm not sure if I want him to. I cringe when I think of him getting hit in the head again. I nearly felt this way about Brayshaw too, so fingers crossed that i'm wrong and that he makes it back.

As for the post-season tipping comp, this is what we did last year ... Thought we'd go again with the same format unless there might be a better way. Post up your thoughts but we don't want to make it too complicated. For added interest we've traditionally posted up the scorelines for all the playoff games (with the SB scoreline being the relevant scoreline) Week 1 - For each winner - I point Week 2 - For each winner - 1 point Week 3 - For each winner - 2 points SB - For each winner - 3 points plus ... an extra 2 points if the actual winning score (not margin) of your winning team falls within 3 points of your team's nominated winning score. Example - Actual SB score ends up as Ravens 30 Seattle 28 If your scoreline had the Ravens winning and if the score you post up for the Ravens is anywhere from 27 - 33 points, you'll be awarded 3 points for the win plus 2 extra bonus points for getting the winning score within 3 points. n.b. Your scoreline has to have the Ravens winning to qualify for the 2 bonus points. The losing team's score in the SB is not relevant with regards to the possible bonus points available. Anyway paging ... @JV7 @Go the Biff @Macca @Gorgoroth @Dee Zephyr @Clintosaurus @layzie @Dappa Dan @DeeSpencer @Dr. Gonzo @titan_uranus @DemonDave

Happy New Year to all the Demonlanders. Whether I agree with you or not I respect the hell out of every single one of you for the dedication and loyalty you show the club through so many hard times. Let's hope that 2020 is the year the curse is finally broken and we see a long overdue flag.

My post was looking at if KK had never been injured in the first place and what each player's ceilings would be in the role. His games for us this year are pretty much null and void after how much football he missed. He really shouldn't have been in the team in the first place imo.

KK would have had a much better career than Tomlinson if he never had the injury concerns. No offence to Tomlinson, but KK is much better suited to a wing. We got Tomlinson because he is a solid best 22 option who is versatile and doesn't have injuries (Until he got to us and got injured immediately). He has shown he can play the wing position and can do it better than the majority of our list. Its a funny question really... How good would Trengove been without the foot injury? How good would the Ox have been without the knee reconstructions? Would Luke Molan be considered a bust if he never got injured? If my grandmother had wheels she would be a bicycle.

Dunkley’s form was good enough as a 19 year old in the VFL to get drafted mid year and then good enough at Casey VFL to get promoted for AFL games (granted with a very deep injury list). All off the back of no AFL preseason yet people call him guaranteed not to make it and it assumes a yard stick of not getting senior games in 2020. He seemed to lack a yard but naturally knows how to find the ball, connect play and kick a goal. Assuming we are blessed with a more balanced list this year I suspect he will ply his trade in the mid field for Casey and be ready to seriously push in 2021 as you would expect a development curve to look. Rivers has tools we have in shot supply and with Hibberd and Jetta likely to show decline even if fit and Harmes somewhat of an unknown off half back opportunities could be there if he develops ahead of the curve in his first year. I would still anticipate though with a balanced list that a solid year at Casey with maybe a few games if opportunities arise would be the most to consider.

Happy New Year everyone and especially a healthy and safe one, together with a great year by the Dees.

Personally I think it’s too early to write Dunkley off as ‘depth’. He’s been in the system for half a season, was highly rated in that mid-season draft and has played senior footy. It took his brother Josh a few years to get going and his whole family are sporting achievers so there’s a lot of scope for him - particularly being a young bloke. Rivers inclusion in the senior team will be dictated by Hibbo’s availability and form. A season developing at Casey will be fine however I do I agree he looks a likely type to slot in to the team earlier rather than later.

THE YEAR THE SKY FELL After a number of years of linear movement up the ladder, the Melbourne Football Club unexpectedly went into serious decline in 2019, slumping from fourth to 17th in a season that coach Simon Goodwin described “a complete wipe-out”. Those around the club who tried to analyse the apocalyptic events that unfolded during the year were hard pressed to find a single reason for the debacle but the most plausible explanation was that the club’s troubles stemmed from a lack of fitness and injuries that derailed the season before it began. There was a significant amount of optimism surrounding the Demons over the summer months. Some of the pundits in the media were even suggesting that they were flag favourites based on their forward momentum over a number of years, their midfield strength as shown statistically by their control of stoppages and their high scoring in 2018 suggesting a coherent system of play and a powerful forward line. The team was maturing and it was thought that the sky was the limit but, as it turned out, the sky fell. Melbourne’s newly appointed head of high performance Darren Burgess recently said that he believed there wasn’t much the club could have done about the situation the club found itself in both before and during the season. “Having done a lot of research on what happened last year there was a lot of comment about their fitness or lack of, the surgery just kills you,” he said. “When you’ve got 17 or 18 players in surgery and 16 were in their best 22, it just kills you.” And so the club went into the pre season without many of its key players, particularly in the midfield. The signs in the two JLT Community Series matches against Richmond and Brisbane were not good although when considered with the hindsight of knowing they were against two of the top three place getters after the home and away season including the eventual premier, it wasn’t as bad as it seemed. The team ran out of steam in its first game - at home against Port Adelaide and then failed miserably at Kardinia Park when despite winning the hit outs and clearances and making 73 inside 50 entries to 48, it was thrashed by 80 points. These figures are bizarre enough but the trend was already set for the season. The team could win the ball well enough out of the centre but conversion into goals was a problem while opposing teams had no problem with their own accuracy on the rebound. They managed to kick straight (a rare occurrence for the year) against Essendon in their third game but the Bombers were more accurate making it 0-3 for the Demons and a difficult start from which to recover as the injuries began to mount. The win against the Swans in Sydney was welcome but two more disappointing losses put the club in the danger zone. A couple of unconvincing victories against Hawthorn and Gold Coast provided some respite and a trip west looked promising for three quarters against the Eagles before another fade out put paid to the club’s hopes for the season. All the while, the injuries mounted - they were compounded not only in the number of players out but by the length of time out with their injuries. For most of the first half of the season, the Demons struggled with losses in their defensive half but after the mid season break for the bye, the club successively lost all of its key forwards and won only two more matches - against Fremantle and Carlton to limp home to a five win season and 17th place on the ladder. In the latter half of the year, the club tried a reshuffling of the assistant coaching panel but nothing could help as the team lost seven on end, albeit a number of the defeats could be regarded as honourable given the material Goodwin had to work with as the season rolled dismally to a close. Max Gawn and Clayton Oliver created history with a tie for the Keith “Bluey” Truscott Memorial Trophy. Co-skipper Jack Viney finished third and he was followed by James Harmes, Christian Petracca and Bayley Fritsch. With highly touted recruit Steven May hobbled by injury, it was left to a VFL player, Marty Hore to take the honours of best newcomer. Given the injury woes at the club, it’s not unsurprising that the Casey Demons also struggled although their ninth place finish was commendable in the circumstances where coach Jade Rawlings and later Sam Radford had so few players with AFL experience available to them. The AFLW team missed captain and star player Daisy Pearce on maternity grounds and also missed out on the finals under the weight of a massively skewed conference system. A surprise loss in the first game against the Dockers didn’t help. In the end, a big win against Adelaide was required to make the finals - a win that simply didn’t even look like eventuating. Karen Paxman, Elise O’Dea and Lauren Pearce were the pick of the squad. And so, as we enter a new decade, the club can look forward to a few acquisitions in the playing side, notably wingers Ed Langdon, Adam Tomlinson and forward Mitch Brown, the possibility of a rejuvenated Harley Bennell and a trio of youngsters from interstate. On the off field side, the experienced Alan Richardson comes onto the coaching panel and possibly the most important change in light of the fitness and injury woes of 2019 is the signing of fitness guru Burgess who is tasked with raising the sky back to the heights of 2018 ... and further.

That probably covers it Bbo.

Based on last year we need about 21 players to undergo very serious [censored] development

The Weird, has to go from an occasional contributor to dynamic KPF.

In

Young Neita will kneed developing. (sorry!)

Bradke. But we always knew that he was a long term project. Bedford would need to improve a hell of a lot on last year to get a game. Training reports have been positive though.

There’s a Demonland connection there because Redleg and I were his managers at the time (early 1979). Jonno, who kicked 70 goals for Prahran but was residentially tied to Carlton) was struggling in his early practice matches with the Blues and was named on the extended bench for a “probables” v “possibles” game which means he was most likely not in their best 40 after allowing for injuries etc. He was lucky to get a run because a couple of recruits from Bendigo didn’t make it down to Princess Park but he only had a few kicks in the first half and looked deflated at the main break ... then ... Jezza, who was a playing coach, pulled off the coaching move of his career by putting Jonno on a half forward flank and playing against him at the start of the the third quarter. Jonno kicked four goals for the term and, in the words of Springsteen, “that was all she wrote” - they were never going to clear him for any price (they wanted Robbie’s brother Tom Flower who had kicked 5 goals against Collingwood in the last game of 1978). We missed out on quite a few good players back in those days because we couldn’t match the professionalism and the commercial might of the big clubs like Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond. A decade earlier, we cleared a young Prahran player named Kevin Sheedy to the Tigers because Norm Smith didn’t think he was good enough and KB also came from that neck of the woods.

Drew Morphett was hard to beat. Always liked Beitzel, as well.

I’m in Macca!

Long sleeves, long grass and in the day of no written information availability, this blokes name passed gradually from the front seats up to the standing room in the outer................Barrie Vagg, Goulbourne Valley, i think.

I remember this time last year. I could not believe how many great players we had to choose a best 22 from. My hopes were slowly and excruciatingly dashed when it started to become apparent in late January and early February that those players who we were assured were merely a week away from full training, were in actual fact out for months. And months. Not a peep from the club, and that hurt too. Sorry to be a downer, I am still getting over it. Id prefer to wrap all our freshly minted '20 team all up in cotton wool till February... but then Id miss the training reports.

Post script - I think it was rather remiss of the Hun to not mention Jetta in the reasons our backline will improve. Provided he doesn't drop away as he ages, Nev would have to be right up there with the best small defenders in the comp and we missed him immensely last season. It could also be noted that we will miss some of the atletisim from Frost, but that could be more than compensated by a fit Steve May and the sounder ball movement that should result through having him and players like Jetta down back.

The better way to have phrased point No.1 is that at our 2018 best the MFC has show it's self capable of playing football that is well and truly capable of beating just about any side in the competition and that a return to that level of list fitness, system and confidence should have us right up there again. We are inherently a much better team than our 17th finish would suggest. If we are to improve significantly, then I think point No.2 has to be improved game plan and system. It will be a big test for Simon Goodwin and the coaches. If we don't improve in this area, then everything else falls down. I'm backing Goodwin to produce the goods. In 2018, he took us from a team that defended well, but struggled to attack to the highest scoring team in the comp. Perhaps there was an over correction towards attacking at the expense of defense and last year we frankly didn't have the troops and it all fell apart, but if Goodwin can coach that change in game style in one direction, I believe he can wind it back the other way as well. Everything about whom Goody was as a player and his various clean-outs of players who wouldn't commit to me says he has the fortitude and abilities to set expectations and get the team to two way run much better in 2020 - Langdon and Tomlinson should help in this regards as well. I initially thought Tomlinson could be a lot further down the list of reasons, but this realisation of how important he would be structurally, now makes me think where he is nominated relatively is about right. Point No.3 or 4 for me would be the age profile and continued natural development of list our with key mids like Oliver, Brayshaw, Trac, Harmes, ANB (perhaps Viney if he can maintain fitness) and other guys guys like Freitch, Salem and to some extent Weid/Petty. Sure some other clubs could also claim this, but I think with a fit list we are ahead of similar lists like St Kilda, Brisbane & Freo and I expect the age profiles of some clubs up the top like Geelong, WC and Collingwood will have them heading in the opposite direction. No.9, I would just have as generic 'wild card' factor. Into this I think you could lump a hoast of players like Jackson, Pickett, Rivers, AVB, Joel Smith, Bennell, Sparrow, Baker, Dunkley and perhaps KK. There is no certainly that any one of those players in particular will pop up and star, but I think there is a fairly high chance that at least one of them will. Again I think we have more in this category than other clubs due to a combination of frount loading the draft just gone and our annus horribilis 2019. I'd probably also add a No.10 point - Depth. Provided we can keep a fairly fit list up to Rd.1, having players like O Mac, Petty, Pruess, Brown, Hore, Spargo, Hannan, Lockhart, the Wagners and possibly Jordan, Chandler and Bedford as fringe/depth players is a lot better than I suspect a lot of other clubs have. Sure we looked fairly exposed when we needed to use alot of them all at once last year, but using them more so in isolation to plug holes and maintain selection pressure, I think they are all more than capable of doing a job and some could also develop and get better.

Gawn’s already been making his ongoing contribution, so he’s perhaps not really seen as a reason that they’d ‘spring back in 2020’, unless he takes his game to an even higher level this year, if that’s possible.

Yes I remember Peter Weekes kicking for goal with his individual style action. Thats a good list of players there Tarax!.I wish some of those had stayed on a season longer with the Dees but I guess they knew when it was time.

Happy New Year! Welcome to the twenties! May this be a more successful decade for the MFC.

Disregard Bamf's assessment of KK. A 2 game sample is not relevant snd IMO he is the one that has played overall the best football in his career of the two. In fact KK would play a traditional wingman's role better then Tommo and Zi still can't believe That Tommo has the pace. Expect him to be at Half Beck at some stage or 3rd talking in the Forward line for versatility. Upbeat about both if both are fit and well.

Great effort Phili with all the injuries they have had to clinch the division title is amazing. How good is Scott?

For the depraved mind E T.

Nice post, pf. Here's to the hope at the start of another new year - at least there seems to be just that fraction of depth available which may make us happy through another season. Best wishes to all.

Started the party early eh Fence? Happy new year everyone. One year closer to our next flag.....................................................................

Tomlinson. I see his role as a cut-out tall supporting outlet from the back half and offering contested marking power on the way back being really important to our structure.

Spot on Vagg. John Townsend suffered a serious knee injury after the 1965 season- My memory was it happened overseas in the USA in an exhibition game against Geelong- someone might correct me on this. Missed most of 1966-67 and he re-injured it twice. Ken Emselle missed most of 19068-9 with a serious knee injury

I don't think Liam's talent was wasted. He could have been Bob Pratt, Peter Hudson, and Ablett senior rolled into one and still would have struggled to make it due to matters nothing to do with football thrust upon him. AFL football was not in his destiny, unfortunately.

2 players without a lot in common so there's no point comparing them. Bit of an odd choice of players to pick out. Haven't seen Rivers in match sim or do much testing running yet so it's hard to get a read on him but my feeling is he'll need time to build a fitness base being a big and powerful kid. According to AFL draft central he did a 6.57 2km time trial which needs some work. And he's an aggressive kick which is good long term but short term means he might take time to adapt to the speed of AFL footy and the tight kicking windows. Given the damage that turning the ball over at half back leads to I don't think they'll want him playing early. His best footy will come when he's using his power to win contests and that takes a while to do when you go from playing against 18 year olds to elite men. I agree with others that it's hard to see standout attributes with Dunkley that make you want him in the side. But he was very comfortable at VFL level for a 19 year old, winning the ball, using it well and hitting the scoreboard. I've got my concerns that he ends up getting games as a rotation wing player and fails to impress, but if he can play a mix of half forward and mid he might contribute. Along with Sparrow and Jordon he's a young mid who should play well at Casey and push for games. It's hard to single any of those 3 out, but Dunkley does have the advantage of the most AFL experience so far.

Sounds like the MFC 2019 game plan.

A fine player for Essendon. I do remember his TV panel days..very softly spoken and came across as a real gentleman.

He proved himself in late 2018 with minimal preparation played 7 games 3 of them in the finals and held his own. He is ready to go in 2020 and is like a new recruit. Hard at the man and ball midfielder that can play forward and hopefully the injuries are behind him. A 37 game veteran that plays like a 200 gamer.

Could you imagine?! Thank fart for The Suns.

Indeed, dc. As a wise friend once told me: when your pecker stands up, your brain sits down.

Great bumper sticker this year!

All of our injuries were the reason Dunkley got a game, he’s depth at best. I agree re Rivers, I think he’ll push his way into the team early on.

Think they sent me the wrong pack?

Well today mine turned up and probably because I had been prepared by this thread I am happy. Yep little more than the membership card but I can remember that is not so long ago that is all you got. Will one of us not buy a membership without all the bibs and bobs of recent years? I seriously doubt it. For 2020 all I want is to win 12- 14 games and play finals everything else is superfluous.