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https://outline.com/68mPBt Should be a rule to use outline.com for articles that get posted

Anyway, we’re not going badly in the NRL -

If anyone thinks this is an issue, have a read of his response to Lyon. It’s exactly what others have been saying: he didn’t understand the required standard, he saw how behind he was and worked his arse off to catch up (and probably overdid it, ergo the first injury), and knows better for next year. With an “I didn’t see Garry at training much”, which gave me a chuckle. Like I said in another thread, if he turns up out of condition next pre-season it’s a different issue. For now, cut the guy some damn slack and stop looking for reasons to be upset. There’s enough actual reasons without inventing them.

Hindsight is wonderful but you need to look back a lot further than you are. Hawks dynasty was built on the 2001 and 04 drafts and topped up with Burgoyne Lake Hale and Mcevoy. Cats was the 99 and 2001 drafts. We are still paying for the poor drafting in the first 12 years of the noughties which killed our depth. Don't underestimate the importance of having a large amount of 8 to 10 + year AFL hardened players on your list Eagles - Kennedy Darling Shuey Hurn Yeo Hutchings Vardy Masten Schofield Reddan Shepherd Gaff Cripps and Jetta. Some of those players are very ordinary but have the bodies and experience to come in and fill a role allowing the youngster to flourish. It's why you see sides like Eagles Cats Hawks Swans and Pies bounce back so quickly after 2 to 3 years out of contention. The continous development of their lists and evolution of player depth every year. We are about 5 years into building what takes 8 to 10 to build into a long term powerhouse. That is why the injury list and drop off in form of experience is exposing our depth

Many complain about Lewis in his twilight but same posters mostly silent on Jones. Lewis is a far better leader and is still a better player. Ignoring the elephant in the room big time.

Agree that some certain poster have just carried on their usual dribble. For those that didnt watch I'll do a player by player assessment. Baker: Played like a bloke thats missed a fair chunk of the pre season. Rusty and was quite throughout the game. Did a really good chase and tackle right in front of Casey's bench and got good applause. Other then that he didn't do much. Needed the run. Bedford: Looked lively at times and certainly shows zip in and around the contests. He's next stage of development is hitting the score board. Felt like he got himself into good position at times but was ignored. Work rate was impressive. Something to work with. Chandler: The highlight for me. Chased, harrassed and hit the scoreboard. Has a very impressive left foot that didn't miss a target. Keeps this form up and he'll be playing in the seniors sooner then you think. Smith: Playing just his 2nd game since his injury, and looked good at times. Lead hard and tried to create a target but was double teamed at times. His work rate is exceptional. Another who needed the run. Jordan: Played half back and was fairly quite. Sparrow: Like Jordan he was another who was quite. Had 11 disposals for the game and just flashed in and out. His contested marking is very impressive for someone of his size. Keilty: A poor game. Played forward and ruck and had little to no influence. His best position is down back not forward. Stretch: BOG for me! Came onto the game in the 2nd qtr and immediately had a big impact. First time i have seen him use some genuine speed to break away from the stoppages. Was clean and really ran hard. I would bring him in for ANB and leave him in the 1s for a good block of 6 weeks and see what he has to offer. Has to be picked against Sydney. Maynard: Look, it was your typical inside midfielders game. He is someone who will get you your 20 plus disposal but has no hurt factor and will get exposed for lack of leg speed. Strong around the contests and played well. Petty: Played the first two qtrs then didn't see him after half time.. anyone know what happened?? Garlett: His stats say that he had a quite game, but it was his first game back since JLT Richmond. In saying that i must admit Garlett was one i thought who tried hard. Was harrassing and pressuring right until the final siren. It was not a good day for forwards but unfortunately there were a couple of times the footy just didn't bounce the right way to suit him where he would have gotten a goal from if the footy just bounced kindly to him. I honestly thought his work rate was right up there, but needed that run and i am backing him to play well next week.

How can you say that when you haven't seen the 2019 model Lewis? We had about 3 good players during the prelim, not sure why Lewis has to become "a main offender" when pretty much everyone offended that day. He can't do too much worse than some of the current 22 and his on-field leadership is sorely lacking.

And yet despite their poor standards and lack of training expectations, they have won 2 games and we have won 0.

The replacements in these instances always have either their break out game or their one hit wonder.

I don't think we overpaid for Lever at all. Awesome footballer, can not wait til hes back.

His biggest weapon is his dash and his long kicking from wing to the forward line. The guy makes space numerous times on the outer wing only to be ignored by our lack of switching. When the ball is eventually turned over he does a mad scramble back to the last line of defence in his usual terrier manner often finding himself out of position. He’s not the only defender struggling in what seems like disorganised chaos back there.

Lack of interest on field? This forum will make up just about anything to suit their argument. He rocked up unfit and then, owning his mistake, worked his backside off to rectify it. That's fact, and really the only one we know. Anything else is just hearsay.

Heard a quote of Bartel over the weekend. Applauded Fagan for 'teaching' Brisbane's backs to defend one-on-one as opposed to us, who have done the opposite. We have regularly played a +1 in Lewis defensively, and played zone. Again 6/6/6 has forced more one-on-ones in D50. I feel sorry for our backs, when the ball just gets slingshot out of our I50, with hardly any defensive spread we leave open easy dangerous options. I think also the pedantic back rules are going to kill Nev Jetta who relies on grappling to neutralise a contest. By the end of the year, he will have the most frees against, and goals by extension. No wonder we are so easy to score against. Tom Mc must play D50 until May (+/- Lever) return and settle in.

First let me say that I have confidence in our FD in this area. The only major blunder recently was Toumpas and there is no need to go into that again. We clearly have identified the contested beast as our main target and have done well in that respect. What I am concerned about is that type still appears our main aim. Many on here acknowledge our lack of pace, skill and small goal kicking forwards. Also another tall forward. I posted at the time that we should chase Schache and Finlayson, who were tall mobile players, who while not stars, would come cheaply and would be great Insurance for Hogan leaving and injuries or loss of form to the Mac’s or Frost/Weid.They incidentally kicked 9 goals between them in their latest game. They also were gettable cheaply, even though Finlayson stayed at the Giants. i am not posting this to blow my own trumpet as they still may fail long term but rather to highlight a somewhat blinkered approach to our needs. IMO we always needed pace, skill and small goal kicking forwards. Yes we took Bedford, but he is the only one that I can see we have and he is some time off, if he even makes it. Guys like McCarthy, Dahlhaus Lyons and Rohan, just as examples of recycled pacy skilful players are doing well at their new clubs . They are not champions but filled needs and didn't cost a lot. Shiel’s pace from the contest killed us on Friday. I just think we have erred in only targeting the contested beast at the expense of other types. I think the group we got in this season only has Bedford with real pace. I still maintain we are a slow, poorly skilled side and contested footy can’t be our only trick, though I acknowledge it’s importance. I just think we have an unbalanced list and it is hurting us.

A bucket of KFC and a loss like the past two weeks might give you a dose of crippling indigestion. I suggest you buy some kaopectate and keep a spew bag handy or be sure to keep the empty bucket.

One wonders who is teaching these people because it really isn’t that difficult to instill a basic plan. My gut feel is that they are completely confused by the system they are being asked to conform too.

May is 3 weeks into a 5 year contract yet people already calling it a failure. its a short sighted view imo. sure it hasn't started well, but there's plenty of time for him to make amends yet.

But why did he rock up unfit? no excuse from a Club Captain in my view Phone calls and emails could have sorted everything. The whole thing has been handled very badly on both sides. He injured himself in his first game, because his body wasn’t ready. We need defenders right now.

You've completely made up the bolded bits of your post.

We were not a quick team last year (or the year before) in terms of pure leg speed - what we did have (a lot of the times) was quick ball movement and superior skills. You cannot win 16 games without being strong in certain areas. When we lost games last year we often looked slow, laboured and devoid of skill. And we often had a fit of the fumbles and/or kicked poorly for goal (in those losses) We'd then often bounce back as if those losses were aberration moments. Again, 16 wins is 16 wins. What we've seen this year is a repeat of those poor moments of last year but this time around, it's happened 3 times in a row. As previously stated, we need a big lift right across the board (FD included) from our more experienced players and our best players. If that happens, we'll bounce back and we might even get on a roll. I get the impression with this group that 1 win can change everything. Previously, we'd bob up and get a win (albeit with a less talented list) and that would be the end of it.

So a tall forward has played 22 games in 3 years. How many games had Max played after 3 years? Different reasons, obviously. The key number is 22 games Don't know if hes worth 700 or if that's even true, but the people on here believing he's a spud or calling for him to be traded are pathetic

Like trying to herd cats.

Disagree entirely, If you rock up to a new club, especially when you are the big recruit and a former captain at 27 years of age you should know how to look after your body. The first thing you do when you get traded is talk to the fitness staff and set up a plan for your off season (the club can't tell you what to do because of the ALPA but I would expect a new recruit to want to set an example to his new teammates). When you give up pick 6 for an older player we don't have time for him to be learning how to be an AFL footballer, we could have gone to the draft and found someone to teach. The point Lyon and others have made, wasn't about if he was training his [censored] off in the pre season, it was questioning why a mature recruit is turning up out of shape.

It's Round 3 and we're chasing Casboult? FMD a month is a long time in football

Maybe they will start a 12 step program

For me, it's always been a matter of personnel not being able to execute the style of defence Goodwin is hoping for. Frost is not smart enough to know when to go, when to hold back, who to cover etc. He doesn't have a footballing brain. He is an athlete who is wildly inconsistent in all facets of the game. Oscar is the opposite. He is slow which stifles his positioning ability majorly, he lacks awareness and is super slow to react so he's not really the ideal candidate either. He doesn't have a single standout attribute as far as defending goes. Of course there are other issues. Goodwin's strange selection decisions don't help the back six form any sort of cohesion, trust or continuity in their playing. One week we have Hore on debut. Two weeks later it's Wagner taking his spot. The story hasn't changed in that sense since Goodwin took over. Backline is always a shambles. Hunt goes from backline to forwardline over the course of two games. Every great side have a solid 6 who know how each other play intimately and trust each other. When I see four players fly up for one spoil (including smalls like Jetta and Hibberd), it tells me that those guys have zero faith in Oscar or Frost getting the job done. I can't see us making any significant progression in that area until May and Lever have played at least 10 consecutive games together at AFL level. That's when Oscar can drop back to a really minimal third tall role if need be. That's when Jetta can get back to beating the best small forward an oppo have. It's when we'll see Hibberd return to a flank to provide that drive with his run and kicking. Etc etc. Everyone's roles will be simplified and confidence and structure will be restored. Until then, we'll continue to be wildly inconsistent as a back 6.

To call a trade bad after only one game in the seniors is more than a little bit crazy. Geezus, at least allow the bloke to get back on the park and find his feet in the team. If he plays poorly for a long time, then you might have a point, but at least wait until he proves one way or the other. Lever was rubbish when he first came into our team, and despite what some others thought, i wasn't particularly excited by what he bought to the side before his injury. He may well come back and be playing like he was for The Cows before this season is up. Our terrible start to the year has people angry and frustrated. We need to find some wins soon before this whole place goes feral.

well I too applaud the Lions. for getting a coach out of the Hawthorn system, instead of the Essendon one.

There are easier assignments than feeling sorry for O Mac and Frosty. Those two cause more heart burn than any others.

At Casey?

I don't think Pig is the smartest footballer going around. I've listened to a few interviews and been surprised. His approach is simple: mark or spoil, grab ball, run off opponent, long penetrating kick forward to team mate. It's an old fashioned approach that has worked reasonably well in the past. But 666 has not helped our defence. This year I've noticed he doesn't do the defensive reset very well. That is, quickly get back into position, keep within touch of his opponent, get the zone working again. So when his kick goes astray or the ball is knocked loose, usually under pressure, he's caught out and away the overlap goes.

IMO Hibberd's biggest problem so far this year has been his kicking. He's missing targets repeatedly. Because of how he plays (which is to take the game on and run off half-back), if he turns it over then he's usually out of position on the rebound. The more he turns it over, the more his opponent will hang back off him and benefit on the rebound. I don't want him to stop running and providing drive, but if he doesn't improve his kicking and start hitting targets then we're going to have a tough time.

Wild speculation

Spot on. If I had a major concern about our training - apart from the injuries - it would be that we did far less ball movement / decision making drills this year from what I saw. It was a lot of skill development ‘craft’ stuff, plus running, plus match simulation. I think we missed a step that we used to do a lot of under Roos which is drills that emphasise 2 way pressure and pressure release. Drills that teach players how to cover off opponents as a team and at the same time teach guys to release team mates in to space.

He’s fitter this year than previous. Had a good summer running up a group not in the lesser group. But he looks like a guy who used to have pace to beat opponents and now doesn’t. And it’s a fair point to say he plays his best footy as an attacking back and has to defend deeper because we don’t have anyone other than Jetta who can win a one on one. He isn’t getting space to balance up so is bombing the ball. He isn’t getting put in to space either because we don’t clear it wide with kicks or handballs. Some more talent around him and proper midfield defensive work should help but yeah he’s a concern

Well that's your opinion of of course you are entitled to it. My lack of hysteria on DL is not an indication I haven't fully assessed our situation. We are not a bottom 4 team. Agree we look shambolic right now, but teams don't just go from a prelim to a guaranteed bottom 4 finish after 3 rounds the following year. You opinion may have more potency with me if we had more data to go off right now, but the fact remains we are only up to round 4 and clearly have plenty of ability as a playing group. We just need to get going. Happy to reopen this dialogue with you at round 10.

Lewis is absolutely not the play he once was, but with no runners on the ground and our general lack of experience and leadership he may well be more important on the ground then ever.

We are a poor team and the players must take responsibility. If their not hungry enough or angry enough by now, then so be it. Footy sucks as a Melbourne supporter, false dawns are the fabric of this club.

I'm preparing myself for the challenge of winning the flag from eighth.

Jones is done im afraid.. he offers nothing at all, and the he set the scene on Friday night with the very first entrance into the 50 with along non descript bomb, because he is to slow to take the extra 2 steps and look a up and find a target.. it happens all the time. The problem is we wont drop him so we have to carry him as he has carried us for a very long time so it makes it even harder.. its the worst possible scenario for Goody. Can you drop a captain.. i dont think so, but when Lewis comes back in, we will be the slowest side in the comp. FACT. Imagine having Jones, Jetta, Lewis in your back half.

He needs to be recuperated, therefore.

AVB had runs on the board and his ability to get to the right places, his general decision making and finish is (or was) a fair way ahead of Maynard. Would like to see a few more games to see where Maynard is truly at, especially in a better performing team vs yesterday's shimozal

Seems like Pruess is the likely inclusion for McDonald who is in serious doubt due to his ankle. Stretch was BOG for me and has been playing really well at Casey the past few weeks so he deserves to be rewarded. Id bring him in for ANB who is just a potato. But due to Goody's love affair for him i would not be surprised if its KK who makes his way out. He's done nothing and another who just looks completely underdone. Looks like Petty was taken off and rested for the 2nd half of yesterday's game. He could come in for Oscar. Frost wont get dropped as he will likely go to Franklin.

Good luck anyone organising Oscar and Frost

I would go small at either end of the ground.. if TMac plays, it should be on a wing. Frost to stay, Omac to be dropped. I’d play Fritch back with Wagner as medium talls. Stretch in, would be my only change. Possibly Garlett if we have a need due to injury. list is as deep as the Clark rubber kids pool on special for $12.90

Grrr. I prefer it when the Casey games aren’t televised, so we can get the great reports from the handful of die-hards that go. The manic hyperbolic rambling of the match-day thread types drowns out all the actual proper information.

Oscar & Frost both played well on a number of occasions last year ... we did win 16 games. But in an ideal world both players are fighting for 1 (possible) spot this season. Lever & May playing would mean that Oscar and/or Frost become surplus to needs... and Oscar & Frost would know that too. And if we know that, they would too. Most of our good players (which doesn't include Oscar & Frost) are either terribly out of form or not available. There's your reason for our below par performances in a nutshell. Right now, both Oscar & Frost are being played because the other alternatives aren't much better or they're possibly worse ... so they play by default and we just have to put up with it until May & Lever become available. Replace them with who? 192cm types who aren't much chop anyway? Shuffling deckchairs. It is no different to any other year where we had any number of C & D graders being played because we had no other alternative but to play them. Depth players can shine but that usually only happens when the best 15 or so are shining. Paul Dear is a good example (Norm Smith medalist '91) What we need is our good players being available and playing well.

dysfunctional backline without leadership is easy to exploit. We miss Lewis more than people realise and of course it doesn't help having defenders that can't defend, or 3 of them fly for the same ball and leave Ess players out the back or have a brain in their head because they guard 'space' not players. Sure we don't have May and Lever but we didn't for most of last year as well.

Even a unfit and out of shape May is a good player. Just wait till he is firing. Don’t write the guy off, the dees will sort him out.

The guy we really seem to be missing is the one in the pink clothes who was always running around giving out good advice. "If you get between the ball and your opponent, defending is much easier" "Stand over there, somewhere near your opponent. It will help." "See how your opponent is always getting his hands on the ball? Now you try it." "Now try getting it to another Melbourne player. You can kick OR handpass it. Your choice! If you can get it to one who is on his own, that's even better." That guy was really good. I wonder what ever happened to him?