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Only ever got to see Barass play as a Blue or Vic rep. Two very different styles. Ron in effect would set out to impose himself on the game..Tulip just did. Ron purposely placed himself in the thick of it....the 'thick' just gravitated to Robbie..because it had to...or he'd open up an opposition quicker than Lechter. One outwardly very confident..the other im sure had as much belief but in a different fashion. Barass collected more silverware but its arguable he was better supported throughout his career by teams with many champions. Robbie....not as much support ? Ron the more accomplished of the two I dont think there's an argument there. Gee..a hard ask to rank them ? If i can just say Robbie Flower has always been my most favourite of Melbourne players. He epitomized to me what a true champion is. Ive seen a lot of football over many decades now. Tulip sits aloft in rare air. Im not sure who's the best Footballer, but to me Robert Flower is/was the best Demon I've ever had the privilege to see...indeed meet. He was as mild mannered as Clark Kent...but a Superman in Red and Blue. ( Funny really...Superman does wear Red and Blue? ) If only one....Tulip. A very good a nigh impossible question

The fat lady certainly knows how to sustain a long note.

IMO all premierships since say 1964 should be declared null and void

Tom Morris is not even on the list. won't happen ?

My view is diametrically opposed to yours. He's an incredibly difficult matchup for the opposition, because not only does he have courage in the air, he also has timing. Put simply, he has real ability in the air, which is a rare commodity. To complement this aerial ability he has speed, poise, nous and elite kicking skills. And as he gets stronger with more preseasons he can play an outside wing role Isaac Smith style. Their physical bios are almost identical. Although I'm not sure he'll have Smith's tank. For me, Fritsch is one of the least likely busts I can think of.

THE LAST FOUR MINUTES by Whispering Jack I watched the replay of Melbourne’s game against Essendon and, with the countdown clock ticking past four minutes, the Demons were coasting home with a lead of 49 points. A big percentage boosting win beckoned against a team that only had four clear days to recover from their Anzac Day blockbuster against Collingwood. However, in those last four minutes, they relaxed their grip on the Bombers and conceded three goals before Bayley Fritsch's late goal gave them a still comprehensive winning margin of 36 points. Across town and two and a half hours later, Richmond led Collingwood by 20 points with with four minutes left on the clock at the MCG. As they had done a few nights earlier on Anzac Day eve against the Demons, the Tigers turned on the turbo chargers and wasted the Magpies with a four goal burst to storm home to a 43 point victory. The difference between Richmond's final burst full of fist pumping energy and Melbourne's late game slowdown to a comfortable win is a reflection of why the Tigers are the reigning premiers and why they are currently favourites to repeat the dose in September and why the Demons are languishing in the bottom half of the table. The question for Simon Goodwin as his charges near the mark where a third of the season has elapsed is whether he can build them into a team capable of playing a ruthless, unrelenting brand of football for four quarters and still finish off their games showing no mercy to a beaten opponent. This is precisely what one would expect from a top four contender which is how many of the pundits viewed Melbourne six weeks ago. At first brush, Sunday's game against St Kilda presents an opportunity against a team that appears to be vulnerable but it would be a mistake to take the Saints lightly. After all, it was only two weeks ago that they held the highly rated GWS Giants to a pulsating draw at this venue after looking beaten midway through the final term. They dominated possession in those final four minutes and missed the chance to win the game when an attempt by Jake Carlisle (who had been sent forward late in the game) to mark close to goal with seconds to go was spoiled by Phil Davis. I'm not suggesting that the result of this match will necessarily be determined in the final 5% of game time, but if the attitude of the team is positive at the start and the effort is maintained to the very finish, then its hopes for the remainder of the season will be restored. THE GAME St Kilda v Melbourne at Etihad Stadium Sunday 6 May 2018 at 3.20pm HEAD TO HEAD Overall St Kilda 91 wins Melbourne 120 wins 1 drawn At Etihad Stadium St Kilda 8 wins Melbourne 4 wins Past five meetings St Kilda 3 wins Melbourne 2 wins The Coaches Richardson 0 wins Goodwin 2 wins MEDIA TV - Channel 7 Fox Sports3 live at 3.00pm RADIO - Triple M 3AW ABC ABC Grandstand THE LAST TIME THEY MET Melbourne 14.12.96 defeated St Kilda 10.12.72 at the MCG, Round 21, 2017 Melbourne dominated St Kilda for most of the match but has as happened so often with the team in recent times it led by as much as 40 points at one stage and almost allowed the lead slip out of its hands before a late rally saw it home. One of the highlights of the game was the return of Angus Brayshaw after a long absence with concussion issues and the dramatic moment when he clashed heads with an opponent and stood up undeterred by the incident. THE TEAMS ST KILDA B: Jarryn Geary, Nathan Brown, Shane Savage HB: Sam Gilbert, Jake Carlisle, Jimmy Webster ? Jack Newnes, Jack Steele, Maverick Weller HF: Luke Dunsta n, Paddy McCartin, Jack Billings F: Jade Gresham, Tim Membrey, Ben Long Foll: Tom Hickey, Sebastian Ross, Jack Steven I/C: David Armitage, Hunter Clark, Nick Coffield, Rowan Marshall Emg: Josh Battle, Ben Paton, Jack Sinclair, Brandon White In: David Armitage, H unter Clark, Rowan Marshall Out: Blake Acres (managed), Jack Sinclair (omitted), Brandon White (omitted) MELBOURNE B: Michael Hibberd, Oscar McDonald, Neville Jetta HB: Angus Brayshaw, Jake Lever, Jayden Hunt ? Jordan Lewis, Nathan Jones, Dom Tyson HF: Mitch Hannan, Jesse Hogan, Jake Melksham F: Sam Weideman, Tom McDonald, Christian Petracca Foll: Max Gawn, Bernie Vince, Clayton Oliver I/C: Bayley Fritsch, James Harmes, Alex Neal-Bullen, Charlie Spargo Emg: Jeff Garlett, Camero n Pedersen, Tim Smith, Josh Wagner In: Christian Petracca Out: Christian Salem (thumb) MARCHING IN The two sides doing battle this week at Etihad Stadium are the lost souls of our game. They last tasted premiership glory more than half a century ago and in St Kilda’s case, it was the only taste. In recent years, they have been tracking each other in what have until now, been vain attempts to make the finals in order to enable an attack on their long and painful premiership droughts. This year looks as another disappointment for both of them as inconsistency and poor form have marred their starts to the season. In assessing the two sides, Melbourne appears to be stronger on paper. I say it every week but the presence of Max Gawn in the ruck should, by itself, give its emerging and varied midfield an edge. Jesse Hogan once kicked seven goals in a losing team against St Kilda. Two years later, there is no reason not to expect another bag except for the fact that he isn’t always played near the goal front and also ... he, along with Christian Petracca, are still under injury clouds at the end of the week. I was going to give St Kilda some brownie points over that recent drawn game with the GWS Giants at Etihad Stadium because I have hitherto rated highly the AFL’s artificial creation but later events have caused a change in my thinking. The Giants aren’t as good as I thought and th e Saints certainly aren’t much good. If they beat the Demons in Round 7 then it would be a fatal blow for the aspirations of Simon Goodwin and his team. They should be guided by the years of punishment they suffered at the hands of St Kilda over recent years with a couple of reversals at this very ground coming to mind. Like Round 11, 2015 when Leigh Montagna ran into an open goal in the dying seconds to rob them of victory. It won’t happen this time. I’m tipping Melbourne to come marching in by 37 points at the end.

My son was coached by Brendan McCarthy and I was disappointed that my son had had a few goals kicked on him. He said forwards will kick goals that's what they do, if not one another will pop up, it is the nature of the game. He was not worried that the forward had kicked a few goals at all, provided that they did not come from repeated silly mistakes. I think Oscar ticks all the boxes, I think he plays as asked and does his best. Sometimes he makes a mistake, who doesn't? Gawn makes mistakes, Hogan makes mistakes, Dangerfield makes heaps of them, they just look worse in front of the opposition goals. I think Oscar is on the way to becoming an AA defender.

As a forward Howe was very one dimensional. See ball and launch. That's pretty much it. When you're that predictable a defender can take measures to counteract it. Blocking, unbalancing him in his run-up, jumping in front of him. It didn't always work but most defenders had him figured out well enough to diminish his impact as a forward. He was never great on the ground as a forward. While its a small sample, Fritsch has shown that he assesses each contest & then decides what he needs to do. Sometimes he flies for the mark, sometimes flies to spoil (that spoil down to front & square Spargo was deliberate & brilliant), sometimes he stays down behind the pack, other times he tries to get to the front. The kid has footy smarts and is multi-dimensional. When he improves his strength and tank he will be very hard to match up on. At Melbourne Howe was developing into a very good half back. At Collingwood he has become consistently a very, very good half back. There's a bit of irony here. I believe that Fritsch will end up playing exactly the role that Howe went to Collingwood to play. And that ain;t half back

What I love about Fritter and Spargo is that they are both natural footballers Makes them effective and easy to coach They don't hesitate like Tyson etc all they play instinctive footy and it is great to watch We need more like them rather than the schoolboy everybody chase the ball overcommit roost the ball types that we have . Hopefully their teammates may learn something from these two and lose the auto responses that they currently display Very very refreshing

For the Tmac non believers, in case there's still a few of you lurking out there: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-05-02/big-macs-back-stats-highlight-demons-mcdonald-flexibility#/

The role Bull is playing seems to be less a KPF and more for tackling pressure and on the ground. I think we could really use that in our forward line. Its just a bonus he has a great mark and kick for goal going for him.

I guess you had to be there rjay. I clearly remember turning to bro at the game (rnd 3 2007 MCG) when both teams ran out before the bounce and making a major point about how much beef/muscle they had added as a team compared to 2006. He was in full agreement. Obviously this was way before the Essendrug scandal or any notion of 'the weapon' connection.

He'll finish around 8-11th in the BnF. Will play enough games to get high votes, but early poor games struggled. The last two weeks he has been great, and it is clear how much he reads the play and helps direct things. I expect he'll finish strongly. Definitely leading him at the moment: Gawn, Jones, Hogan, Oscar, Hibberd, Salem, Petracca Around the mark: Jetta, Oliver, ANB, Vince, Lewis, Wagner Others who may come home: TMac, Viney, Hunt, Brayshaw

Worth watching again just to see Jack Viney in action

Just watched the replay and saw Spargo having a go at Goddard again in the context of the match. Whatever you think of Goddard he is a 300 gamer, former captain of his club and dual All Australian player. For Spargo, the smallest bloke on the field but, more importantly, a first gamer to push Jones aside so he could get a better purchase on Goddard I found extraordinary. The kid has chutzpah. It made me laugh..

All these speculations about the way the coaches are going to evolve our way out of the problem make the assumption that the new strategies are going to make for more attractive footy. I think they won't. They'll still involve crowds of players surrounding the ball, flopping it between them randomly like a chip being chased by seagulls, until one random movement gets it far enough away from the pack that a player has enough time to throw the ball on his boot and gain space and time. then the pack forms again, repeat. The coaches don't have the interest of the game in mind the way we do. They manipulate the rules to get in the W column, and hang the look of the game. It goes all the way back to Norm Smith having Brian Dixon kick out of bounds all the time. Leading to the new rule "out on the full". And it goes probably further back than that. (And of course the AFL put two coaches on their new super panel of experts, and NO FANS.) The only thing that has alleviated this in recent times when when the AFL capped interchange. Then we stopped seeing groups of players dashing on and off in relays, as if the game was combined rugby and track and field. We stopped seeing huge packs around the ball. But then teams got the fitness levels even higher, and we're back to Australian Rules Rugby again. Get rid of interchange or severely limit it. Ten per team per quarter, and they can't be banked. Use them or lose them. TLDNR: coaches can't be trusted with the future of the game. Interchange is the problem.

Tim Smith is incredibly vanilla. I don't care if he is playing midfield. Who does he replace in there from last week (remembering Salem played off half back)?

You honestly cannot be serious. A howler? You honestly think he made errors in that video? No i don't believe it, you must be having a lend. In no way can Oscar be blamed for that goal. No way. If you watch this video from the 14 second mark you will see that the culprit is initially Oliver for coughing up the ball on the wing, then the midfield for allowing an easy handball to Zaharakis who is all by himself in the corridor and is allowed to take a few steps and under no pressure boot the ball 50 metres to Smiths advantage over the back. And when Zharakis kicks it Oscar is about 10 -15 metres from the spot where it is marked and the same distance parallel from Smith. he had no chance to cut that off. He did pretty well to get back actually. I can't make out the dees player on the half back flank but whoever it is makes no effort to pressure Zaharakis, for instance by diving to smother. Pathetic and the an example of the very thing that causes us to leak goals. Though some still prefer to blame defender in such scenarios as if it is still 1992 and the zone hasn't been invented and only a handful of players players get multiple tackles. But you think Oscar made a howler? Beggars belief. But hilariously provides a concrete example to illistrate my point about confirmation bias.

When played deep opposition defenders would block his run ...which is what you are talking about. ..but he would pack up shop and do nothing to counter this and was done for the day. When played up the ground he was just a lazy footballer who would pick and chose when to go. He's grown up a lot at C/wood as a defender where Roos identified was his best position. He's not lazy now and works harder. Our man Fritsch works a lot harder to make position than Howe did and is a much better field kick and kick for goal. I don't think you can compare the 2 really 'Chaz', although I get where you are coming from.

I heard Mitch interviewed on 774 after the Essendon game. He spoke very well, in fact he’s a good spokesman for the club.

Couldnt agree more Macca. Ever since we started using it I wish they`d keep playing it til the end or at least a few mins more. Save `Its a Grand Ol Flag` for after we win, the only time it should be heard!

I quite like Hells Bells. One thing I will say though is that I hate it cutting to our club theme song as they hit the banner. The Grand Old Flag should only be heard when we win.

this'll pump em up. also, the song as my body goes up in smoke at the crematorium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mML2fPec7xU

I am loving the stats pro tool on AFL.com. Fantastic innovation. Watched Hannan's involvements and he was really influential. They have video of every time a player is involved in the play - whether that be free kick against, a spoil, a marking contest, goals, one on ones, one per-centers, kicks, etc etc. Had to laugh. Oscars package didn't include the Smith goal, presumably because it wasn't defined as an involvement. But apparently Smiths's goals was Oscar's fault.

Funny you should say that. I heard a fella on SEN radio yesterday arvo (a professor of biomechanics or some such) that has been advising the AFL for years on issues related to interchange numbers and a fatigue. Really interesting. He made the point that with all the congestion and the ball being trapped in forward lines players are in fact resting on the ground more now than when the interchange cap first came in. He also mad the point that the fitness of the players has out paced the impact of reduced interchanges. He said he would go to 40 but cautioned that the impact of going to 40 in terms of players fatigue would be short lived. I actually don't mind the congestion and intensity.

Good get. More from that article: Hardwick lauded Rance as perhaps the best one-on-one player in the AFL, but also acknowledged that the defender’s occasional costly brain fades, among others from teammates, was an area the Tigers needed to address if they were to improve. Rance limited the influence of Saints skipper Nick Riewoldt (one goal) and collected 19 disposals himself to be one of the best players afield. However, one passage of play summed up the Rance package. Late in the last quarter, he beat Riewoldt in another duel deep in defence only to send a short pass straight into the arms of Saints substitute Darren Minchington, who slotted his second goal. It was another inexplicable "Alex Rance Moment". Alex is an outstanding athlete as well but the decision-making under duress when you're tired, (he) comes a little bit undone. "You've got to take the good with the bad (with Rance). "I'm going to put a huge wrap on the bloke – I don't think there's a better one-on-one player in the comp at the moment than Alex. He wins the majority of his contests. The other stuff we'll probably take now and then, but I think he's a great talent." That article was written in June 2014. Rance was 24, nearly 25 years old at that point. Oscar has just turned 22.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-06-28/no-room-for-rance-moments "You don't normally watch the opposition but I was watching Nick Riewoldt – the work-rate he puts in, he just puts his (opponents) into the ground. Alex is an outstanding athlete as well but the decision-making under duress when you're tired, (he) comes a little bit undone."You've got to take the good with the bad (with Rance)." Damian Hardwick or

Guys that make stupid mistakes aren't AA defenders. Yes, you can get away with it in the midfield but you have to account for your field position when making decisions. He has terrible footy IQ. Thankfully he doesn't cross goals like he used to but like I said in a previous post he doesn't know when to rush it and when to play the boundary. He doesn't understand the momentum of games. He doesn't have awareness for whats around him. The only positive is that I've barely noticed OMac this year which is only a good thing considering the horrific things he can do.

I dunno if Geelong did or didn't drug up. But if it hadn't been for the ACC tipping off ASADA, we would now be talking about EFC's drug scandal the way we're talking about Geelong's. IE, not. The AFL broom and carpet were ready and willing but the game got away from them.

With "Essendon's Friend" (Slobbo) and Gerard "there is no controversial subject too soft for me to shy away from" Twatley, it is only to be expected. Whately tried to pour cold water on the EFC drug thing when it came out, and joined in the attacks on ASADA. And when it comes to horse racing, he seems to live in a fantasy world of majestic foam flecked stallions and thrilling thundering hooves. And does not want to know that there is an enormous underbelly. Fair dinkum he must sleep with the light on.

'I had no idea what I was selling, I just knew it cured cancer.'

Agree. The other thing I like about Fritsch is that he's got so much development left in him. Like Oliver he took a slightly different path to the big time compared to most players on AFL lists and hasn't been as professional for as long as some others his age. Once he develops physically, both with his tank and upper body, and also gets used to the game plan and being in AFL environment he becomes a seriously damaging player for us. This is opposite to someone like Billy Stretch who has basically lived the life of a professional footballer since he was 16 with access to far better coaches, programs and facilities. I still think Billy has a place on our list going forward but there's not nearly as much upside with him as with Fritsch.

Some only see what they want to see no matter what the reality is Jnr. Looks like this is his break out year though and settling in to his role down back. Very much a keeper now (who else do we have for this one on one role!) but also has the odd moment here and there that leaves me scratching my head. Only 43 games also which means there's so much learning and football ahead. Can only get better. The least of our worries down back right now.

There's merit to both sides of the argument. In the past, Oscar was rightly criticised for some bog ordinary efforts and performances. But that's going to come when a club decides to play a 20 year old bean pole as a key defender at AFL level rather than trade for a stop-gap in order to let Oscar develop for a couple of years at VFL level. Turns out we didn't opt to go down that path and maybe the MFC knew there'd be some bumps along the way, but he'd develop quicker at AFL lever. To date, it's clearly worked. He's been super solid so far this year, not without the odd-brain fade. I think part of why posters like Binman and others become enamoured with pieces of play that one would term 'elementary' is because there was a period of time where he was not only getting beaten easily one-on-one, but he was missing spoils completely, getting caught holding the ball, getting out-positioned too easily and making really dumb decisions whether in the contest or not. When a player is doing all of those things on a regular basis, he is going to cop criticism. It's fair. Now that he's not doing that, we're hearing that he's "improved out of sight", when really, it's just that he's eradicated so many brain fades from his game. He is now competing strongly and is more reliable and consistent in the contest as a key defender. He is good with ball in hand and he is playing with more confidence. All positives. Against Roughhead, I thought that's when we saw the best of him this year with his ability to take intercept marks and out-position Roughie thanks to dodgy kicks on a few occasions. That's now his next stage of development. Turn some of those one-on-ones into genuine wins by using his body and either taking strong intercept marks or killing the ball with conviction. That's when we'll really see the signs of a high quality key defender. I'm not convinced yet, but the signs are positive so far. Oscar has been a positive in a disappointing start to the season for the MFC.

One of Hird's assistant coaches at the time is now our senior coach...just saying... In the Bigger Boardroom of our State the two highest public office bearers are die hard Essendon supporters. And I recall a shady character 'convincing' witnesses not to show up at the ASADA hearing. And another anonymous character paid Hird's very hefty legal bills/damages. So the tentacles of possible influence extend far and wide.

i've already heard one sports journalist blame his demise on the "unfair" accusations of the bummers supplements "persecution" (words to that effect) expect a lot of the "industry" to rally around and make sympathetic excuses for him gil will continue to flummox and make babbling sounds should be lots of opportunity for the sports journos to endlessly dissect it for months....without really saying anything more popcorn time

The Weed has to stay in. If he gets his confidence up and starts to feel more comfortable he will be a massive asset. The 2 contested marks he took in the last qtr against Essendon is just a glimpse of what he might be capable of.

No, he plays for Port now, geez, I wish people would just get over him!

I don't know if this has been mentioned in another thread but the crowd size Richmond vs Collingwood was 72,000 on a lovely Melbourne afternoon with both teams supporters at their feral best,hardly a mention whereas our Anzac eve match on a drizzly night of 77,000 was counted as disappointing.

I thought these two were now mids/wing ? ?

Absolutely.

I hate the filth ...

I'm not too fussed about it, though it is definitely daft. Fact is, Collingwood are getting the condescending pat on the head for trying while we are getting the 'come on you can do better'. Kind of how the football world should be.

Tom Morris reporting he wants to play v Suns.

Crocodile ,Shark and Snake pretty unpleasant also

No doubt Collingwood is playing slightly above expectations but I am still confident that the season will bring joy for us all in that respect.

We don’t bring chalk platters to the footy Red

Happy to be ignored by the media. We don't handle praise well. The less the better.

Saty as a friend, could I suggest you leave the last line out of your posts. It is the line that constantly riles so many on here and starts the petty arguments and the rest of your post is informative and sensible. I don't like seeing you attacked on here, as you are a nice bloke, a great Dees supporter and you attend training and pass on info which most of us love to read, just go easy on that last line it is irksome to many. PS. I see I got in one post too late as it has started again.