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We are getting picky at Demonland. Andrew Gaff not good enough for us? Wow. Perfect age, provides what we desperately need, averages 29 possessions a game this year for WCE, lovely kick, runs all day, good decision maker and durable. Nah, who needs that? I love him at the Demons, would be one of our best 10 players.

Wasn't unhappy enough for me. I wanted tears

Not interested in getting into a ping pong game with you but I find it interesting that you of all posters are questioning his year given the way you carry on about the countless players on our list both past and present who either regress or never even get close to reaching the level of footy that Gaff has reached. For all the excuses/variables/other contributing factors etc you come up with for our own players, it would seem only fair that you'd allow the same leniency for Gaff this year. Having said all that, his averages are only marginally less than last year's. See here: http://finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=2079 Last year he wasn't in the top 10 for the AFLCA votes either. I don't know why that's your favourite. I don't really care that he didn't feature in the top 10. The accolades he received from his own club, the panel that choose the AA and the fact he was equal 4th in the Charlie prove that he's quality. Shuey, Priddis and Kennedy all would have had a fair chunk of votes in the AFLCA. It's like saying Selwood underperformed last year because he didn't poll well in the Brownlow. Had Dangerfield not been at Geelong, Selwood would have obviously polled more votes. And as for the other top 5 Brownlow finishers from last year all taking off from where they left off, you're plainly wrong. Parker, Hannebery, Treloar and the Bont have all had down years compared to last. It may come as a surprise to you, but others including myself have an interest in many teams and individuals aside from the MFC which is why we enjoy talking about the possibility of a quality opposition player joining the club. Gaff is quality and is exactly the type of player that we're crying out for. Clearly you've spent too much time at Gosh's paddock to see that.

Update: he can fly.

I don't always agree with you STMJ but I 100% agree with this comment. Adding Gaff & Lever would propel us into top 4 calculations for next season without a doubt. He would be very valuable on a wing at the G.

As Paul Roos would say sometimes after games like last week it's best not to say anything straight away because anger and emotions can cloud your judgement and you may say things you regret. What I did like was not saying it was only 9 points in the end. Liked the statement The ladder doesn't lie and clearly we weren't good enough. No more words needed for me, it's time for action

He's fast aggressive, tall and keen to play for us. He'll play in our premiership team.

It was good to hear from the coach. As usual it was a measured approach but one that he obviously needed the time to analyse and put into words. I just hope like hell that this years lesson acts as an incredible catalyst for the whole FD and players. We need to move past the 'lost opportunity' phase and form the mindset of being a ruthless juggernaut for next season.

Quite surprised considering all the trade chatter. Well done to him and the club. He's shown a lot of potential in what is still a very young career.

Yes, an interesting comment. He said he knew it was a long year for the team to sustain our brand of football and from round 15 (vs Sydney) inconsistent performances increased (more losses and on average bigger losses). One wonders why, if he knew it was going to be difficult to sustain the game style for the whole year, he didn't amend aspects of it during the year or when it became obvious at round 15, especially with the level of injuries and a grueling fixture. I think he knows he missed a trick there somewhere. He has learnt a lot about himself this year and will be do a fair amount of soul searching. Will be the better for it.

A week on and now that I've come round and the anger has subsidised I honestly feel that missing the finals in some cruel, twisted, f%%ked up way we are better off in the long run missing out the way we did.. It hurts so much because we have been so starved of success & finals but this will be the springboard for this club and playing group to launch into an assault at a premiership. From the board to the coaches to the playing group we will all be better off for it.. Goodwin & the coaching staff will learn from this and go away as he said and will find new ways to get better, come up with innovations to take this club to the next level not only to make finals but to do some damage when we get there. For the players it will be a lesson that every little thing matters and you can't pick & choose when you want to put in effort, it has to be every training session, every game, every quarter, every contest... Everything! If we snuck into the 8, the way we were going we'd be one & done and the coaching staff & players may not have had this view and think everything's fine and we're on the right track, it'll just happen.. The lessons learnt from the ending of this season are invaluable

my finals booklet arrived today in the mail. That pulled the scab off again.

Not as yet but I will be seeing the doctor concerned on Friday. He's always loves a chat about the Dee's. Most of the other staff are Collingwood supporters so I think he has a soft spot for me. He also not an old gossip either so I trust what he says. If I hear anything further - I will definitely post it here.

tbh the notion of emailing them was to illustrate the irony. I know that there will be calls of...there all people... "leave the people alone" ( suggested imagery..."that Brittany vid " ) This is SUPPOSED to be a professionally run organisation. God knows it runs on a budget of MILLIONS.. not tuppence ha'ppenny . The difference often between success and failure is , and warning..it's a glib reference to an f'n obvious..... Attention to detail. The general worker at the MFC is only doing what they're instructed. So it stands to reason someone giving instructions is an idiot!!

Definitely achievable to land both Gaff and Lever and that would be a fantastic trade period. Two ready-made quality players that fill the two positions currently being held by underachievers. (Tyson and underdeveloped key backs). Both players are previous high draft picks and are serious quality with Lever being the same age as our core group of young talent which is really important. (Trac, Viney, Brayshaw, Hunt, Weed, Hoges, Oliver and Salem). So in that regard, I'm not really bothered about first round picks from this year and next year going out. It's more important for us to fill our side with ready made talent now as well as continue to add players in the 21-24 year old age bracket so that they all come through together. That's what will see us stay competitive for longer as a club and give us the best chance at a flag. I also believe the down hill skier comments are probably a bit misunderstood. West Coast have been perennial strugglers inside the contest for a while due to having so many outside runners. Gaff would benefit hugely from playing in a midfield group that excels at the contest. And on the G, his ability to run both ways can't be underestimated. One of the best gut runners in the league. Whilst his disposal isn't what I'd term damaging, he uses the ball really smartly by both hand and foot. Super smart player.

I'm calling it now. All AFL players that grew up supporting Melbourne are rightfully ours

People keep saying we should avoid Gaff because he is a downhill skier. I say let's go downhill skiing!

Vickery was every bit as bad as Mayne was for Collingwood this year. These guys were recruited on contracts with some serious coin attached. I think both are on at least $500k a season. Combined, they only played nine games in 2017 and booted a whopping four goals. When looking at these blunders, I certainly feel incredibly thankful for our recruiting staff and the superb job they've done rebuilding the club by getting these type of picks right. Guys like Hibberd (2017 All-Australian), Melksham (20+ goal second half of the season), Lewis (leadership and guidance), Vince (2015 Best & Fairest) and even someone like Daniel Cross (see Lewis) from a few years ago have been fantastic pick-ups for our club.

It means we continue to win more games every year

Equally I think people tend to overrate players from other teams, just because they are someone from another team with good stats or good highlights. Ask the average Joe from Collingwood what they think of one trick pony Howe now. They were creaming themselves when they first got him, cause all they saw of him was this guy taking massive speccies on the news each week We - the fans who watch him week in, week out - knew better, and knew that was basically all he did. My earlier anti Gaff comments were based on what I have read many Eagles fans saying about him. Many don't rate him and I'd be more inclined to listen to what they have to say about him as a player, both positive and negative, than people who don't see much of him. That said, Bombers fans were laughing at us for taking Melksham too, so not all know what they are on about. Anyway, for some balance, here is a little Gaff positivity for you, from HS two days ago... ============================ http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/the-best-endurance-players-in-the-afl-revealed/news-story/74a8c996525dc5b45cb04258c9ac680c SCULLY averages a league-high 16.6km per game and his standing as the game’s unrivalled endurance machine is laid bare by his ownership of the four highest distance totals this year, topped by a 18.3km effort against Collingwood in Round 8. (Gaff is second at 15.95km) WEST Coast winger Andrew Gaff is the most selfless runner, working back harder than any other player and covering the most ground (6.5km) when West Coast don’t have the ball The running men - 2017 averages Distance covered in a game Tom Scully (GWS) 16.62km Andrew Gaff (WC) 15.95km Lachie Whitfield (GWS) 15.60km Steele Sidebottom (Coll) 15.18km Isaac Smith (Haw) 15.13km Distance covered at high speed Tom Scully (GWS) 4.16km Bradley Hill (Frem) 3.43km Lachie Whitfield (GWS) 3.10km Jack Sinclair (StK) 3.08km Steele Sidebottom (Coll) 2.96km Distance covered in attack Tom Scully (GWS) 7.12km Lachie Whitfield (GWS) 6.51km Toby Greene (GWS) 6.41km Steele Sidebottom (Coll) 6.41km Andrew Gaff (WC) 6.37km Distance covered in defence Andrew Gaff (WC) 6.50km Nick Robertson (Bris) 6.44km Sam Gibson (NM) 6.35km Ethan Hughes (Frem) 6.34km Harris Andrews (Bris) 6.34km Sprints in a game Bradley Hill (Frem) 35.3 Tom Scully (GWS) 32.9 Jeff Garlett (Melb) 26.9 Jeremy Cameron (GWS) 26.6 Steven Motlop (Geel) 26.1 SOURCE: Champion Data * Minimum 10 games

I think the misconception is that people think we need to draft stars. I don't think we do. We need three more players who are just "starting 22" each week. Gaff and Lever would obviously be 2 and we could probably get a third somewhere. Actually, Lever and Gaff would be much higher up than we probably need but if they wanted to come to us happy days. We've got the top end talent coming. We need to push out the type of players like Harmes, Bugg, Hannan, ANB, Stretch. We need to force those players to become consistent contributors, and some will. We can then just draft talent and develop it properly. Gaff, Lever and one other and we will be serious contenders for 5 to 8 years.

He was an AA in 2015. Last year he was in the 44 man AA squad, finished 3rd in West Coast's BnF and came equal 4th in the Brownlow... I'm sorry but you simply can't compare him to Watts given their output to date. Gaff was a former pick 4 and is worth a first-rounder whichever way you look at it based on his individual accolades over the last couple of years as well as his draft number.

Pffft! Doctors are over-rated. Grandmothers. That's where the good oil is.

I'd offer Tyson for Gaff with a swap of latter picks to get it done.

Good boy frosty. The longer these guys are together as a team, the better we will be.

This is good news. Interesting comments by him, regarding him being frustrated that his form had dipped at the wrong time and he wasn't able to pull it round sufficiently in the 2s in time for the final rounds. I wonder if this means that, if we acquire Lever, TMac will be permanently forward? I certainly see upside to Frost - at his best, his intercept work is great and his sprint out of defence is at times exhilarating! Well done young man.

Casting Nasturtiums. I don't hate H. I reckon he has issues. I'm middle aged and white but I liked Barack Obama . I heard a woman on RRR yesterday state that she would "be comfortable" with no white people being around in London in 2066.The interviewer was white but laughed along as if this were something funny. This would be considered hate speech with any dispassionate look at the wording of the law.But she was "fighting"racism apparently. H has a history of borderline mental issues and perceived injustice is one of his narcissistic traits.

We'll miss by 0.2% next year, 0.1% the year after, ....

Well it's been a slow linear improvement so if the trend continues we should make the eight next season but we blew this prime chance already this season and arguably last season as well. He has a big job to sort out the mental demons.

I've got no idea because I don't know what WCE want. I'd have no hesitation trading this or next years first round pick. Picks are so overrated. There's no guarantee that you get a gun anywhere in the draft let alone above pick 10 which hopefully we'd have next year. Gaff is worth a lot to us because he's what we need and he's very good. Lever and Gaff and we are a genuine chance next year. Don't tell me that's not worth a fair bit. And he's got at least 5 years you'd think. If Gaff wants to come we'll do a deal regardless of what the Lever situation is.

They're not picky mate, they're nuffies. It's like the conversation last year about Hibberd, and Melksham the year before. They have an incredible ability to overrate a player wearing red and blue and pick holes in regular/established/gun players from BETTER teams. If people can't see the value in a hard-running, skilful wingman and how perfect a Gaff / Isaac Smith / Brad Hill / Stephen Hill type would compliment our contested bulls, we should be putting a quota on how much they can post on Demonland.

Has generally been pretty consistent week in week out for the last few years, so not sure whether the claims of Gaff vanishing when things get hot is particularly well founded. Whitfield has greater upside and more damaging by foot, but would be happy to get Gaff. http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115500/Andrew-GAFF

We were number 1 for disposals and number 10 in frees for. Where are those people saying that if you are first to the ball you win the frees?

And then get pilloried for spreading rumours without any substantiating evidence.

I know Jane personally and she certainly has a connection and told me. She posted elsewhere and said that Gaff wants in to Melb. Hope she will repost

That's the tale of a classic outside player. When the team stinks then they always look the worst. He can kick the pill and has good skills and we need this more than anything imo. We have enough bulls to win it but need some polish. Gaff, Lewis Taylor, Shaun Grigg, the Hill brothers, they're all the type of players I personally struggle to like running so wide to win the pill but they're all important. Right now Stretch and ANB are our two and Stretch seems to have gone backwards and ANB has improved but still isn't s great kick. Getting him in is a definite yes from me

Watched the doco, and thought I'd wait to read the actions on here before posting. The underlining message that HL was getting across was that there is an inherent racist and homophobic culture within Australian society. And his thoughts are justified when you read this thread. I've now totally divorced my thoughts of HL the Melbourne footballer with HL the human being. He is a complex but courageous person.

I would love to have Gaff, he is a gun. Would certainly prefer him to Lever as I see our midfield as a much bigger problem. 2018 draft is meant to be very strong, so I would be reluctant to trade any future picks. If we need to trade picks, they have to come from 2017.

I'd happily give up a first round pick for Gaff. We need a hard running outside mid to compliment our inside ball winners.

Had a decent start to the year and then a hot patch mid season that coincided with our best form of the year. His kicking was better and his marking was very much improved. Then started to struggle when the midfield pressure dropped off and also struggled in the games that the wind impacted. That was probably about the time he was trying to play for a big contract as well and that's not easy for a guy of limited experience. So I'm glad he signed on because I think the worst case scenario is he's handy depth and the best case scenario is he makes a leap and consistency comes and he's a very good player. His pace is a special attribute so if he gets the rest up to average he'll offer a lot. No idea if we get Lever but if we do then Lever is a 3rd tall for at least the next 2 years I think. So It's going to take a battle between Frost, Oscar, Keilty, (Tom - if not forward) and maybe another recruit to fight for the 2 key back spots. Some depth and pressure for spots will really help these guys develop instead of just a free pass in to the team each week.

I thought his loss of form, plus Hunts seemingly lack of impact running were a couple of reasons we seemed to lose momentum late in the season. Not sure if stats back up my perception of Hunt but that's how it seemed to me. It was more than just those guys losing impact, but their late season form contributed in some way I think.

Very lazy player who often finds himself in space due to the fact he doesn't follow a man wen out of possession. Has had 22 tackles and 15 1%s from 17 games this year. We often criticise Watts and Gartlett for their defensive efforts: Jack Watts 42 tackles from 16 games. Jeff Gartlett 74 tackles from 21 games.

If the Wiz has a kid that can play it will be for Melbourne. I have had a few beers with him one night. He regrets leaving the Dees and I'm sure would push his kid that way. He LOVES the Melbourne Football Club.

I know a lot of people comment that he is a downhill skier, but if you are not receiving the ball from your inside mids to feed it out to you.... you kinda look like a downhill skier don't you? I'd be very happy if the MFC were interested in getting Gaff back to Melbourne. Again whether we can satisfy the needs of Adelaide and West Coast if we are into Lever.

He was home schooled, almost finished top of his class I heard.

did someone just put the words Gaff and Hardness in the same sentence???

As stated by Jane in another post Gaff wants to return to Melbourne and his preference is MFC. Supporter and family links.

This is where he was played when he first joined the team. Was not pretty.

I always find that watching a documentary there is a need to balance off initial reactions to a story with what the editors wanted to achieve. H was aware of making public his issues with his previous Club would probably result in exactly what is being said here. He refrained from disclosing those issues whilst he was at MFC because he did not want the Club involved with what were his personal issues with Buckley and McGuire as at the time we were going through a tough time as a Club. I think he should be congratulated for that. If you had met and spoken with H you would understand that as others have said he was a complex but engrossing person to talk to. He has had obvious issues with race for many years and I don't think that we still do not really know from what basis this has come from. So what I am saying is I think we should cut him some slack because until you have walked in his shoes etc etc

^ Well said, rjay.