POSTGAME: Rd 12 vs Carlton

[Slartibartfast 15,761]

10 minutes ago, sue said:

Doubtless they do, but some external analysis and criticism by the 'independent' media might be in order too don't you think?  But we never see it. Why?

I hear comment on umpiring decisions by commentators all the time.  I see it on OTC and I imagine there is comment on 360 but I don't watch that.  I would imagine those involved in umpiring get council from independent people all the time - past umpires, past players and those involved at club level.  They would seek it because it is in everyone's best interest to get better.

Have you ever watched a game sure there were horribly incorrect decisions only to see you were wrong on the replay?  I have, countless times.  The Kossie HTB in front of the members one example.

I'm not suggesting there aren't mistakes, I'm not suggesting we shouldn't try and get better umpires but I don't think continual media review is the way to go.  I think our game is so much better since player abuse of umpires has been largely eliminated, I'm very cognizant of the difficulty of attracting umpires to the profession.  I don't think aggressive media review of umpires would help.

[Binmans PA 26,034]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:42 AM, Stiff Arm said:

Agree. As good as Kozzie is, he could be so much better if he cut out the late hits and clumsy high jump attempts. He was very quiet after quarter time 

We were essentially playing 1v1 20m from stationary situations, and a zone behind that and then 1v1s. That's how you beat Collingwood.

You take territory like we did against Carlton and do against most sides, and their only response is to try and slingshot out of there. 

We're very good at slowing sides down and making them go wide or short. Once they do that, if we play 1v1 20m from the stationary ball user, there's no way their short chipping and handball receive game gets very far.

With the best contested player in the comp to come back into our midfield (Collingwood don't have a player in the top 10, we have 2), the evolution of our system is set up to beat Collingwood.

If we bring close to our A game, I expect us to win comfortably. 

[Kozzie4PM 765]

12 hours ago, Watson11 said:

It’s hard to get to 10w after 11 rounds so full credit to Collingwood, but it’s not that uncommon. Has been done 15x over the last 20 seasons.  6 went on to be premiers. So more than likely pies won’t be premiers.

Interesting stats.

[sue 8,424]

20 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

... I don't think aggressive media review of umpires would help.

Your last sentence highlights where we differ and where you confuse the hard-done by individual umpire with the system they have to work in.   I'm not calling for the heads of individual umpires on plates and every decision they make to be analysed after the event in slow motion replays.    Nor for outraged criticism of individual decisions like supporters do when a free goes against them (which as you say the biased supporter often gets wrong).  

My point is that there seems to be no (or extremely little) serious discussion of how umpiring can be improved.  If that requires examination of examples of errors, then so be it.   Not pointing the finger at the umpire who made the decision, but as to what can be done to prevent/minimise errors in future.

Too much of the media is beholden to the AFL corporation, so I'm not holding my breath.

Personally I think it's about time the AFL paid the umps as professionals at rates similar to the better players. That will do a lot for your fears about lack of junior and country umpires.

(I'll also be surprised if the AFL releases a detailed analysis of to whether an extra umpire has improved things or if a fifth umpire is needed.)

[Kozzie4PM 765]

2 hours ago, Willmoy1947 said:

Would it be in the interests of the League to financially entice retired players to take up Umpiring?

I feel sure that if the necessary and generous benefits, along with special sponsored  publicity was directed this way, it would work. 

Maybe all these blokes might not like the ball being bounced by themselves instead so much....

I reckon the AFL should just double their pay across all levels. Heaps of people in their 30s and 40s struggling with a mortgage would give it a go if it was actually a decent earner at local level. I umpired when I was 15 cos the pay was great for a kid that age. Doesn't add up when you're a bit older.

[old55 21,288]

4 minutes ago, sue said:

Your last sentence highlights where we differ and where you confuse the hard-done by individual umpire with the system they have to work in.   I'm not calling for the heads of individual umpires on plates and every decision they make to be analysed after the event in slow motion replays.    Nor for outraged criticism of individual decisions like supporters do when a free goes against them (which as you say the biased supporter often gets wrong).  

My point is that there seems to be no (or extremely little) serious discussion of how umpiring can be improved.  If that requires examination of examples of errors, then so be it.   Not pointing the finger at the umpire who made the decision, but as to what can be done to prevent/minimise errors in future.

Too much of the media is beholden to the AFL corporation, so I'm not holding my breath.

Personally I think it's about time the AFL paid the umps as professionals at rates similar to the better players. That will do a lot for your fears about lack of junior and country umpires.

(I'll also be surprised if the AFL releases a detailed analysis of to whether an extra umpire has improved things or if a fifth umpire is needed.)

You're asking the media to do something in relation to umpiring that they can't even do in relation to game play.  Media analysis of AFL is pathetic all around.

[Demon Dynasty 15,404]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:54 AM, Demon17 said:

I said to my Blues Tragic friend at the game that you'll see Kozzie unsuccessfully attempt mark of the year, and successfully attempt goal of the year.   Delivered again. 

Would prefer two attempts at goal of the year

[Kozzie4PM 765]

3 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Would prefer two attempts at goal of the year

Kozzie is about 0/25 in his mark of the year attempts.

[Kozzie4PM 765]

41 minutes ago, A F said:

We were essentially playing 1v1 20m from stationary situations, and a zone behind that and then 1v1s. That's how you beat Collingwood.

You take territory like we did against Carlton and do against most sides, and their only response is to try and slingshot out of there. 

We're very good at slowing sides down and making them go wide or short. Once they do that, if we play 1v1 20m from the stationary ball user, there's no way their short chipping and handball receive game gets very far.

With the best contested player in the comp to come back into our midfield (Collingwood don't have a player in the top 10, we have 2), the evolution of our system is set up to beat Collingwood.

If we bring close to our A game, I expect us to win comfortably. 

This more or less what I reckon. Collingwood move the ball beautifully but we are a sublime defence and pressure team when we are at our best. I reckon we can put em out of business.

[Slartibartfast 15,761]

29 minutes ago, sue said:

Your last sentence highlights where we differ and where you confuse the hard-done by individual umpire with the system they have to work in.   I'm not calling for the heads of individual umpires on plates and every decision they make to be analysed after the event in slow motion replays.    Nor for outraged criticism of individual decisions like supporters do when a free goes against them (which as you say the biased supporter often gets wrong).  

My point is that there seems to be no (or extremely little) serious discussion of how umpiring can be improved.  If that requires examination of examples of errors, then so be it.   Not pointing the finger at the umpire who made the decision, but as to what can be done to prevent/minimise errors in future.

Too much of the media is beholden to the AFL corporation, so I'm not holding my breath.

Personally I think it's about time the AFL paid the umps as professionals at rates similar to the better players. That will do a lot for your fears about lack of junior and country umpires.

(I'll also be surprised if the AFL releases a detailed analysis of to whether an extra umpire has improved things or if a fifth umpire is needed.)

I think there would be ongoing detailed discussion on this very point, from the umpires and the AFL but we probably won't find common ground on that.  Old has addressed the other point I was going to make.

I agree that the AFL should probably provide more facilities to the umps and pay them more.  I remember reading an article last year about the conditions umpires face and thinking it was pretty disgraceful but I can't really remember the details.

I guess my point is media focus would be counter-productive.  There have to be better ways.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Slartibartfast

[sue 8,424]

.

Edited June 4, 2023 by sue

[sue 8,424]

Just now, sue said:

I agree a blow-by-blow media focus by the current media (which are too beholden to the AFL) is not a good idea.  But as for 'better ways', sadly I don't trust the AFL to do it either without pressure from outside.  Sadly the AFL thrives on the controversy of questionable decisions in all areas.  Independent reporting and analysis by serious journos would be a start.

ANyway we seem to be in the worng thread...

 

[Bay Riffin 1,413]

On 6/2/2023 at 11:02 PM, layzie said:

Did Tommo get soundly beaten by McKay? I don't think so. Harry kicked a checkside beauty and a ripper outside 50 but also flapped like a balloon for a dicey free. 

Harry had 9 marks and 5 inside 50 so nothing to sneeze at but Tommo wasn't that far off.

and the kick outside 50 went through due to a ridiculous free not awarded for McVee in the goal square (being held by the jumper) who had the advantage to mark or at least punch it through. Carl 22-13 free kicks all night they got a helping hand. 

[DEE fence 4,449]

My first live game since Carlton 2018, flew in Friday morning after a 31hr trip from West Africa arriving at 5.30am, (must admit was hoping for a replay of that game), so anyway I’m officially not a jinx. Rewatched the game at 5am this morning as still jet lagged and a few things stood out.

Goodwin is not wrong about getting our contested game back, there was a small period in the middle of the first where Carlton had a run on, but apart from that our structure held up well, and some areas of the defense where we had been lacking this year had clearly been addressed. Carlton was forced into kick/mark because our defense was set and was kept well all game. Extraordinary fitness to keep our zone going a whole game, the running efforts of the team are much more apparent live, and it takes a truckload of work, we didn’t win this because Carlton was bad, but because our guys played a perfect Melbourne game. For sure I would have loved better accuracy, but we owned the game. I think Goodwin deserves some praise for selection integrity and game plan.

My take aways:

That was a massive game from May, really rejoiced to see him play so well. Hard to split him and Trac for BOG. Really good time for he and Lever to find form together.

Petracca was tagging/standing Cripps in the 1st, Carlton tried to break this, putting a 2nd on Trac to try and give Cripps space (didn’t work) but while Cripps was Trac’s mark, he remained dedicated to the task, that clearly demonstrated a team first attitude and willingness to set a standard that I think had a positive affect across the group. Trac’s defensive presence in the first stopped Carlton’s early midfield drive into their forward 50, and over all that was a very Melbourne defensive game from him.

McVee is a jet and deserves a rising star, clinical in some big moments.

Poorest 1st half have seen from Gawn since 2014, loved that he kept fighting and he did exactly what I wanted with his bomb from 50, instead of laying it off. Huge heart to keep trying when clearly he is hampered by something ATM. Best Captain in the league right now. My voice is just recovering.

Hunter’s best game this year, very promising for me was his connection to team mates, it’s getting better each week. His value over Gus, is the speed of his decision making, it is elite and he seems to be able to create a sliver more of time for the receiving player than Gus does. That said Gus, is crazy brave and good at getting the ball out and heroic defensive efforts.

Best game so far from JVR, didn’t kick a bag of goals but played a nice hybrid role CHF and showed great decision making with his connection to others, loved his game. Have been able to observe growth in his games already, seems willing to learn.

Bailey did some great things and laid a couple of good tackles. He is a leopard in the f50, runs into space so well, so he didn’t shoot the lights out, not really worried, was happy with his improved defensive efforts.

Gus worked really bloody hard, Likewise Viney, thought he was a bit subdued compared to the last few weeks but then watching replay realized he was playing a role.

Smith, initially underwhelmed but then realized how mobile he was and definitely contributed to forward half defensive pressure, and upon reflection would keep him over TMac al least until Petty returns as a forward.

Tomlinson fought hard, wasn’t disgraced, played his role on an absolute Gorilla in McKay. I would say 4 goals from Curnow/McKay was par, if not a small win for us.

Rivers played his usual gut busting game, was sad he didn’t convert as been hoping he could be more of a defensive forward but didn’t seem likely on the day.

Grundy was running hard and definitely connects better with our midfielders than Max ATM.

Umpiring was evenly bad they maybe got 4 that were not there, but neither was Spargo’s free in front of goal. Comedy gold was Pickett facing off against Jacob Weitering (have changed my love to Sam Taylor from Jacob)

But most exciting for me is Salem’s game, he’s back in a big way, has found his step inside traffic and our second half of the season will be much better with him in the side, really very happy he is back. 

Spargo has come back well, no lingering concussion effects observable.

Got to see Kozzie live, so special I think he will light Collingwood up next week.

The Melbourne defensive wall will be back in full force, bring on Collingwood.

 

 

[DeeZone 7,708]

Well it was a good night at the G not to cold, pies were hot and fries crispy we arrived a bit earlier than usual. 7.50 start just to late, almost 50,000 was a tad disappointing given the way the media were pumping the Blues up. The lady next to me thought our players looked like they were on Valium early but we perked up and with Tomlinson in to take the heat our whole backline lifted and held sway all night. Tracc was imposing has quick hands and high footy IQ superb all round game, how good to have a fit Salo back. 59 inside 50’s to 39 seemed about right if we can get the forward 50 connection right and accuracy back to where it needs to be could have been a percentage booster. Judd and Roo are both very smart footballers they constantly surprise me. Mind you some of our early kicking killed our momentum and from some of our more experienced players. Never felt threatened all night but how good would it be to have Big Harry running around in our forward line, have to get Benny fully fit for our run at the finals, shoulda won by more but really enjoyed singing the song again. Pleasant trip home and watched the replay. Good night.!!

[jules7 684]

26 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

My first live game since Carlton 2018, flew in Friday morning after a 31hr trip from West Africa arriving at 5.30am, (must admit was hoping for a replay of that game), so anyway I’m officially not a jinx. Rewatched the game at 5am this morning as still jet lagged and a few things stood out.

Goodwin is not wrong about getting our contested game back, there was a small period in the middle of the first where Carlton had a run on, but apart from that our structure held up well, and some areas of the defense where we had been lacking this year had clearly been addressed. Carlton was forced into kick/mark because our defense was set and was kept well all game. Extraordinary fitness to keep our zone going a whole game, the running efforts of the team are much more apparent live, and it takes a truckload of work, we didn’t win this because Carlton was bad, but because our guys played a perfect Melbourne game. For sure I would have loved better accuracy, but we owned the game. I think Goodwin deserves some praise for selection integrity and game plan.

My take aways:

That was a massive game from May, really rejoiced to see him play so well. Hard to split him and Trac for BOG. Really good time for he and Lever to find form together.

Petracca was tagging/standing Cripps in the 1st, Carlton tried to break this, putting a 2nd on Trac to try and give Cripps space (didn’t work) but while Cripps was Trac’s mark, he remained dedicated to the task, that clearly demonstrated a team first attitude and willingness to set a standard that I think had a positive affect across the group. Trac’s defensive presence in the first stopped Carlton’s early midfield drive into their forward 50, and over all that was a very Melbourne defensive game from him.

McVee is a jet and deserves a rising star, clinical in some big moments.

Poorest 1st half have seen from Gawn since 2014, loved that he kept fighting and he did exactly what I wanted with his bomb from 50, instead of laying it off. Huge heart to keep trying when clearly he is hampered by something ATM. Best Captain in the league right now. My voice is just recovering.

Hunter’s best game this year, very promising for me was his connection to team mates, it’s getting better each week. His value over Gus, is the speed of his decision making, it is elite and he seems to be able to create a sliver more of time for the receiving player than Gus does. That said Gus, is crazy brave and good at getting the ball out and heroic defensive efforts.

Best game so far from JVR, didn’t kick a bag of goals but played a nice hybrid role CHF and showed great decision making with his connection to others, loved his game. Have been able to observe growth in his games already, seems willing to learn.

Bailey did some great things and laid a couple of good tackles. He is a leopard in the f50, runs into space so well, so he didn’t shoot the lights out, not really worried, was happy with his improved defensive efforts.

Gus worked really bloody hard, Likewise Viney, thought he was a bit subdued compared to the last few weeks but then watching replay realized he was playing a role.

Smith, initially underwhelmed but then realized how mobile he was and definitely contributed to forward half defensive pressure, and upon reflection would keep him over TMac al least until Petty returns as a forward.

Tomlinson fought hard, wasn’t disgraced, played his role on an absolute Gorilla in McKay. I would say 4 goals from Curnow/McKay was par, if not a small win for us.

Rivers played his usual gut busting game, was sad he didn’t convert as been hoping he could be more of a defensive forward but didn’t seem likely on the day.

Grundy was running hard and definitely connects better with our midfielders than Max ATM.

Umpiring was evenly bad they maybe got 4 that were not there, but neither was Spargo’s free in front of goal. Comedy gold was Pickett facing off against Jacob Weitering (have changed my love to Sam Taylor from Jacob)

But most exciting for me is Salem’s game, he’s back in a big way, has found his step inside traffic and our second half of the season will be much better with him in the side, really very happy he is back. 

Spargo has come back well, no lingering concussion effects observable.

Got to see Kozzie live, so special I think he will light Collingwood up next week.

The Melbourne defensive wall will be back in full force, bring on Collingwood.

 

 

DEE fence welcome back hope you get to see the Big Freeze game. Thanks for your wonderful summary of the game, it was fantastic!  

[The heart beats true 16,114]

Watched the replay in full this morning. Some observations…

Our kicking from set shots was the only thing that kept the game even remotely close. We dominated the game everywhere but on the scoreboard.

Van Rooyen is going to be an absolute gun. He looks really confident at this level now.

Tracc was a class above.

Sparrow played his best game for us for 18 months.

McVee is all class.

Tomlinson didn’t get killed by McKay, they sacrificed their entire forward structure to isolate him and exploit that option. If you think that Curnow and McKay kicked 3 between them you’d take that everyday.

I was at the G Friday night, but the commentary on TV did everything they could to make it seem like Carlton were in the game even when we had full control. We just didn’t finish off the work in front of goal.

There’s a bloke coming in next week who might be the best player we’ve had for 40 years.

Aside from that the sky is falling, obviously.

[spalding 1,118]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

And what would it achieve if there was a pile on in the media?

Country football is struggling to get umpires, abusive behaviour being the reason. Media pile on will just hinder the effort to get more involved.  You very well know that it’s an impossible game to umpire. Neutral observers will debate decisions having had the benefit of multiple replays. The umps have to make a decision in a split second. 
 

I stopped sitting with some mates because the majority of their focus was umpire related. They hate victim hood but at the footy any game we lose by less than 20 points is always because of the umps. 
 

We’ve got a great game but one of the characterises is that the rules require interpretation and are very had to apply. And our game is so much better when it is the focus and not the umps.  The umps don’t make mistakes on purpose just as players don’t. If we supported them rather than vilified them we might attract a greater pool from which to choose from and that might result in a greater depth of umpires and a better result for all concerned.  So I’d suggest we give the umpire bashing a rest for the good of the game. 

There’s a lot of validity in what you say. I get really frustrated with the umpiring at AFL level, and while I don’t swear or use threatening  or abusing language I get get loud and upset. I tell myself before every game not do it - but I’m too emotionally invested. So much so, that one of my kids either just laughs at me or tells me to shut up (particularly if I’m yelling at the TV)

I have 4 kids who play at various levels - Country footy, underage NAB AFLW, and now AFLW. I have seen a lot of umpiring.

at country level, it usually a couple of older ex-players who don’t move much but are clear with their decisions, explain them, and I have never seen too much angst on the ground. Generally there is often some disagreement, even sometimes some banter, but they just pay the obvious, and get on with it, and they seem respected by the players. The bigger issue is drunks in the crowd, and the odd nutcase who wants to hit people (usually in the seconds), but quite often it’s the rest of the players and officials at the clubs that deal with these clowns. 

at NAB underage league you can already see that the umpires are now in the “system”. It’s nearly like they are trying to get noticed (lots of look at me decisions and moments), and nearly like they get positive reinforcement for making game defining decisions at the end of close games. It happened so often, and in womens underage, it was a 50 metre penalty, or a holding the ball that had happened 20 times during the rest of the game but was never called until it was result changing.

I would really like to know the KPIs of the AFL umpiring department- and whether too much money is spent in head office where officials have to create a reason for their existence, and how this translates into what we see on the ground at AFL. I also think 4 umpires creates more confusion and variation in decision making, particularly as the umpires further away from the action seem to want to interject all the time.

[kev martin 9,064]

1 hour ago, Kozzie4PM said:

Kozzie is about 0/25 in his mark of the year attempts.

Kossie's timing is completely off, quite often doesn't even get hands to the ball, and consequently gets the "unrealistic" adjudication. On Friday he was getting in the way. Wish he would get it right, as he really gets up there and usually comes down like a cat. Otherwise, front and centre should be his role.

Edited June 4, 2023 by kev martin

[Flower Magic 688]

17 minutes ago, kev martin said:

Kossie's timing is completely off, quite often doesn't even get hands to the ball, and consequently gets the "unrealistic" adjudication. On Friday he was getting in the way. Wish he would get it right, as he really gets up there and usually comes down like a cat. Otherwise, front and centre should be his role.

I'll go further and say his attempts have become embarrassing and are hurting the team. Aren't small forwards supposed to stay down and grab the crumbs when the ball spills free? He should be dragged the next time he goes for a speccy and drops it (which he will).

[kev martin 9,064]

41 minutes ago, Flower Magic said:

He should be dragged the next time he goes for a speccy and drops it (which he will).

I have a feeling he has been given the freedom to "take it on", keeps him happy, and playing on the edge.

He'll have to start taking them, otherwise your strategy should displace that licence. 

On the Casey thread, a few were discussing selfish kicking goal acts by Fritta (the left foot dribble for goal, instead of a handball).

Kossie has a bit of self first about some actions.

Need our forward line finding a balance between, team first acts and the magic.

A few are team first all the time, ANB, TMac, JJ, JVR, and others do some magic, Trac, Fritta, Kossie, Chandler, Langdon (when near goal), and sometimes Harmes.

It isn't a backline problem, they are always as one unit.

It's a fine line between, ego, game lifting/winning acts and playing the percentages. I for one, cannot figure out the balance required. 

I am sure that the coaches are on it.

Edited June 4, 2023 by kev martin

[Dee*ceiving 876]

Kept Carlton to 44 points and really only 1 of their forwards looked likely to hit the scoreboard. 

We butchered enough finishes to cost us 3 goals and sloppiness through the midfield 3 more. We had to win and found a way. 

Defense was rock solid and midfield connection can and must improve. Carlton didn't make us pay for several howling turnovers. Turn the ball over in the corridor against the pies and our backline will be watching the ball go back over their heads through the big sticks. 

[Binmans PA 26,034]

On 6/3/2023 at 1:05 PM, Jaded No More said:

He’s really stood up (even more than normal), in the absence of Clarry. Reckon he’d be keen to have bestie back next week. 

Showed really great leadership the other night, did our Trac.

Was often pointing (not in a Brent Moloney sort of way though) and telling others when to slow the game down.

Loved his game.

[Binmans PA 26,034]

21 hours ago, Orion said:

I'd be pretty happy sitting on top of the ladder with one loss

Were you happy 10 and zip last year?

I bet you weren't. I bet you had a good old whinge.

Our first 10 games last year were far superior to Collingwood's first 10 this year.

[Roost it far 6,036]

Let Kozzie go for the odd hanger, FFS the funs beaten out of everything these days. We handed control to accountants, lawyers and bankers and it ain’t supposed to be that way