2 hours ago, 58er said:

ADONSKI talk about turning the clock back !! We missed out but in retrospect we were the winners on all fronts Smith was more than useful for Cats but I believe our supporters in D/L have underrated Angus team contribution all year. I bet if you went back and examined the games of his opponents very few would have been in the best half dozen. 
Things  like spoiling a mark and  knocking the ball out of bounds in that process were fine many times as well as his tackling stopping firsts forward.

He in effect was another defender and attacked when he was in space. Yes he occasionally missed the mark with his kick but in Clubland  he was snd deserved his recognition snd team role.

If Angus does leave through FA with say 2 flags our succession plans of say Howes Rosman Jordon  Laurie or even Bowser or AMW maybe Oscar Baker if he excels given an opportunity. The cupboard is not exactly bare in prospects for our Members wing st the G.

BTW LUCIFER to suggest that Gus Granny performance  was a Cameo again vastly undervalued his game long commitment and excellence. Many in the Club Will say that is his best game ever for us ( most valuable and impactful snd rounded ) and I totally agree having a seat on the non members wing between half forward and wing on his side of the ground in the GF.

He was not far behind Trac Fritta Clarry/Salo as best in the top 5 players for us. Indeed your "cameo" referring to his third quarter was as good a quarter as played as he was in the thick of it before our run on and bang bang bang.

A very valued Clubman like his family a thoroughly decent and humble human being who would be much missed by the Demons faithful.

So good to see him get his rewards after his concussion struggles earlier in his career.

My comment was about Smith. Not sure what all the Angus stuff has to do with my comment about Smith.

I was thinking that if it came down to prioritising Brayshaw or Harmes, we’d clearly spend our money on Gus.

Only to find out Harmes still has 3 years left on his contract.

16 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I was thinking that if it came down to prioritising Brayshaw or Harmes, we’d clearly spend our money on Gus.

Only to find out Harmes still has 3 years left on his contract.

Harmes is irrelevant to this discussion because he's probably on a relatively modest contract. Brayshaw has had his big payday, so if he wants to test the open market, you are prioritising Brayshaw against players coming out of contract who will definitely seek bigger deals.

Half the team live at Brayshaws parents house. He is going nowhere.

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Genuine question:

Did Brayshaw get played as a defensive winger because we needed one, or because we needed somewhere to put Gus that wasn't in the middle and we'd tried every other option on the wing?

No doubt he played the defensive wing role really well for the most part in '21, but if we had a 2nd genuine gun winger would he have even been put there?

 

I think it’s a little of both. We needed the winger and Gus wasn’t going to be in the top 4/5 on ball options. He’s still too flat footed defensively in congestion to demand midfield time.

But Smith has also played a whole lot of half forward for both the Hawks and Geelong. It’s often more important to stretch the ground vertically than it is horizontally these days. And ANB was certainly out of favour too - more so than Gus.

Had we got Smith he might’ve started 50:50  half forward and wing, with Gus doing the same with possibly some versatility based on match ups. 

Neither Harmes not Hunt have the footy IQ for the role Gus plays. We tried Hunt and it didn't work.

27 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think it’s a little of both. We needed the winger and Gus wasn’t going to be in the top 4/5 on ball options. He’s still too flat footed defensively in congestion to demand midfield time.

But Smith has also played a whole lot of half forward for both the Hawks and Geelong. It’s often more important to stretch the ground vertically than it is horizontally these days. And ANB was certainly out of favour too - more so than Gus.

Had we got Smith he might’ve started 50:50  half forward and wing, with Gus doing the same with possibly some versatility based on match ups. 

I'm not comparing Gus to Smith as such, more just thinking about how the 'defensive winger' role came about for us. It ended up being an important part of our success, both for the defensive attributes (particularly for a team known for giving up scores from turnovers out of defence) and possibly for the 'cultural impact' where a big name like Brayshaw is seen sacrificing stats for the sake of the overall team performance.

And McDonald was training there too before injuries forced him forward. Bradshaw on the wing was, of course, down the list of desirable players for that role. He may want to back himself to take Harmes’ spot? 

Angus played an important role but please don’t let stats tell you a tall tale; Langdon was so dominant that teams avoided his wing at all costs. It was really quite something. Langdon is the superior winger and that’s not to be sneezed at; and if you are sneezing, you should probably head home.

If we are playing money ball, then Brayshaw has more value on the market playing in the midfield where he could become elite for the right team with the right fit, as opposed playing a handy defensive wing position ... downside is he is part of the fabric and culture we have built which is hard to value

22 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm not comparing Gus to Smith as such, more just thinking about how the 'defensive winger' role came about for us. It ended up being an important part of our success, both for the defensive attributes (particularly for a team known for giving up scores from turnovers out of defence) and possibly for the 'cultural impact' where a big name like Brayshaw is seen sacrificing stats for the sake of the overall team performance.

I’m not comparing them either. I think the coaches desperately want running machines with overhead marking ability. Hence Howes and Rosman. And Tomlinson. And even Fritsch in 2018. They’re searching for that complete winger.

And so I think the plan would’ve been to add Smith’s running capacity for some percentage of the game on the wing and to use someone like Gus or Harmes with a bit more overhead game at other times. With match ups, ground shape, opponents etc a factor. 

The whole ‘defensive winger’ thing is very overrated. Langdon is a defensive winger too, he just attacks more as well. And there’s times Gus holds back attacking or sucks far too deep defensively because he knows he can’t sprint both ways not purely as a role.

Its nice to have variety opposite Langdon but I see it more as Gus playing the wing in a way that suits his game and works for team rather than a defined role. If he could run like Langdon I can’t imagine the coaches would tell him just to hang back and play it safe, we’d use him as a dynamite two way runner if he could do it. 

Langdon was incredibly lucky and so stiff not to make the All Australian squad of 40 at least. His numbers and stats showed that he was one of the best wingman going around in the game.

Yes Brayshaw's performance on grand final was important, but Langdon was so consistent every game last year that opposition clubs were putting time and work into him. Langdons defensive Mark can not be underestimated. Some of his two way running was freakish.

Every club in the land would easily take Langdon over Brayshaw as a wingman. It would be sad to lose him from a cultural point of view, but on field he's easily replaceable from a positional point of view imo.

James Jordon for instance played purely as a winger against the Lions when Langdon was put with concussion. His heat map on the night showed how incredibly hard he worked back defensively. I thought that was a pretty underrated performance on the night and I remember thinking at the time that he filled in Langdons role seamlessly.

This was to go with his 411 metres gained mind you.

Edited February 20, 20223 yr by dazzledavey36

13 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

James Jordon for instance played purely as a winger against the Lions when Langdon was put with concussion. His heat map on the night showed how incredibly hard he worked back defensively. I thought that was a pretty underrated performance on the night and I remember thinking at the time that he filled in Langdons role seamlessly.

 

JJ played as the second main winger alongside Langdon against Port too. After Brayshaw got reassigned to predominantly half forward with some on ball minutes after his and the teams stinky effort against the Giants. 
 

I think the coaches would’ve had a pretty serious discussion about sticking with JJ in that spot. But Gus’s style does seem reasonably effective at messing with the Dogs game plan. And his experience and a bit more strength in finals type footy probably gave him the nod. 

11 hours ago, old dee said:

My comment was about Smith. Not sure what all the Angus stuff has to do with my comment about Smith.

OD

I directed clearly this reply to Adonski as he made the comment about us trying for  Smith again and as a result the whole reply was a Gus vs Smith post and how underrated Gus us and we have MOVED ON from trying to get a 34 yo winger that only the Aging Cats see value in.

we also have about 5 other players in the wings as recruits who  will challenge in 2023 if Gus did in fact leave for FA to another  Club.

 

As I remember it, we tried about 8 players unsuccessfully in the wing role prior to 2021 - including Harmes and Brayshaw! We then went after Smith, who agreed (in principle) to come to Melbourne, then reneged and went to Geelong on a shorter contract (suck a fat one Isaac!). Goodwin then asked if Brayshaw wanted play as an inside mid, or play in finals. Brayshaw then went all 'team first' and agreed, embracing the new role. The rest is magnificent history.

47 minutes ago, Roger Mellie said:

As I remember it, we tried about 8 players unsuccessfully in the wing role prior to 2021 - including Harmes and Brayshaw! We then went after Smith, who agreed (in principle) to come to Melbourne, then reneged and went to Geelong on a shorter contract (suck a fat one Isaac!). Goodwin then asked if Brayshaw wanted play as an inside mid, or play in finals. Brayshaw then went all 'team first' and agreed, embracing the new role. The rest is magnificent history.

Isaac Smith had his opportunity and blew it.

At the time I was disappointed but it worked out best for the Dees. Isaac has slowed up and is not the damaging player he was with the Hawks. 

He is a quality person but so is Angus. The latter also has footy nous and is considerably younger. And is now a premiership player with still more to play for. I hope we keep him. In a playing sense Angus may be replaceable but he has special qualities that we should try and retain. 

He has leadership written all over him. Of all the players who spoke after the final siren, he (for me) was the most impressive. Articulate and passionate and with commitment to team and club. Love what he brings to the club. 

Wouldn't begrudge Gus for choosing to leave for a bit more money and play more in the guts.

He has been a fantastic team member and integral in ending the drought.

Hopefully we can go back to back and if he does choose to leave he will be a two time premiership player.

At the end of the day if it came down to sending extra money on Gus or Jacko, I know who is more valuable.

So here is the thing, we supporters spend our time focussing on player's onfield abilities because that is as far as our involvement extends.  The thing about Angus is that he clearly sets the standards off the field through his group dymanic skills (starting fun training clubs, podcasts etc) his training expectations in general and the fantastic culture that he brings.  It should not be underestimated how valuable he is to the club in general.

Is there even a rumour of him looking elsewhere or of another club chasing him, if so I haven't heard it.

8 minutes ago, Salems Lot said:

So here is the thing, we supporters spend our time focussing on player's onfield abilities because that is as far as our involvement extends.  The thing about Angus is that he clearly sets the standards off the field through his group dymanic skills (starting fun training clubs, podcasts etc) his training expectations in general and the fantastic culture that he brings.  It should not be underestimated how valuable he is to the club in general.

I don't think anyone is doubting his off field work. I think you'll find most people will agree that he'll be more of a loss off field then he is on field. 

Footy can be a ruthless business and right now our windows of opportunity to win another flag is wide open now. Brayshaw got a significant pay rise off the back off his 2018 year playing as an inside mid. Right now he'd need to take a significant pay cut if we are wanting to fit in Jackson and Oliver. 

The on field discussion also comes into it. Overpaying a defensive winger is not something I want the club doing. Someone pointed out that he finished 14th in the best and fairest last year after playing every single game. Is that a sign that maybe the coaches didn't rate his on field performances as we thought? I think that's a significant way of explaining what the coaches thought of his year.

Also, I think history will tell you that when you're winning flags it's hard to keep all your good players together. Sometimes you need to make tough decisions to let go of a good player just so we can maintain the star factor within the team.

Losing Brayshaw would hurt indeed, but losing Clayton Oliver would be a bigger culture killer.

12 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

JJ played as the second main winger alongside Langdon against Port too. After Brayshaw got reassigned to predominantly half forward with some on ball minutes after his and the teams stinky effort against the Giants. 
 

I think the coaches would’ve had a pretty serious discussion about sticking with JJ in that spot. But Gus’s style does seem reasonably effective at messing with the Dogs game plan. And his experience and a bit more strength in finals type footy probably gave him the nod. 

Agree.

What it showed though that JJ was more then capable of playing that wing role.

He's ones of our most disciplined players alongside Tom Sparrow and I have no doubt Goody and Yze would like to see JJ on the outside as well.

30 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

Also, I think history will tell you that when you're winning flags it's hard to keep all your good players together. 

Losing Brayshaw would hurt indeed, but losing Clayton Oliver would be a bigger culture killer.

I disagree overall on the history since 2000.  Unless a player gets a Godfather offer like Buddy did, and well-deserved, then the Hawks, Tigers and especially Cats have set the template for sustarined success by the team staying together for the common good, but slightly less money.

Your'e right its hard - for the salary cap manager - but its a 2-way deal and the players collectively will take the dynasty approach IMO.  Otherwise we'll just be another flash-in-the-pan Dogs style success.  Pert won't stand for this outcome.

Gus can go for maybe 150K more than the Dees offer, then less 45c in the dollar tax, why would he.?

On 2/19/2022 at 7:06 PM, Demon Disciple said:

Not interested in bringing heaps more youth. Our window is wide open for multiple flags, we need to recruit for the now.

But to keep the window open there needs to be constant renewal.

19 hours ago, 58er said:

ADONSKI talk about turning the clock back !! We missed out but in retrospect we were the winners on all fronts Smith was more than useful for Cats but I believe our supporters in D/L have underrated Angus team contribution all year. I bet if you went back and examined the games of his opponents very few would have been in the best half dozen. 
Things  like spoiling a mark and  knocking the ball out of bounds in that process were fine many times as well as his tackling stopping firsts forward.

...........

And never ever forget his incredibly shrewd tactical "deliberate OOB" round 23 - knowing that the Cats would go down the line and some id1ot would smash to away for a 50 meter ..... who else would not have instead have tried to put it up near the goals. Brilliant work.  🤔

25 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

1. Right now he'd need to take a significant pay cut if we are wanting to fit in Jackson and Oliver. 

2. Overpaying a defensive winger is not something I want the club doing.

3. Sometimes you need to make tough decisions to let go of a good player just so we can maintain the star factor within the team.

Daz, I have questions about your 3 statements above that I have plucked from your post.

1. who says he’d need to take a significant pay cut to fit in Oli and Jacko? Is this a fact? Or have you just assumed / made this up? 
2. who says we are overpaying him, or would overpay him? Has the club or anyone else said or hinted at that? 
3. who says we need to make tough decisions about him? We don’t know why contract talks were put off. It could be for a number of reasons, including that the club may have delayed them till Jacko’s contract is settled, for example.
 

Your whole post is based on pure speculation - which may turn out to be right, or wrong. The thing is we do not know what is going on, and posts on this subject imo should reflect that, not speak as though basing their statements on fact. 
I have every confidence that the Club do what’s best for the team. And IMO Gus plays a very important part in the bonding and performance of this team. I don’t think he will be going anywhere. 

30 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

I disagree overall on the history since 2000.  Unless a player gets a Godfather offer like Buddy did, and well-deserved, then the Hawks, Tigers and especially Cats have set the template for sustarined success by the team staying together for the common good, but slightly less money.

Your'e right its hard - for the salary cap manager - but its a 2-way deal and the players collectively will take the dynasty approach IMO.  Otherwise we'll just be another flash-in-the-pan Dogs style success.  Pert won't stand for this outcome.

Gus can go for maybe 150K more than the Dees offer, then less 45c in the dollar tax, why would he.?

All 3 of those teams abruptly lost a top 2 playing in Ablett, Franklin and Rance.

Richmond did bring in Lynch and the Hawks Frawley and others though.

In terms of losing players the clearest comparison might be Richmond letting Ellis walk as a starting wingman. They’ve lost some others along the way like Markov, CCJ/Chol, Butler, Higgins.

If the gap between staying and going becomes a difference between 3x450 and 4x650 then it’s significant no matter the tax rate. I’m not an accountant but I believe players can set aside 10% of their wage for image rights, chuck in a bunch of other deductions and that tax bill can come right down. 

So we've got some saying that Brayshaw is just a defensive wingman ... that is just clearly the wrong type of appraisal

Many times he wins the ball in contests on the wing and then releases the ball forward ... often into the forward 50 to a target

And his opponent nearly always plays an ineffective game

Edited February 21, 20223 yr by Macca