2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Depending on the authors threshold for what thoughtlessness or ignorance actually is they might be able to label thousands of institutions as systematically racist.

 

And you'd be surprised by that?

 

45 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The definition of systematic racism doesn’t require any one individual to be racist. Collingwood have a point when they say that. The systems in place can simply discriminate against races by inadvertent design or ignorance. 
 

Depending on the authors threshold for what thoughtlessness or ignorance actually is they might be able to label thousands of institutions as systematically racist.

The issue for the Pies is making those kind of distinctions which might usually be correct when they have at least the Lumumba situation unresolved. 

You're playing around with definitions here 'Dee'...

It's systematic, the system or whatever when you raise concerns and are discriminated against and/or not taken proper notice of by the powers that be.

Issues have been raised on a number of occasions and nothing has been done to resolve them.

That is systematic.

Also, whilst they may not like to believe it...the actions of the powers that be have been racist.

...and continue to be...

Edited February 2, 20214 yr by rjay

On 01/02/2021 at 4:53 PM, Axis of Bob said:

That's probably the worst of the lot. He's making out like he's also a victim of "this constant race debate". You're not a victim, you've just presided over a culture of systemic racism of which Lumumba was a prominent victim. 

I agree that Lumumba didn't stand up against the racism to be placated about "the constant race debate", he did it because the club culture was racist and he wanted concrete change to that culture. It's clear, based on this, that he was never going to be able to change the culture by working in house. He needed to create the race debate at the club, and the reason that this debate has been ongoing is because the club was too busy telling itself that it wasn't racist rather than addressing the problems like Lumumba wanted in the first place. 

If you throw your arms around an employee that does a knee or loses a close relative then you'll be appreciated. If you throw your arms around the person who has suffered directly from your behaviour then you'll be rightly told to f### off. Imagine being consoled by the person who just king hit you on the street ..... pretty galling and blatantly transparent. 

Eddie clearly doesn't understand the report or what the intent of it is. He's trying to save his reputation, but these are the desperate throes of a dying man. For this to work, he needs to get out of the way so that the club has the space to make real change. 

Eddie should be ready for a run at politics now. Spin spin spin.

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

The systems in place can simply discriminate against races by inadvertent design or ignorance.

There's nothing inadvertent about racial discrimination.

5 hours ago, faultydet said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/29/business/economy/nike-coca-cola-xinjiang-forced-labor-bill.html

 

This NIKE? The slave labor NIKE, or is it another one?

Nike and Coca-Cola Lobby Against Xinjiang Forced Labor Bill

Business groups and major companies like Apple have been pressing Congress to alter legislation cracking down on imports of goods made with forced labor from persecuted Muslim minorities in China.

 

 

 

Lebron James and many other 'woke' athletes make hundreds of million of dollars off slave labor and are held up as heroes by the usual dregs of society.

 

Edited February 2, 20214 yr by Pickett2Jackson

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

The definition of systematic racism doesn’t require any one individual to be racist. Collingwood have a point when they say that. The systems in place can simply discriminate against races by inadvertent design or ignorance. 
 

Depending on the authors threshold for what thoughtlessness or ignorance actually is they might be able to label thousands of institutions as systematically racist.

The issue for the Pies is making those kind of distinctions which might usually be correct when they have at least the Lumumba situation unresolved. 

C'mon DS there seems little doubt racism is hard wired into the Collingwood football club. Rhe whole culture is embedded with it.

I suspect you ate old enough to have attended games at Vic Park. Sure racist vitriol happened at all grounds but it was at a whole other level at Vic Park. That only happens when it is supported by culture and the leadership.

It was only a few months ago the horrendous treatment of Robbie muir was being discussed. Bad everywhere but of course another level at Collingwood. Did they apologise? Of course not.

This is the club thst has a a president who serves for more than two decades who is an out and out racist. Mcallister I'm talking about. He of the they're ok as long as they act like whites infamy. He only remains in power because of the support he receives from the board, powerful supporters and the general fan.

Then not long after they install another president for another couple of decades. Not as overtly racist. But has done little to change the culture and famously, only a few days after tearfully addressing a pies fan's racism, makes a 'joke' about goodes promoting king Kong. And then comes out with yesterday's rubbish.

It is ridiculous to suggest it is an individual issue. Again McGuire only stays in power with the support or the board and movers and shakers.

If all of that doesn't point to it being a systematic issue I don't know does.

So it comes as zero surprise that a review by two respected academics found the racism at the club to be systematic and endemic.

 

44 minutes ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 

Lebron James and many other 'woke' athletes make hundreds of million of dollars off slave labor and are held up as heroes by the usual dregs of society.

 

Hypocrisy is part of the human condition, we're all hypocrites.

So what's your point???

I genuinely don’t understand why the average Aussie bogan appears to like Eddie. I just don’t get it.

Despite his hugely manicured working class narrative, he appears to be the most upwardly aspirational, classless, unempathetic, unathletic, unashamedly ambitious dude in the entire country.

No one in this country finds these characteristics appealing. Not even Collingwood supporters.

The world can be a very strange place. In any event, Collingwood appear to have significant cultural issues. It may be a very difficult year for them.

God bless us all, eh.

 

5 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I genuinely don’t understand why the average Aussie bogan appears to like Eddie. I just don’t get it.

Despite his hugely manicured working class narrative, he appears to be the most upwardly aspirational, classless, unempathetic, unathletic, unashamedly ambitious dude in the entire country.

No one in this country finds these characteristics appealing. Not even Collingwood supporters.

The world can be a very strange place. In any event, Collingwood appear to have significant cultural issues. It may be a very difficult year for them.

God bless us all, eh.

 

It's due to his flaws Ron.

Unlike me and H the man has faults.

 

Collingwood is the official "Proud Boys" Club thanks to Eddie.  Expect them to be running up Spring St in their black and white Fred Perry polo shirts anytime now to storm parliament house and take it back from the deep state baby blood drinkers.

1 hour ago, binman said:

C'mon DS there seems little doubt racism is hard wired into the Collingwood football club. Rhe whole culture is embedded with it.

I suspect you ate old enough to have attended games at Vic Park. Sure racist vitriol happened at all grounds but it was at a whole other level at Vic Park. That only happens when it is supported by culture and the leadership.

It was only a few months ago the horrendous treatment of Robbie muir was being discussed. Bad everywhere but of course another level at Collingwood. Did they apologise? Of course not.

This is the club thst has a a president who serves for more than two decades who is an out and out racist. Mcallister I'm talking about. He of the they're ok as long as they act like whites infamy. He only remains in power because of the support he receives from the board, powerful supporters and the general fan.

Then not long after they install another president for another couple of decades. Not as overtly racist. But has done little to change the culture and famously, only a few days after tearfully addressing a pies fan's racism, makes a 'joke' about goodes promoting king Kong. And then comes out with yesterday's rubbish.

It is ridiculous to suggest it is an individual issue. Again McGuire only stays in power with the support or the board and movers and shakers.

If all of that doesn't point to it being a systematic issue I don't know does.

So it comes as zero surprise that a review by two respected academics found the racism at the club to be systematic and endemic.

 

There's decades between the events of Vic Park and the Collingwood of the Lumumba years and now. I don't think it's anything like the same club. Vic Park might've been the worst but it was hardly the only one and society has take huge leaps forward since those days.

Eddie's a huge problem and the Lumumba issue is a big problem too, I'm not denying or lessening those. I said that with those 2 things it's impossible to claim the systemic issues don't also feature individuals and overt acts of racism.

I'm just saying the authors might've found something similar at Melbourne 5 years ago or even now. We've got a few things going for us in Jetta, May, Matty Whelan in his job, an Alice game and the Reconciliation plan. But I don't think there's been any significant concerns about Melbourne for a long time and yet the same systemic racism might've been found in the way we draft, hire, promote, develop people and so on. Not a single individual racist incident or person but the same systemic issues. We don't have an Indigenous board member, or coaches and who knows how many formal processes for reporting racism or similar we have.

There's a disconnect that people think 'systemic racism' means it's really widespread, like the place is like the KKK or a southern country club. I don't think Wells, Varcoe, Krakouer, Leon Davis and plenty of others would think it was anything like that. Jewish Vice President, Indigenous woman on the board. They've certainly got some changes to make but the systemic racism part of the problem doesn't have to involve racist individuals. It's a comment of systems not individuals and most of the measures put forward were more about prevention of further issues than fixing current problems.

39 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

There's a disconnect that people think 'systemic racism' means it's really widespread, like the place is like the KKK or a southern country club. I don't think Wells, Varcoe, Krakouer, Leon Davis and plenty of others would think it was anything like that. Jewish Vice President, Indigenous woman on the board. They've certainly got some changes to make but the systemic racism part of the problem doesn't have to involve racist individuals. It's a comment of systems not individuals and most of the measures put forward were more about prevention of further issues than fixing current problems.

Crucial point.  A lot of people hear the term and imagine something wilfully hostile or an official policy of discrimination, but as you say, systemic racism is much more about the subtle side of things.  Most of all it is about the environments that allow racism to carry on without any push-back and where there is a higher price to pay for raising an issue than causing it.

For example... if someone raises an issue of racism and the next thing that happens is every possible real or imagined flaw in their character or failure in their past is raised.

A systemically racist environment creates the circumstances where people who would otherwise be bystanders, or even people who feel personally committed against racism, can end up doing the dirty work for racists.

Consider ol' Eddie (social justice champion, just ask him) and the King Kong comments.

Goodes says, "Comparisons to monkeys and slurs about being a monkey are actually quite hurtful because I and my people have suffered terribly on the basis of being seen as somehow separate and lesser humans, and monkey slurs have been a tangible part of that."

Eddie says, "Hur hur hur, you should be cast as King Kong, bit of a cary-on, it's all a jolly good laugh, isn't it."

"Oh, also, I'm not racist, that wasn't racist, I'm just really tired, you know."  "I have contacted the Sydney Swans to explain the situation to Adam Goodes personally."

 

 

3 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I genuinely don’t understand why the average Aussie bogan appears to like Eddie. I just don’t get it.

Despite his hugely manicured working class narrative, he appears to be the most upwardly aspirational, classless, unempathetic, unathletic, unashamedly ambitious dude in the entire country.

No one in this country finds these characteristics appealing. Not even Collingwood supporters.

The world can be a very strange place. In any event, Collingwood appear to have significant cultural issues. It may be a very difficult year for them.

God bless us all, eh.

 

My (ex) brother in law was a Melbourne copper who did the rounds in Melbourne around 3 decades ago.

 25 odd years ago he told me a story involving Eddie McGuire before I barely had a clue who he was. He told me that he often was in a position to be close when fat Eddie was interviewing the players. He described his demeanour as "sickening". He also said that he and his fellow cops thought Eddie looked like he wanted to sleep with the players he was interviewing.

Not a statement on purported racism, but a comment on his character. 

Never been a fan of the guy.

 

4 hours ago, faultydet said:

My (ex) brother in law was a Melbourne copper who did the rounds in Melbourne around 3 decades ago.

 25 odd years ago he told me a story involving Eddie McGuire before I barely had a clue who he was. He told me that he often was in a position to be close when fat Eddie was interviewing the players. He described his demeanour as "sickening". He also said that he and his fellow cops thought Eddie looked like he wanted to sleep with the players he was interviewing.

Not a statement on purported racism, but a comment on his character. 

Never been a fan of the guy.

 

I knew a cop that new a cop that new a cop whose father was a cop that new a cop that worked with a cop that had en encounter with Eddie.

1 hour ago, Ugottobekidding said:

I knew a cop that new a cop that new a cop whose father was a cop that new a cop that worked with a cop that had en encounter with Eddie.

Ugottobekidding 

Eddie digs deeper:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/i-got-it-wrong-mcguire-apologises-for-comments-on-racism-report-20210202-p56yvz.html

“Under the pressure of the day, the use of the word proud was wrong.

“I did not, I did not mean we were proud of past incidents of racism and the hurt that had caused.

“It’s been interpreted widely that way and I regret that deeply.”

No Eddie that's not what was interpreted, it was that you tried to spin Collingwood's addressing of the issue as the main story, not the issue itself.

Here's the essence:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/eddie-still-doesn-t-get-it-pies-can-t-rebuild-from-a-position-of-denial-20210202-p56ytt.html

He simply does not get it and has to go.

18 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/eddie-still-doesn-t-get-it-pies-can-t-rebuild-from-a-position-of-denial-20210202-p56ytt.html.

The report by Barrie Cassidy (a Collingwood supporter) is just the perfect summary of this whole sordid situation. 

Eddie gotta go - and now!

12 hours ago, binman said:

C'mon DS there seems little doubt racism is hard wired into the Collingwood football club. Rhe whole culture is embedded with it.

I suspect you ate old enough to have attended games at Vic Park. Sure racist vitriol happened at all grounds but it was at a whole other level at Vic Park. That only happens when it is supported by culture and the leadership.

It was only a few months ago the horrendous treatment of Robbie muir was being discussed. Bad everywhere but of course another level at Collingwood. Did they apologise? Of course not.

This is the club thst has a a president who serves for more than two decades who is an out and out racist. Mcallister I'm talking about. He of the they're ok as long as they act like whites infamy. He only remains in power because of the support he receives from the board, powerful supporters and the general fan.

Then not long after they install another president for another couple of decades. Not as overtly racist. But has done little to change the culture and famously, only a few days after tearfully addressing a pies fan's racism, makes a 'joke' about goodes promoting king Kong. And then comes out with yesterday's rubbish.

It is ridiculous to suggest it is an individual issue. Again McGuire only stays in power with the support or the board and movers and shakers.

If all of that doesn't point to it being a systematic issue I don't know does.

So it comes as zero surprise that a review by two respected academics found the racism at the club to be systematic and endemic.

 

I too remember the the abuse by the filth supporters not only at their ground,i was a kid there for the footy but learnt more swear words than anything about footy.The treatment of robby Muir (who i was a big fan of)was disgusting along with others before him like Berty Johnson from north melb.Racism was bred into collingwood and still is.Time to go Eddie

I'd love to give this the attribution it deserves, but unfortunately I don't know whose work it is. But I like it... 

15 hours ago, binman said:

C'mon DS there seems little doubt racism is hard wired into the Collingwood football club. Rhe whole culture is embedded with it.

I suspect you ate old enough to have attended games at Vic Park. Sure racist vitriol happened at all grounds but it was at a whole other level at Vic Park. That only happens when it is supported by culture and the leadership.

It was only a few months ago the horrendous treatment of Robbie muir was being discussed. Bad everywhere but of course another level at Collingwood. Did they apologise? Of course not.

This is the club thst has a a president who serves for more than two decades who is an out and out racist. Mcallister I'm talking about. He of the they're ok as long as they act like whites infamy. He only remains in power because of the support he receives from the board, powerful supporters and the general fan.

Then not long after they install another president for another couple of decades. Not as overtly racist. But has done little to change the culture and famously, only a few days after tearfully addressing a pies fan's racism, makes a 'joke' about goodes promoting king Kong. And then comes out with yesterday's rubbish.

It is ridiculous to suggest it is an individual issue. Again McGuire only stays in power with the support or the board and movers and shakers.

If all of that doesn't point to it being a systematic issue I don't know does.

So it comes as zero surprise that a review by two respected academics found the racism at the club to be systematic and endemic.

 

Well said Bin

13 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't think Wells, Varcoe, Krakouer, Leon Davis and plenty of others would think it was anything like that. 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amymcquire/former-collingwood-teammate-leon-davis-backs-heritier

https://www.3aw.com.au/two-more-of-heritier-lumumbas-teammates-back-claims-of-racist-nickname/

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/former-richmond-and-collingwood-player-andrew-krakouer-opens-up-on-racism/news-story/94b6ac6c3ed3c85f06eb75dac548e580

Quote

 

Krakouer also revealed he was urged to play against his will following Eddie McGuire’s ‘King Kong’ comments on Triple M radio following an unsavoury incident with Adam Goodes and a young supporter.

Collingwood had an interstate trip the next week and the 2011 Mark of the Year winner did not want to travel, but was urged to do so.

“I was told that if I didn’t play it would be a political statement against the club and Eddie,” he said.

“I certainly didn’t want to do that. I didn’t have any problems with Ed. He’s helped me out and has done a lot of good things with me. He’s unfortunately made a mistake on what he said and it really deeply hurt me. The thing that hurt me were the comments and how it was handled at the time.”

 

 

12 hours ago, faultydet said:

My (ex) brother in law was a Melbourne copper who did the rounds in Melbourne around 3 decades ago.

 25 odd years ago he told me a story involving Eddie McGuire before I barely had a clue who he was. He told me that he often was in a position to be close when fat Eddie was interviewing the players. He described his demeanour as "sickening". He also said that he and his fellow cops thought Eddie looked like he wanted to sleep with the players he was interviewing.

Not a statement on purported racism, but a comment on his character. 

Never been a fan of the guy.

 

Hmm smells of character assassination to me  FD.

4 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

Eddie digs deeper:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/i-got-it-wrong-mcguire-apologises-for-comments-on-racism-report-20210202-p56yvz.html

“Under the pressure of the day, the use of the word proud was wrong.

“I did not, I did not mean we were proud of past incidents of racism and the hurt that had caused.

“It’s been interpreted widely that way and I regret that deeply.”

No Eddie that's not what was interpreted, it was that you tried to spin Collingwood's addressing of the issue as the main story, not the issue itself.

Here's the essence:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/eddie-still-doesn-t-get-it-pies-can-t-rebuild-from-a-position-of-denial-20210202-p56ytt.html

He simply does not get it and has to go.

Exactly! And his response to the criticism is even more spin. Which is ironic considering some of the findings of the report.

 

Quote

 

Titled "Do Better", the report said that Collingwood's response to racism had failed in many areas. It found:

• The club's attitude to dealing with racist incidents was to "deny, double-down and deflect"
• Collingwood was more likely to respond to a racist incident when it was raised by the media than by a complaint within the club
• Action taken to tackle racism was often done to protect the club's brand

 

How about "sorry" for any hurt caused and showing some vulnerability. Nah, Eddie and the Pies just "deny, double-down and deflect".

5 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

Eddie digs deeper:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/i-got-it-wrong-mcguire-apologises-for-comments-on-racism-report-20210202-p56yvz.html

“Under the pressure of the day, the use of the word proud was wrong.

“I did not, I did not mean we were proud of past incidents of racism and the hurt that had caused.

“It’s been interpreted widely that way and I regret that deeply.”

No Eddie that's not what was interpreted, it was that you tried to spin Collingwood's addressing of the issue as the main story, not the issue itself.

I read those comments, and without a word of a lie, my first thought was to wonder if Eddie has some cognitive issues.

Widely interpreted?

I did not see one response suggesting he meant they were proud of past incidents of racism and the hurt that had caused.

And more the point, who on earth would think they, or he, would be proud of being racist? That is an absurd thought. 

I assumed he meant a proud day because the report was being made public and they were going to act. Isn't that how most interpreted his comments?

He had a full day to reflect on it and that's his considered response?

I read he blamed the stress of the report being leaked for 'misspeaking'.

And when he made his Kong Kong joke he blamed the cumulative stress of the racism row.

Red flags if you ask me. At the very least signs of someone who is struggles to perform his role under pressure.

59 minutes ago, binman said:

I read those comments, and without a word of a lie, my first thought was to wonder if Eddie has some cognitive issues.

Widely interpreted?

I did not see one response suggesting he meant they were proud of past incidents of racism and the hurt that had caused.

And more the point, who on earth would think they, or he, would be proud of being racist? That is an absurd thought. 

I assumed he meant a proud day because the report was being made public and they were going to act. Isn't that how most interpreted his comments?

He had a full day to reflect on it and that's his considered response?

I read he blamed the stress of the report being leaked for 'misspeaking'.

And when he made his Kong Kong joke he blamed the cumulative stress of the racism row.

Red flags if you ask me. At the very least signs of someone who is struggles to perform his role under pressure.

eddies response to pressure has always been to go on the attack and to deflect

he didn't handle the pressure when he moved to the big end of business, away from the cult of ego in sports and entertainment, for his short lived and disastrous stint as ch9 ceo.

no doubt jana wendt will have a sly smirk when eddie gets "boned"