Tom McDonald - Signs a 4 year deal in the middle of 2018. Since then, has turned into one of the worst footballers on our list. Can barely turn and is ridiculously slow.

Angus Brayshaw - Same as Tmac, Signs a big 4 year deal in the middle of 2018 and yet again hs done nothing since. A step closer to getting dropped to park footy.

James Harmes - Signs a 5 year deal last year and now thinks he's Dustin Martin. I'm staggered how far backwards he's gone.

Okay in all seriousness whats happened to Brayshaw and Harmes. Our run home to the finals these two looked like players that were going to take the AFL by the storm as one being potentially one of the best taggers in the game and the other an up and coming elite mid.

Have we underestimated the loss of Brendan McCartney?

12 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Tom McDonald - Signs a 4 year deal in the middle of 2018. Since then, has turned into one of the worst footballers on our list. Can barely turn and is ridiculously slow.

Angus Brayshaw - Same as Tmac, Signs a big 4 year deal in the middle of 2018 and yet again hs done nothing since. A step closer to getting dropped to park footy.

James Harmes - Signs a 5 year deal last year and now thinks he's Dustin Martin. I'm staggered how far backwards he's gone.

Okay in all seriousness whats happened to Brayshaw and Harmes. Our run home to the finals these two looked like players that were going to take the AFL by the storm as one being potentially one of the best taggers in the game and the other an up and coming elite mid.

Have we underestimated the loss of Brendan McCartney?

Gus was never really that good, has been overrated  by the media due to the fact he was a high draft pick and that he wears a helmet

Harmes should be played in the forward line. Has always been a terrible kick so is a liability anywhere else

Tmac injured his foot and has been rubbish ever since. Surely a delisting at the end of the year

9 minutes ago, Elegt said:

Gus was never really that good, has been overrated  by the media due to the fact he was a high draft pick and that he wears a helmet

Harmes should be played in the forward line. Has always been a terrible kick so is a liability anywhere else

Tmac injured his foot and has been rubbish ever since. Surely a delisting at the end of the year

Heroes wear helmets!!!

Harmes needs to be played back into form and stay there. He's the best tagger in the comp. Half back, no. Wing, no. HFF, no. Take the number 1 mid every week and let's see what happens. Hell, might even win a clearance.

21 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

Okay in all seriousness whats happened to Brayshaw and Harmes. Our run home to the finals these two looked like players that were going to take the AFL by the storm as one being potentially one of the best taggers in the game and the other an up and coming elite mid.

Have we underestimated the loss of Brendan McCartney?

Surely we can find an old man someone to suggest to players they have a crack and win the pill. But I don't think that's our problem.

The game got so much faster last year. Teams cut all the one paced midfield plodders in response to Richmond leading the way in 2017 and West Coast in 2018 realising they were far better without Priddis and Mitchell.

Brayshaw is one of those plodders. Harmes was once a quick linebreaking mid, now teams have plenty of mids who can run with him.

That said, they can both play well on ball. Gus has lovely quick hands and the ability to win the ball going forward and move on to either foot for a kick from a stoppage. Harmes isn't Dusty but he is one of the rare guys in the comp who has that speed, size and power to negate someone like Dusty.

The issue is how do you get them in a midfield with Viney, Oliver and Petracca. So far the best we've done is Gus playing 50;50 wing and Harmes playing 50;50 forward. Maybe we just live with that?

On Harmes - I think he's been ruined by not playing him to his strengths and instead trying to turn him into something he isn't.

Pre 2018 he was just another plodder who I'm sure many wouldnt have minded trading/delisting.

2018 he reinvents himself as a lockdown mid who still got plenty of his own ball. Second half of the season in particular he took many impressive scalps.

2019 was 2019.... 

2020 off season we then try and turn him into a rebounding defender. He's then given about a game and a half before we abandon that plan and throw him back in the middle, minus the lock down role which was the part he was actually good at.

Its the game plan stupid.

Reading the thread title I half expected the op to just be "we don't kick it between those 2 big posts often enough"

Maybe just a 2 year contract. Therefore you will only get 1 [censored] year instead of 3 [censored] years.

combination of overpaying average footballers (and coaches), and coaching/developing them poorly. 

Can add Oliver to this list as well. They've all been Melbourne'd.

Should have just let Goodwin resign like he wanted to after the camp fiasco.

Edited July 30, 20204 yr by praha

4 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Reading the thread title I half expected the op to just be "we don't kick it between those 2 big posts often enough"

Kicking through the big sticks, that is asking to much we can't even hit a 15m kick or a 2 m handball.  Until we address our turnovers we will sit in the bottom 4. 

I’ve worked it out - we’re chyte.

Oliver needs to be dropped. Even if he gets suspended, tell him he was getting a rest anyway. He either needs to pull his head in and work harder at the basics or relise he isn't the chosen one he probably thinks he is. Maybe he has been asked to change the way he plays and it doesn't suit him?

Petracca was quiet, we can't be a team that relies so much on 1 player and expect to go far.

We know we are the worst skilled side in the AFL and one of the slowest, if not the slowest.
The game plan has been shown to not work with this list.  
I think we have another problem with Gawn, in that players believe he can dominate and win the clearances and then the game for them. Opposition are roving to him and winning clearances, then with outside spread are killing us. We need to adjust in this area now. I have advocated Gawn smashing it forward, thereby creating a different contest and changing the game.
Our Coach seems reluctant to change things during or before games. That is a problem. It seems to be the do it my way until it works philosophy which is problematic at best. 
However all that being said,  when all you have to do all year is practice and then execute reasonable disposal and you can’t, you have no chance of success. 
When your star mid, every game wins the first few contests and then gives the ball straight to the opposition for goals and before you know it you are 3-4 goals down, you generally don’t win. 
On last night with all of those issues present, we also lacked any effort or pressure and that is another problem. Is there a problem emerging with the team in mental application? Is something wrong behind the scenes? Last night was too bad to be true even for this side. 
As a personal comment I am so angry about what I saw, given the opportunity these guys have been given to have a job atm, I have deleted the recording of all footy shows as I just can’t be bothered anymore, watching the success of other clubs and the discussion of their chances. I am limiting myself to watching our games only until we show something. That is my rant.

10 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

James Harmes - Signs a 5 year deal last year and now thinks he's Dustin Martin. I'm staggered how far backwards he's gone.

I'm flabbergatsed too with Harmes.

This is a guy that pretty much got best on grounds in the GWS round 23 and Geelong elimination final wins in 2018. It was looking like the sky was the limit for Harmes.

I suppose at the end of the day he was missed out on national draft selection and is playing accordingly at the moment. 

@dazzledavey36 - it's not a long bow to draw when you look at the long term contracts they received and how they have played since then.  While there are bigger issues than this, it's worth looking at.

When you consider our centre square set up, and the players who run through there, we have low skilled players.  That's not news to anyone here.  Petracca can be good at times, but he, Viney, Oliver, Gus, Harmes etc are all average users of the footy at best.

So what do we do?  The three we generally go with are Viney, Oliver and Trac.  Does that need to change?  Chucking Gus or Harmes in there isn't going to make much of a difference, so do we look to offload one of them to help us get a different type of mid that we can run through there.  

We could look to experiment, but guys most of our mids can't really play in other possies.  I'd love to see us try and centre square set up of, say, Trac, Melksham and Salem to see how it goes, but I don't know if we will really get the opportunity to do so.

Either way, those contracts aren't looking flash at present.

47 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Its the game plan stupid.

I would usually agree but Goodwin mentioned in the post match about how we went to wide and kept kicking to the boundary.  This seems that the players are in fact not following the game plan and just don’t have enough balls or skill to move the ball into more dangerous positions. 

Nick Reiwoldt said it best last night and there's no escaping this hopeless cycle we're going to be in for another 8-10 years until the list gets completely turned over again.

We just have a large number of players who:

a) have poor skills

b) are bad decision makers.

 

May God have mercy on our souls.

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

@dazzledavey36 - it's not a long bow to draw when you look at the long term contracts they received and how they have played since then.  While there are bigger issues than this, it's worth looking at.

When you consider our centre square set up, and the players who run through there, we have low skilled players.  That's not news to anyone here.  Petracca can be good at times, but he, Viney, Oliver, Gus, Harmes etc are all average users of the footy at best.

So what do we do?  The three we generally go with are Viney, Oliver and Trac.  Does that need to change?  Chucking Gus or Harmes in there isn't going to make much of a difference, so do we look to offload one of them to help us get a different type of mid that we can run through there.  

We could look to experiment, but guys most of our mids can't really play in other possies.  I'd love to see us try and centre square set up of, say, Trac, Melksham and Salem to see how it goes, but I don't know if we will really get the opportunity to do so.

Either way, those contracts aren't looking flash at present.

There are some good points here Wise.

I honestly feel that clubs have just done their homework really well on our mids. If you can beat them on the inside then you already have them covered on the outside because we are just poor in that aspect. 

Brisbane and Port have set the precedent now  for the competition on how to nulify Gawn's influence with our mids.

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

There are some good points here Wise.

I honestly feel that clubs have just done their homework really well on our mids. If you can beat them on the inside then you already have them covered on the outside because we are just poor in that aspect. 

Brisbane and Port have set the precedent now  for the competition on how to nulify Gawn's influence with our mids.

And the homework wouldn't take too long.  Stop them at clearances, limit their contested possession game and wait for the turnover = beating Melbourne.  Even we can see it happening.

The talent on our list is there, but going by last night, it is out of whack with what Goodwin is trying to do.  He needs to understand that what worked in 2018 isn't working as much in 2020 and look to make the necessary changes.  2018 worked as we were the hunters.  As soon as we became the hunted we wilted.

10 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Tom McDonald - Signs a 4 year deal in the middle of 2018. Since then, has turned into one of the worst footballers on our list. Can barely turn and is ridiculously slow.

Angus Brayshaw - Same as Tmac, Signs a big 4 year deal in the middle of 2018 and yet again hs done nothing since. A step closer to getting dropped to park footy.

James Harmes - Signs a 5 year deal last year and now thinks he's Dustin Martin. I'm staggered how far backwards he's gone.

Okay in all seriousness whats happened to Brayshaw and Harmes. Our run home to the finals these two looked like players that were going to take the AFL by the storm as one being potentially one of the best taggers in the game and the other an up and coming elite mid.

Have we underestimated the loss of Brendan McCartney?

This has been happening at this club since the days of Travis Johnstone. Extract the digit in a contract year, go through the motions for a few years, then go hard again when the dollars are back on the table. 

Its hard to believe after all this time that players are basically unaccountable for their performances whilst under contract. Sure they may drop back to the seconds for a couple of weeks, but they still get paid the same each week.

Earlier in the  week I spoke with someone in an incidental work conversation who had been working for an AFL club coaching panel pre covid.  He has subsequently been stood down.  I don't really know him at all but he noticed that I'm a Demon fan from a top I was wearing in our online meet. He was trying to sell me stuff so he was obviously looking for an "in". We had a bit of footy chit chat and he asked me about my thoughts on the Demons.  Then I asked his. He said Gawn is the best ruckman in the comp, and quite possibly the best player, but he plays with "peanuts". He said if Gawn went to a side like Geelong they'd be unbeatable.  In his view our midfield fall into one or more of the following categories: double grabbers (fumblers); poor skills; poor decision makers.  He said every one of them had at least one of those issues and some had more.  He said Gawn gives his midfield first look way more than any other ruck in the competition but the midfield either fumble it, butcher it or pass it on to somebody in a worse position almost all of the time.

I asked him about Petracca and he pointed out a very small sample size to go on to quantify his improvement, but that he appeared to have made himself a better player by working harder on both fitness and decision making i.e clearing the immediate area with possession distance. He said the way to beat Melbourne is basically concede the tap, understand where Gawn is dropping it and wait for the midfield to either fumble or turn it over.  Down the line, add numbers to any contest with Gawn to neutralize his aerial impact and know that when the ball hits the deck the opposition is much better than 50-50 to scoot away with it.  He said neither Gold Coast or Hawthorn covered Gawn properly when he dropped back and that's why we looked so good. Brisbane did and while Gawn had solid numbers, his actual game influence was nullified. He reckons every team playing Melbourne spends at least half their prep time on Gawn.

I watched last night with this conversation in mind and it played out pretty much as above.  Even Hinkley and Wines post match saying how much time they put into Gawn. He didn't offer any solutions, just pointed out the issues, which unfortunately seem to compound.

Harmes is our best gut running midfielder, I'm sick of seeing him down half back and large parts of the Bris game half forward. Give him some run with roles and get back to what he does best. 

Just now, layzie said:

Harmes is our best gut running midfielder, I'm sick of seeing him down half back and large parts of the Bris game half forward. Give him some run with roles and get back to what he does best. 

Sorry im not following things as closely as i once did - why isnt Harmes playing run with roles.  Seems like in this case, maybe others, we are trying to be too smart by half

14 minutes ago, Waltham33 said:

Sorry im not following things as closely as i once did - why isnt Harmes playing run with roles.  Seems like in this case, maybe others, we are trying to be too smart by half

I'm not totally sure what it is Waltham but he seems to be playing a half back flanker role a lot of the time (at least that's where most of his possessions are), hard to see without being at the game and focusing on what he's doing but there's definitely been a shift. I think he's a guy that relishes covering territory and running his backside off, may even feel like he's wasted when he's unable to play that way.

 

1 hour ago, Swooper1987 said:

Earlier in the  week I spoke with someone in an incidental work conversation who had been working for an AFL club coaching panel pre covid.  He has subsequently been stood down.  I don't really know him at all but he noticed that I'm a Demon fan from a top I was wearing in our online meet. He was trying to sell me stuff so he was obviously looking for an "in". We had a bit of footy chit chat and he asked me about my thoughts on the Demons.  Then I asked his. He said Gawn is the best ruckman in the comp, and quite possibly the best player, but he plays with "peanuts". He said if Gawn went to a side like Geelong they'd be unbeatable.  In his view our midfield fall into one or more of the following categories: double grabbers (fumblers); poor skills; poor decision makers.  He said every one of them had at least one of those issues and some had more.  He said Gawn gives his midfield first look way more than any other ruck in the competition but the midfield either fumble it, butcher it or pass it on to somebody in a worse position almost all of the time.

I asked him about Petracca and he pointed out a very small sample size to go on to quantify his improvement, but that he appeared to have made himself a better player by working harder on both fitness and decision making i.e clearing the immediate area with possession distance. He said the way to beat Melbourne is basically concede the tap, understand where Gawn is dropping it and wait for the midfield to either fumble or turn it over.  Down the line, add numbers to any contest with Gawn to neutralize his aerial impact and know that when the ball hits the deck the opposition is much better than 50-50 to scoot away with it.  He said neither Gold Coast or Hawthorn covered Gawn properly when he dropped back and that's why we looked so good. Brisbane did and while Gawn had solid numbers, his actual game influence was nullified. He reckons every team playing Melbourne spends at least half their prep time on Gawn.

I watched last night with this conversation in mind and it played out pretty much as above.  Even Hinkley and Wines post match saying how much time they put into Gawn. He didn't offer any solutions, just pointed out the issues, which unfortunately seem to compound.

Some good points and truth in that. Our biggest strength (Gawn) is also our biggest weakness. Teams just focus on your 1 wood, remove its power and we're ordinary.

Id prefer to see Jackson take centre square bounces. He won't win many, but can add as a 2nd midfielder in there.

OR, why not Gawn AND Jackson in the centre square. Jackson at 200cm can cleanly take Gawns taps ABOVE oppo midfielders, and get hands away to a player outside. Where's the creativity Goodwin?