CHANGES: Rd 21 v Collingwood

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Can't use injuries as an excuse this week:

Collingwood missing 9 of their best 22:

De Goey, Stevenson, Beams, Langdon, Sier, Cox, Moore, Aish and Wells (who will return for finals).

Or will the apologists still blame the interrupted pre season, 21 weeks later?

You can count on the fact they will.

Something along the lines of, "Yeh well our injuries are worse" or "at least we got within 30 points of last year's grand finalists".

"I'll take X, Y and Z positives out of tonight"

"I thought Oscar did really well to keep Mihocek to 11 goals".

Etc Etc. Yawn, Yawn.

 

[binman 39,088]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

 

Or will the apologists still blame the interrupted pre season, 21 weeks later?

Of course it is a factor. Fair dinkum what is so hard for some to understand that if a player does not build his fitness base preseason he won't ever get to full fitness before season's end? A fact that i'll bet London to a brick that burgess is at pains to point out when he takes over.

Apply this maxim to a third of the playing group and you have a recipie for a team that can't run out games and is exposed at the end of quarters, second halves and most of all in the last quarter. All season. You know, like occurs with us.

Or rather than ignoring a well known fact (the season long  impact of interrupred preseasons) perhaps you are in the camp that our evident lack of fitness is misson's fault? The camp that sees symptoms (eg lack of fitness) but gets the cause wrong for all manner of issues (eg problem scoring)

The pies had a stellar preseason and so fitness is less an issue for them. And so they will run out tbe game better tban us. Go figure

Edited August 7, 2019 by binman

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

12 minutes ago, binman said:

Of course it is a factor. Fair dinkum what is so hard for some to understand that if a player does not build his fitness base preseason he won't ever get to full fitness before season's end? A fact that i'll bet London to a brick that burgess is at pains to point out when he takes over.

Apply this maxim to a third of the playing group and you have a recipie for a team that can't run out games and is exposed at the end of quarters, second halves and most of all in the last quarter. All season. You know, like occurs with us.

Or rather than ignoring a well known fact (the season long  impact of interrupred preseasons) perhaps you are in the camp that our evident lack of fitness is misson's fault? The camp that sees symptoms (eg lack of fitness) but gets the cause wrong for all manner of issues (eg problem scoring)

The pies had a stellar preseason and so fitness is less an issue for them. And so they will run out tbe game better tban us. Go figure

What's funny is that @Satyriconhome was at pre-season and took objection to the entire 'interrupted pre-season' thing. 

You guys should chat. Interesting that he hasn't said boo for a while. Wonder why..

 

We all know it's been a factor. However, yourself and a few others give it far too much attention and weight and consistently leave out much more important factors that have existed for a couple of years now, but for one reason or another supporters don't like hearing about them.

Also, those 'O-mac myths' are becoming more real everyday Binman. Tomorrow night should be interesting at selection.

Please don't use injuries as an excuse if he's left out.

Edited August 7, 2019 by stevethemanjordan

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,414]

24 minutes ago, binman said:

Of course it is a factor. Fair dinkum what is so hard for some to understand that if a player does not build his fitness base preseason he won't ever get to full fitness before season's end? A fact that i'll bet London to a brick that burgess is at pains to point out when he takes over.

Apply this maxim to a third of the playing group and you have a recipie for a team that can't run out games and is exposed at the end of quarters, second halves and most of all in the last quarter. All season. You know, like occurs with us.

Or rather than ignoring a well known fact (the season long  impact of interrupred preseasons) perhaps you are in the camp that our evident lack of fitness is misson's fault? The camp that sees symptoms (eg lack of fitness) but gets the cause wrong for all manner of issues (eg problem scoring)

The pies had a stellar preseason and so fitness is less an issue for them. And so they will run out tbe game better tban us. Go figure

Geez I would've thought after 21 weeks, the players would have built a bit of match fitness, grit and determination to run out a game of footy....

When they actually dug in during a last qtr, they got a result against Sydney, Hawthorn, GC and Carlton. They showed they could do it earlier on in the season when they put their minds to it, why can't they do it now?

But in fairness to you, the last quarter stats don't lie and do point to the fact that we're a hopelessly unfit side.

I'm just sick of using our pre-season as an excuse, and perhaps we should raise the possibility that we are simply a very ordinary footy side that lacks the basic fundamentals with respect to skill execution, eg - the infamous ANB & Fritsch stuff up against St Kilda 2 weeks ago.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Bring-Back-Powell

[dimmy 1,146]

What has happened to Joeboys 3 word analysis last week? I did not think we were that bad !!!

[Redleg 38,044]

9 minutes ago, dimmy said:

What has happened to Joeboys 3 word analysis last week? I did not think we were that bad !!!

Here it is:

MFC -  don't like rain.

[chook fowler 18,392]

6 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Here it is:

MFC -  don't like rain.

Or sun, heat, cold, snow, wind ..........

[Redleg 38,044]

7 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Or sun, heat, cold, snow, wind ..........

It was actually my 3 word summary of last week as Joeboy was absent.

But you can also add "grass"

[binman 39,088]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

 

We all know it's been a factor. However, yourself and a few others give it far too much attention and weight and consistently leave out much more important factors that have existed for a couple of years now, but for one reason or another supporters don't like hearing about them.

Also, those 'O-mac myths' are becoming more real everyday Binman. Tomorrow night should be interesting at selection.

Please don't use injuries as an excuse if he's left out.

Give it far more weight and attention - in your opinion. Not mine. No one has argued that it is the only factor, least of all me, but it is the key factor (In my opinion). And as I have said many times it an issue that makes it extremely hard to assess the true impact of issues the penny hennys bang on about relentlessly (game plan, the coach etc etc).

Consistently leave out more important factors - do you mean like me banging on for years that our foot skills are appalling and we should have been putting a premium on drafting in elite kicks not contested ball winners (and not trade out our best kick)? Or banging on about the need for outside speed?

Omac myths going just fine too Steve. Like the one that was swirling here after he was dropped that he would not play again for us. Or that every goal a forward kicks is as a result of an omac error (Bruce says hi).

On omac why will selection be interesting? As i have noted already if May comes in, omac comes out. Simple. 

I'm more concerned about weed than omac given we have a surfeit of defenders and bugger all forwards.

IIRC you were a big weed fan and I might be wrong but you were bullish about him becoming a gun for us. Where do you sit now with weed given his horrendous form and not holding a senior spot this year?

Edited August 7, 2019 by binman

[pineapple dee 2,892]

On 8/5/2019 at 10:23 AM, Demon3 said:

Pruess is a disaster, 1 mark, 6 disposals and 3 of them turnovers. Its not working, out he goes. Put Lever away fro the rest of the Year, what good is it having him play, plus he is so overrated its not funny, sorry i should say that, because he does have elite qualities, he is a great Spolier and his pointing to players in the backline is first class.O-Mac is not good at his job.

Pruess Lever O-Mac - OUT

May Hore Lockhart  - IN 

 

 

i sort of agree about lettting Lever out of the team to get him right for 2020.

Pointing to players ??  Lever can point and Point out to whomsoever he likes.

He is a leader and would be a superb captain for this club.

He doesn't sulk and point or not do what he encourages teammates to do or throw in the towel and blame everyone else for his short comings

 

[Demon3 2,541]

11 minutes ago, pineapple dee said:

i sort of agree about lettting Lever out of the team to get him right for 2020.

Pointing to players ??  Lever can point and Point out to whomsoever he likes.

He is a leader and would be a superb captain for this club.

He doesn't sulk and point or not do what he encourages teammates to do or throw in the towel and blame everyone else for his short comings

 

I have said enough about Jake on here, i think he is just going and not providing a lot at the moment. He is courageous and is a really good mark, and i do appreciate his leadership, but his 2 first round pick qualities dry up pretty quick after that, and i do acknowledge his injuries, thats why i say, put him away for the year, its hardly been a smooth road back from his reco. 

[DeeSpencer 23,493]

5 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Can't use injuries as an excuse this week:

Collingwood missing 9 of their best 22:

De Goey, Stevenson, Beams, Langdon, Sier, Cox, Moore, Aish and Wells (who will return for finals).

Or will the apologists still blame the interrupted pre season, 21 weeks later?

McDonald - DeGoey (best forward)

Cox - Weideman

Jetta - Langdon (back pocket)

Beams/Sier (can’t play both) - Vanders

Stevenson - Hannan

Aish - Stretch or Joel Smith or Garlett or Spargo

Moore - ? Lever

Wells -KK - both theoretical afl players at this stage 

Not quite an equal comparison but not too far off if Lever doesn’t play. 

But I take issue with the idea that we are meant to be able to perform to the same level as a Collingwood side that: 1) was better than us last year and 2) has had a decent run for most of this year until recently. 

Our backline hasn’t had a chance to gel. When Moore and Howe both came out for the Pies they fell apart. 

Our inside mids have been short on fitness all year. It can’t just change. The Pies without Adams and Beams/Sier were shown up, but Pendles, Treloar and Sidebottom have been mostly healthy. Our outside mids have been a mess, how do fix it without talent? 

Our forward line has also been a mess. Part of that was coaching, but mostly talent. I’d like to see Fritsch, Melksham and Petracca do something against an undermanned Collingwood but without a tall to work around it might be hard.

Look at the guys we are bringing in - Baker who didn’t do a preseason, JKh who missed 10 weeks, Dunkley signed mid year, Lockhart from Casey preseason. Hore who had ankle surgery In summer and recently broke his collar bone. Petty as a key forward. Lewis as a forward. The missing players might be in the Pies favour but the journey to where both teams are at isn’t. 

 

[old55 21,638]

In addition Collingwood are consistently fielding a team 2 years older and 30 games more mature than us, despite the fact that we have Lewis and Jones by far our oldest and most experienced players pumping up our numbers. As noted above we're consistently fielding young inexperienced teams.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Fifty-5

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,414]

14 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

McDonald - DeGoey (best forward)

Cox - Weideman

Jetta - Langdon (back pocket)

Beams/Sier (can’t play both) - Vanders

Stevenson - Hannan

Aish - Stretch or Joel Smith or Garlett or Spargo

Moore - ? Lever

Wells -KK - both theoretical afl players at this stage 

Not quite an equal comparison but not too far off if Lever doesn’t play. 

But I take issue with the idea that we are meant to be able to perform to the same level as a Collingwood side that: 1) was better than us last year and 2) has had a decent run for most of this year until recently. 

Our backline hasn’t had a chance to gel. When Moore and Howe both came out for the Pies they fell apart. 

Our inside mids have been short on fitness all year. It can’t just change. The Pies without Adams and Beams/Sier were shown up, but Pendles, Treloar and Sidebottom have been mostly healthy. Our outside mids have been a mess, how do fix it without talent? 

Our forward line has also been a mess. Part of that was coaching, but mostly talent. I’d like to see Fritsch, Melksham and Petracca do something against an undermanned Collingwood but without a tall to work around it might be hard.

Look at the guys we are bringing in - Baker who didn’t do a preseason, JKh who missed 10 weeks, Dunkley signed mid year, Lockhart from Casey preseason. Hore who had ankle surgery In summer and recently broke his collar bone. Petty as a key forward. Lewis as a forward. The missing players might be in the Pies favour but the journey to where both teams are at isn’t. 

 

A good solid analysis there.

I would contend that the outs are equal in quantity but certainly not in quality as DeGoey (A+), Stevenson, Beams, and Moore are all A Graders, while T Mac and Jetta are the only A/B+ Graders missing for us.

Assuming we lose, Saturday will highlight how much better depth Collingwood have than us, particularly up forward. While they'd prefer to have De Goey, Stevenson and Cox in the side, they can easily rely on Hoskin-Elliott, Miocheck, Elliott,Thomas, Varcoe and Sidebottom to pick up the slack and kick their 3-4 goals. Who can we rely on aside from Fritsch who will likely kick his 2 or 3 on Saturday?

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Bring-Back-Powell

[old55 21,638]

From the respective teams fielded last week:

Average Attributes
	Collingwood	Attribute	Melbourne
	187.7cm	Height	188.1cm
	87.5kg	Weight	88.0kg
	26yr 9mth	Age	24yr 8mth
	119.2	Games	89.9
Total Players By Games
	Collingwood	Games	Melbourne
	5	Less than 50	7
	4	50 to 99	9
	6	100 to 149	3
	7	150 or more	3

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=9889 Collingwood v Gold Coast

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=9887 Melbourne v Richmond

Replace Lewis with Hannan in our line-up - a legitimate and preferred outcome - and our age profile drops to 24y 2m and the games to 75.

For some these facts are reasons, while for others they are excuses

[DeeSpencer 23,493]

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

A good solid analysis there.

I would contend that the outs are equal in quantity but certainly not in quality as DeGoey (A+), Stevenson, Beams, and Moore are all A Graders, while T Mac and Jetta are the only A/B+ Graders missing for us.

Assuming we lose, Saturday will highlight how much better depth Collingwood have than us, particularly up forward. While they'd prefer to have De Goey, Stevenson and Cox in the side, they can easily rely on Hoskin-Elliott, Miocheck, Elliott,Thomas, Varcoe and Sidebottom to pick up the slack and kick their 3-4 goals. Who can we rely on aside from Fritsch who will likely kick his 2 or 3 on Saturday?

 

I'm not sure Beams is an A grader anymore. I think he's on about par with what Brayshaw should be doing but isn't and not that far off what Vanders could be doing, although that seems unlikely to happen again.

We lack the competence that Mayne and Phillips bring to the wing for the Pies, that's our first area of deficiency.

Then we're clearly inferior up forward. McDonald and Weidemen should provide us more than Mihocek and Cox but are both missing. Melksham probably equal if not better WHE when fully fit. Petracca and Fritsch are probably the closest thing to De Goey and Stephenson but they are different types of players. We're definitely short a dangerous crumber and some half forward class. Varcoe, Thomas and Elliot have all had their struggles this year but at least they are options and that's where the depth of our list has fallen away, but again, the guys we've had in those roles - Hannan, Spargo, Garlett, Lockhart - have all had a lot to overcome this year. Except for ANB, he's been a huge disappointment. Hunt's been ok, he's had moments of looking dangerous and good pressure.

I'm not trying to defend the club for some of the list management, recruiting, coaching, injury management etc, but to me it's just not apples with apples to say both teams have similar injury lists now so should be playing similarly.

[binman 39,088]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

A good solid analysis there.

 

Assuming we lose, Saturday will highlight how much better depth Collingwood have than us, particularly up forward. While they'd prefer to have De Goey, Stevenson and Cox in the side, they can easily rely on Hoskin-Elliott, Miocheck, Elliott,Thomas, Varcoe and Sidebottom to pick up the slack and kick their 3-4 goals. Who can we rely on aside from Fritsch who will likely kick his 2 or 3 on Saturday?

 

There is no doubt we dont have good depth - and certainly nowhere that of the pies. Or for that matter of wc, tigers, cats or gws.

But to be realistic you need sustained success over 6-10 years to build good depth.

We're years off having good depth, which is another reason injuries have caused such havoc for us. 

A good comparison is the lions. If you took 9 of their best players from that side their lack of depth would be exposed.

Edited August 7, 2019 by binman

[dimmy 1,146]

5 hours ago, Redleg said:

Here it is:

MFC -  don't like rain.

THANKS.

[jumbo returns 6,546]

8 hours ago, Redleg said:

Here it is:

MFC -  don't like rain.

Oh dear....Saturday's forecast looks horrendous for us...cold, rain, hail, sleet!

[Sorry kids 635]

6 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

In addition Collingwood are consistently fielding a team 2 years older and 30 games more mature than us, despite the fact that we have Lewis and Jones by far our oldest and most experienced players pumping up our numbers. As noted above we're consistently fielding young inexperienced teams.

Sad.

[bing181 8,227]

On 8/6/2019 at 2:27 PM, spirit of norm smith said:

Out. Omcd wagner

in.  May Hore

Probably closest to the pin.

[bing181 8,227]

18 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Geez I would've thought after 21 weeks, the players would have built a bit of match fitness

You can't build fitness during the season. In fact, it's the reverse: as the season goes on, the more fatigue builds up.

Thus pre-seasons. That every club does. For a reason.

[Docs Demons 1,674]

2 hours ago, bing181 said:

You can't build fitness during the season. In fact, it's the reverse: as the season goes on, the more fatigue builds up.

Thus pre-seasons. That every club does. For a reason.

Lynch at the Tigers had no preseason and is building nicely !

[binman 39,088]

8 minutes ago, Docs Demons said:

Lynch at the Tigers had no preseason and is building nicely !

The old exception to the rule trick.

That's the third time I've fallen for that this week

[picket fence 15,559]

22 hours ago, chook fowler said:

I'll spew if OMac and Preuss play. Hore and May are certainties if fit. unbelievable decision not to play Hore last week - i have little faith in the selection process.

Little faith?? I have no faith in the machinations of selections and the management of our injuries! NIL

Joel Smith says HI!