Post Match Discussion - Round 12

[dimmy 1,307]

Firstly we have won 6 on a trot,so it only takes one loss and we are trading, dropping people everywhere.

We lost to a side who played out of their skins.

• Started in the middle where we did not get good clearance. (Had an inkling after Footscray). Sometimes I reckon "the Lab"on Fox talks a lot of  @#$%%, but tonight it was obvious when shown , so I presume our Brains Trust will use it in review or change some structure to over come that. That took Angus and Nibblers influence out of the game a bit. It also enabled Colling wood to get the ball into their areas with superior numbers.
• We missed a lot of 25-30 m passes that would have enabled us to open the game right up .. The problem (apart from the kicking)was that Collingwood ran in numbers because we "assumed the pass would come off (as it has recently).
• It is pretty easy to hit a 7 foot bloke with his hands in the air if you are kicking without pressure.
• Their mid field of Pendelbury, Sidebottom, Treloar , De Goey, Mayne ,Wells etc isn't too bad.
• A major reason for our loss though, was because Daisy Thomas ( according to that genius BT) was the boundary rider for Fox. There is a bloody difference between him and our Daisy !!! ( When are Ch 7 going to get a commentator who knows the people.
• Jetta thinks he is 6' 4"" ( and often plays like it !!!)
• Plugger Mac was tremendous . We should sign him up !!!
• We still kicked 91 points, which could have been improved with the missed passes reason.
• They kicked 127 points mainly through reasons 1,2,3&4
• Collingwood did actually play well

[Forest Demon 4,681]

Tom Lynch? I take it the poster hasn't watched the last couple of suns games? His "attitutude and performance" has stunk. He has already mentally checked out.

[deanox 9,922]

1 hour ago, deanox said:

A charmed umpire run in the first gave them a start, but Grundy beat Gawn in the ruck and we lost the clearances. Jones had a shocker, and the rest of the mids didn't lift. 

They had our structures covered and when we got it they consistently chopped off our usual avenues tho goal; worse they smashed us on the rebound, running harder the other way while we we're caught out of position. 

Finally, with Oscar off in the last quarter, they exploited our lack of height in defence.

 

Pedo gave us nothing with only 3 marks; worse I think he cost us structure and disrupted Hogan's game.  He won't play next week. 

Tyson is a chance given we struggled in the middle but I don't know who you drop.

Everytime we play bad Lewis looks slow and Vince looks sloppy but they play well in our wins so not sure if you drop them. 

Adding to this:

- Over the last 6 weeks we really clicked, playing football the way we want to. It has been great to get some consistency going with our game plan. 

- The opposition was not the best,  which is (in part) what allowed us to transfer our plan from training to game day

- Today we got found out tactically by a strong side who had been planning on beating us (there was a great post above about Collingwood manning up our anchor with a fast player, as one example)

- we now get to analyse how they did that and implement improvements and counters (better now than finals)

 

Also, we need to work out of we actually struggle at the G, or if it's coincidence. 

 

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

2 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

Tom Lynch? I take it the poster hasn't watched the last couple of suns games? His "attitutude and performance" has stunk. He has already mentally checked out.

Lynch has played one good game this year.

Hogan will be All Australian, despite a poor game today.

[Hot as Hell 466]

Just arrived home from the G.

Have had a little time to collect myself. I am not happy about today, but not gutted. I suspect most of the team feel similarly. 

We played a Collingwood side that was on. Really on. They did to us what we did to others over the last 6 weeks. Like a train full of steam they rolled relentlessly forward and made us look very ordinary. 

In an even competition, especially at the pointy end, there were always going to be days like this, much as we hoped they were behind us.

I don't want to single out any players. Many were down but the usual suspects held their end up. The coaches undoubtedly tried whatever they could, without success. 

For me, on the big stage with the footy world focused on us, we exposed our vulnerabilities to the comp. That will be costly. Other coaches will have noted our relative lack of speed, when we don't have the ball. We were hopelessly outpaced by most of their young midfield types.

Our game style works well when we have little pressure, but leaks opportunities to opposition mids and forwards when we are under the pump. 

Not much has really changed from the Hawthorn game, except we now have belief that the team is greater than the individual, and the team can be good. 

That newly acquired confidence does not always win games, but is a necessary ingredient to winning flags. 

Our time has not yet arrived. Both players and coaches are still learning. Today's experience is skin to losing a final. For us it was a final and we were found wanting. 

We get 10 more rounds to pick ourselves up, and work on what we were unable to do today. 

Then, if we are good enough, we will get another chance to play in real finals, where there is no next week. 

I admit to being a MFC tragic for nearly 6 decades. I believe we have a better collection of talent today, than we had in the late 80s and the 90s/00s relatively successful eras. 

Today's loss was a reality check, a lesson needed to be taught. It will haunt the players for many years that they failed when asked the question in 2018.

Have we not all been taught lessons like this, at sometime in our lives?

My face bears the signs of a life of experiences, many l wished not to have had. 

I would like to think my words and actions now reflect the lessons learned from those experiences. 

I for one, will cut this side a little of the slack they have earned without forgetting the lesson now taught. 

I look forward to meeting a few players tomorrow evening at a club event. It will not be a wake, but it will be a wake up call. 

Bring on Port Adelaide, they now have reason to be fearful of our lesson. 

[Deecisive 1,709]

the final score did not emphasise how bad we played. Collingwoods run out of defence which is an area we have tended to excel at did us in. our forwards except for Tom gave us very little. Pederson was a major disappointment, as were many others. we just do not get up for big games, when it counts we just dont turn up. We did it when after Jimmy Stynes dies, we did it last game last year against collingwood and we did it again today.  i dont know if these players just get ahead of themselves thinking they have this won, or just being lazy when then need to put their footdown. We were fortunate to only lose 10% in percentage it could have been more, lets hope that such a percentage loss does not come back to haunt us like it did last year. gutted again!

[Nasher 33,616]

Question for those who claim we still “haven’t beaten anyone”, what would you expect from 8-4? More of the 8 to be against good sides, and a bad loss or two against poor sides to make up the 4? 

Anyone who says now that they wouldn’t take 8-4 at the start of the season is flat out lying. We’re an imperfect side that put in an imperfect performance, against a team poised to smash us with it on the day. We aren’t going to smash everyone all the time.

Nothing but a speed hump for mine. The impact on my belief that this is a good, capable side is negligible.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

I get it, we move on....but

Why are we so overawed by a big occasion?

 

[Nasher 33,616]

1 minute ago, jumbo returns said:

I get it, we move on....but

Why are we so overawed by a big occasion?

 

Alternative theory: we’re not overawed and it had nothing to do with the occasion, and was just down to footballing less good than Collingwood today.

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

A small part of me is pleased we got a touch up going into the bye. We can give the Premiership and 'perfect list' stuff a rest for a couple of weeks and work our backsides off rather than drink our own bath water.

Theres no doubt the fixture has flattered us and we've got a few glaring holes to fill.

Not only do we desperately need a run-all-day wingman like Gaff but we desperately need midfielders with some pace. We love them, but get it outside of Oliver, Viney, Jones, Brayshaw etc and it's Christmas if you're a mid with some acceleration like Treloar, De Goey and Adams found today. We need a Shuey/Shiel type. Heck bring Aaron Hall in on the cheap. I hope Goodwin's obsession with contest doesn't see us miss a pacey outside type, who by their very nature are not strong at contested ball. The cake is built now and it's time to add some run and class.

With Lewis, Vince, Jetta and even Hibberd all closer to the end than than the beginning, and Wagner not exactly a dasher, we also need a few half back flankers that can run and kick.

Hopefully by the end of the season Hunt and Baker can provide a bit of dash. 

[layzie 33,805]

What can you say? We were massively shown up today. Collingwood were way too good. Smashed the clearances and ran hard and fast. We got burned by their pace so much it wasn’t funny. They were able to hit up open targets at will and heir skills were bang on. Every single time we looked like getting our game going they had the answer and held firm. They just wouldn’t budge, because of this it never ever felt like we were going to win.

Our ball movement has been something to salivate about lately, today was the first game for a while that we pretty much got a taste of our own medicine in that area. 

Nothing much more to say. They made mince meat out of us. And that all too familiar feeling of leaving the G after being beaten by Collingwood and dealing with those scummy fans. 

I’ll get my coat 

[Garbo 1,534]

Maybe to soon but time for Tyson, Stretch and Tim smith to come back, Frost to unfortunately we are just to small and once Oscar went down we had no chance.

Pedo is done in my books, did some ok things but the game has gone past him, think him playing fwd is part of the reason hogan had a stinker. 

Spargo back to the 2s good first year but time to stop mucking round and get ready for finals.

Harmes has had a good run but he’s keeping Tyson out who I think deserves another go

Joel Smith good efforts just to small to play on the 2nd fwd or 1st when Oscar is off 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Garbo

[dees189227 12,394]

Well just got home from the game. The way I saw it was collingwood were just to quick for us, they went up the middle all day, cox killed us, they had multiple goal kickers and shared it around, we over handballed in the first term, dropped simple marks lacked pressure, missed easy tackles and didn't have enough players kicking goals, some of our big name players didn't exist and again we were smashed in the clearances. 

Our midfield coach has a lot of work to do and viney on the radio after the game acknowledged its 2 weeks in a row we have been smashed in clearances. 

But this is a reality check. Im confident we will bounce back. Im not about to make ridiculous calls about trading players out or if goodwin is still the right guy. If we get thrashed by port in 2 weeks then I may ask questions. But its not time to over react. We have had a good 6 weeks. 

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

1 minute ago, jumbo returns said:

I get it, we move on....but

Why are we so overawed by a big occasion?

 

Because we treat it as such.

For the players and coaches today should not have been about the final round last year, should not have been about MND, or the 80K+ crowd, or moving to second on the ladder.  It should have been a game prepared for and executed like any other.

Dont get me wrong, blockbusters and fundraisers are great- but the big occasions make us approach games differently.

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

And Collingwood played very well.

[Devil In Disguise 2,278]

Why are the AFL so [censored] slow putting up the press conferences?

[jumbo returns 6,741]

6 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Alternative theory: we’re not overawed and it had nothing to do with the occasion, and was just down to footballing less good than Collingwood today.

Their pressure was intense

Why was deGooey running amok?

[jumbo returns 6,741]

4 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

And Collingwood played very well.

Yep - agree

[bing181 9,238]

1 hour ago, Elegt said:

our back line was too slow today with Lewis and xxx getting baths

Lewis? 33 disposals (most of any player on the field), 9 marks (equal most of any player on the field) and 8 rebound 50's (also highest of any player on the field) ... that Lewis?

[Demonised 1,354]

37 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Grundy only had 13 touches and took 1 mark for the whole day.  He beat him in the middle as the game wore on, but Gawny held him very well once the contest spread.

Grundy constantly grabbed, manhandled and dragged Max down, and none of the umpires were fussed by it.

[olisik 4,060]

Seems we struggle on the wide MCG when fast teams spread and we cannot keep up. Etihad works for us because it is in tight and our contested ball is enough as there is not much space to spread. Without being able to win on the MCG we will fail in finals

[Nasher 33,616]

Just now, jumbo returns said:

Their pressure was intense

Why was deGooey running amok?

I can’t answer that jumbo.

Just seems like Clayton’s logic to me, and I don’t mean Clarry. We were outplayed, and it was a big occasion, therefore we were outplayed because it was a big occasion. Dunno how you could draw that conclusion unless you were inside the players minds.

That said, I did see a number of fumbles and unclean disposals from young players like Smith and Spargo, but I don’t blame them for that. Collingwood played out of their skins, that’s for sure.

[—coach— 3,496]

Most of what I want to say has already been said so won’t repeat it:

- someone said it earlier in the thread that pedo looked to spoil/unbalance our forward line with Hogan being the one most affected (which I totally agree with) Last year I am not ashamed to admit I wanted him in the team badly early on when we had a few injuries and still reckon we would have won one more game last year had he been brought in earlier. Watching today, he should never play for us again unless In times of SERIOUS injury need. He gave nothing and was a serious liability costing us many a turnover.

- having said that when he went into the ruck I would say we improved our clearance rate. Not because he won the tap, but because we knew he would loose it. It seems to me we are very good at sharking it when we know with 100% certainly that we will not win the tap. When it’s a 50/50 you are preparing for two possible outcomes rather than one. Last year QB when Gawn was absent, we lost the hit outs 65/14 but equaled the clearances 35 apiece. Round 23 we won the hit outs with Gawn playing (24/37)but lost the clearances (34/31). This year lost the tap (35/47) and got beat up on clearances (26/45). Remember we also had an equal record of wins versus losses when Gawn was and wasn’t playing last year, as such I would like to see us have the confidence to leave Gawn out of the ruck for longer periods of time occasionally at strategic times like we could have done today after half time rather than just assume we are better with him there always.

others may disagree but just my 2 cents after a loss which looked a lot like round 23 last year

[Adam The God 30,259]

2 hours ago, bing181 said:

They brought the intensity, we didn't.

We didn't handle Cox - though not sure what the solution was in any case - but it was losing around the clearances that's the biggest concern. Probably look at Tyson in, but we needed more from the likes of Harmes and Petracca for starters, as well as bigger games from the likes of Jones and Viney. Brayshaw seems to have been sacrificed to keep Tom Phillips quiet, which worked, but then we lost his outside run and disposal.

I also just don't see Pedersen's place here going forward, would rather put time into Weideman - and I wonder if Vince mightn't have played his last game in the Red and Blue? It's not just that he's slowing down, one of his trump cards was his smarts and disposal, but that seems to be going backwards by the week. Problem there though is who replaces him? Wagner? Petty?

Still, I for one would have taken 8 and 4 at the turnaround, let's see if we can use this to learn from and regroup.

I did think a few times that I could picture Lever coming across and spoiling, third man up against Cox. So that would have helped. But we also allowed the Collingwood forward entries into Cox to be un-pressured. And when that happens, the ball should be kicked to the advantage of the forward. When that forward is Ted Cassidy, there aren't many ways to stop that, except pressure the kick into him. Needless to say, we didn't.

Agree with Weideman over Pedersen too. And I also agree with the Vince conundrum. I don't want to see Harry come in just yet, so maybe it's Wagner. Kicking-wise, they're pretty comparable. 

2 hours ago, Webber said:

I hate to say it, but the media were right about today being a season defining game. It was the big stage audition, to prove if either team have what it takes. The answer couldn't have been more emphatic. Once more we have been exposed as frauds. And the most depressing thing is that it's one of the surest truths in football. Collingwood, at least half a dozen players short of their best 22, beat us in every facet of the game, and we apparently have a talent-rich list, and great depth. In the space of one game, our aspirations have been exposed as substance-less.  

Yes and no on this one, mate. We failed a big exam today, but we still have solid percentage and a game up our sleeve, which will at least keep us in the 8 over the bye. We might just be able to put this one down to tiring legs and exhaustion. Why Collingwood didn't suffer from this is the frustration for me. 

But there's plenty of time this season to make up for this weak and tepid performance. I just hate that we didn't bring it against an average football team, who played out of their skin. I don't think I've ever watched a Buckley-coached side play as well as we let them play today.

2 hours ago, wheaters31 said:

Coaches and players were out-smarted. Completely beaten on the spread. Looked tired late. Need to utilise the bye to learn how this happened, and come up with ways to combat the strategies the Pies used, because no doubt, our opposition over the next few weeks will be looking to this game to show how we can be beaten easily.

Particularly, as it was very similar to how we lost against Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond. Utilise the short chipping game to compress our press and then go quickly over it. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by A F

[olisik 4,060]

1 minute ago, bing181 said:

Lewis? 33 disposals (most of any player on the field), 9 marks (equal most of any player on the field) and 8 rebound 50's (also highest of any player on the field) ... that Lewis?

He deliberately falls over when his tired so he can have a breather.