Post Match Discussion: JLT #2 vs St. Kilda

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

7 hours ago, DemonAndrew said:

good post overall, but not sure this is right; jones effectively played outside the entire game and has done that the entire year - i think our plan a starting square combo is gawn, oliver, viney and tyson, with jones becoming a wingman in 2018

in terms of disposal count, i'd rather be efficient as we were than over-possess it like they did

there's no way for mine that vince and hannan don't play - both are such good users of the ball and generally speaking hard as nails; i'm constantly amazed by how tough hannan is for a bloke who looks so slight

Interesting. Jones I put in more as a placeholder. It seems to me they play a similar sort of role, and I reckon whoever gets more minutes in the guts gets the bigger stats... So Tyson played more minutes this time... does that mean that's his role all year? I think once the angry stuff starts, Jones is the guy that goes in, and goes in for whole games. He really is a better player overall than Tyson. (Not that I'm not a Tyson fan) The original Plan A/Plan B point was more about what happens with Oliver and Viney... When do they go in, what happens when they're not in, for how long do we keep them in before we risk them breaking down... and also how do we lessen the damage caused when they're not in. If a side as bad as what the Saints were at half time can put a run on like that... then we have a serious problem going into this season. I feel like we have our starting 3 in there... Jones, Viney, Oliver.... next 3 Tracca, Tyson, ANB... Then a smattering of Salem, Harmes, Lewis, Stretch and Maynard... Maybe Hogan here and there.... If you look at those tiers... one is scary... the next isn't. And the part timers aren't at all.

Sure, efficiency is great when you have it. But we're not the most skilled team in the comp. Also we went for a lot of torps... partly because of conditions. No way we use those bombs in the proper season. I'm not complaining necessarily that we had less touches... but I am very interested.... Last year we were one of the really high possession sides. What are the implications now? Has Goody changed things seriously or was he rolling with a specific game plan just for JLT. I find it interesting and stimulating.

I love Vince. Love him. Have never understood the Vince hate. I just find it really hard in the current 22 to fit them all in. I feel like Hunt is too important and has too many strengths not to play, even though he hasn't done much so far. Braysh as well I think is borderline, but has probably done enough. Stretch, as I said, I'm just still unsure on. But I think his dash will open things up, as long as he can give 4 quarters. He's apparently covered himself in glory the whole pre season, so my gut feel is he'll get the nod.

Hannan I'm not quite as much with you. We have so many of these small forwards, high half forwards. Hannan does some miraculous things... but drifts out of games for whole halves at a time. I feel like he and Harmes are quite similar. I have been saying it for a while, there is nothing on a football field Harmes can't do. Literally has every skill you'd want, like a Stevie J. Does he put them all together? yes... sometimes... he's had some massive dominant games with all round stats like tackling, forward pressure, goal kicking accuracy... and he can defend like the dickens for a whole game if you need. It's funny he has Watts' number cos I think he'll be up and down the ground like Watts was. I feel like Hannan, as much as he's a good player... Harmes has a similar role up forward and brings a huge amount to the table. I feel like Fritsch will be given two weeks to make an impact. If he gets bundled out of contests by mature bodies in either, Hannan comes in for him.

[rjay 24,983]

3 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

I feel like we have our starting 3 in there... Jones, Viney, Oliver....

For me the starting 3 includes Tyson/Petracca as a point of difference.

Viney/Jones are both bulls but they don't have the strength (yes Viney can bench press etc) & power of the bigger bodies. It's pure physics in the end.

Tyson in particular either extracts or locks down where sometimes bigger opponents get an advantage over the other 2.

An even spread works better for me.

 

 

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Just now, rjay said:

For me the starting 3 includes Tyson/Petracca as a point of difference.

Viney/Jones are both bulls but they don't have the strength (yes Viney can bench press etc) & power of the bigger bodies. It's pure physics in the end.

Tyson in particular either extracts or locks down where sometimes bigger opponents get an advantage over the other 2.

An even spread works better for me.

 

 

Wow. I've been missing from Dland for a while now, only check in here and there. Is that what people think now?

Each to their own I guess. For me, Viney is just about the strongest physical mid in the team. Oliver is more skilled, Tracca physically just a beast. But Viney, one on one, goes against the best and biggest in the comp and almost never loses (when fit). I have an eye on round 1, and a fit running Viney goes to Selwood and shadows him all day. There's half the job done. Tyson all year last year got ploeaxed in the media and by the fans. I reckon he's a superb little hard worker... but his skill, engine and general football brain are a notch down from Viney, Jones and Oliver. Put simply, Viney, Jones and Oliver are the best pure mids. Tyson not far off. Tracca I don't want to see in the midfield for more than a quarter and a bit. That boot is a thing of beauty in the forward line. He is a contested marking gun. I want him more or less playing CHF.

But that's just my own opinion. I see what you mean about having some flexibility in there. Can't have three of the same breed of footballer... but like I say, I think it's Danger, Selwood and potentially Ablett... but if not, Duncan... And all 4 are absolutely scary-good midfielders. I like to meet them head on with 3 battering rams. Selwood we have the answer for.... Danger though... I just dunno how you stop him.

[DeeSpencer 25,723]

15 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

 

- one other gameplan thing. How do you outplay a team for 3 quarters and get 50 less disposals? Saints were switching a lot and we went the torp. But still...

 

That was one of the highlights of the game. No longer as we handballing ourselves crazy around in circles and instead we are making other teams do that.

We are a side designed to move the ball with kicking. We aren't a run and carry handball team. So the ratio of kick to handball should be much closer to 1:1 with some extra handballs around the clearances when needed. 

For the first half we had the same amount of kicks as the Saints and far less handballs. That's good efficient footy.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

22 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

That was one of the highlights of the game. No longer as we handballing ourselves crazy around in circles and instead we are making other teams do that.

We are a side designed to move the ball with kicking. We aren't a run and carry handball team. So the ratio of kick to handball should be much closer to 1:1 with some extra handballs around the clearances when needed. 

For the first half we had the same amount of kicks as the Saints and far less handballs. That's good efficient footy.

They're also very pooey the Saints. I feel like you get to kick long if you're not under pressure. Against, say, the Cats... we'll be under pressure and doing the old backwards handball when we look up the field and don't see options.

[Gator 17,383]

1 hour ago, Dappa Dan said:

Wow. I've been missing from Dland for a while now, only check in here and there. Is that what people think now?

Each to their own I guess. For me, Viney is just about the strongest physical mid in the team. Oliver is more skilled, Tracca physically just a beast. But Viney, one on one, goes against the best and biggest in the comp and almost never loses (when fit). I have an eye on round 1, and a fit running Viney goes to Selwood and shadows him all day. There's half the job done. Tyson all year last year got ploeaxed in the media and by the fans. I reckon he's a superb little hard worker... but his skill, engine and general football brain are a notch down from Viney, Jones and Oliver. Put simply, Viney, Jones and Oliver are the best pure mids. Tyson not far off. Tracca I don't want to see in the midfield for more than a quarter and a bit. That boot is a thing of beauty in the forward line. He is a contested marking gun. I want him more or less playing CHF.

But that's just my own opinion. I see what you mean about having some flexibility in there. Can't have three of the same breed of footballer... but like I say, I think it's Danger, Selwood and potentially Ablett... but if not, Duncan... And all 4 are absolutely scary-good midfielders. I like to meet them head on with 3 battering rams. Selwood we have the answer for.... Danger though... I just dunno how you stop him.

Jones has said a number of times this preseason that he'll be playing more of an outside role (wing) with stints forward and even occasionally in defence.

Our best centre square set up is Viney, Oliver, Petracca.

Next best centre square mids are Tyson, Brayshaw, Jones and Salem (in no particular order).

Edited March 9, 2018 by ProDee

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Just now, ProDee said:

Jones has said a number of times this preseason that he'll be playing more of an outside role with stints forward and even occasionally in defence.

Our best centre square set up is Viney, Oliver, Petracca.

Next best centre square mids are Tyson, Brayshaw, Jones and Salem (in no particular order).

Well [censored]. That sucks.

I'll point out, of course, that they say this for so many aging footballers. Ablett's a good example. Says he'll play more outside, or forward or whatever... then the [censored] hits the fan and he's dragged back into the guts in about round 8, and they go on a 4 run winning streak. I fully anticipating that to happen once our younger mids start to tire.

Nice midfield ranking, particularly with Brayshaw. A lot of people will carry on saying he needs to find another role... He's a wonderful midfielder though.

No room for ANB? Melksham?

[whatwhat say what 22,783]

I’d go midfield order ranking of Oliver, Viney, Tyson as the preferred three, then Salem, Petracca, Jones, ANB, Lewis, Hogan and Hannan rotating in as required 

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

1 minute ago, DemonAndrew said:

I’d go midfield order ranking of Oliver, Viney, Tyson as the preferred three, then Salem, Petracca, Jones, ANB, Lewis, Hogan and Hannan rotating in as required 

That's interesting. Probably deserves it's own thread, this. I remember forming an idea of our midfield last year when it became clear to me after about 2 weeks that Oliver is the finest midfielder to wear a demons jersey in my lifetime at his age, and projects to be the finest we've ever had even if he doesn't improve. I got to thinking where do each of them rate, in what order, and in specific roles where do they rate. I've never done that before. We've never had a midfield to warrant the discussion.

[Willmoy1947 4,099]

1 hour ago, Dappa Dan said:

That's interesting. Probably deserves it's own thread, this. I remember forming an idea of our midfield last year when it became clear to me after about 2 weeks that Oliver is the finest midfielder to wear a demons jersey in my lifetime at his age, and projects to be the finest we've ever had even if he doesn't improve. I got to thinking where do each of them rate, in what order, and in specific roles where do they rate. I've never done that before. We've never had a midfield to warrant the discussion.

We've had several, sparse though, and going back a few years, and the ruck used to be included.........

[Deemania since 56 6,658]

5 hours ago, DeezNuts said:

I suppose we can now stack up a suitable forward line and backline to match the likely opposition now. Some weeks frost and Omac will be in, other times Garlett and Harmes will be out. We really do have a nice luxury at the moment. So the question is, based on Geelongs B22, which players stack up to exploit them?

I think all of our currently fit players might well stack up against Geelong. Certainly our team game will confound them for some time. Tom Hawkins rips us apart, mostly. That is going to be our main area of concern with Geelong's delivery system. I'd slow him down a little in terms of his own personal tactics to win the ball with a radical trial of '...he who can take a knock, push, punch and body slam...', namely Pedo! Pedo can also bring the ball to ground and his mass is ideal. There are elites around Pedo who can play the ball out from there. 

[Bonkers 994]

8 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

I posted this during the game thread and our wonderful Demonland host replied that our forward entry had been woeful for the quarter:

It is from the AFL game day website and is speaking about the third quarter:

"Despite the Demons winning the inside 50 count 16-12 in that third quarter, it was the Saints who found their efficiency, having ten shots on goal from their entries for a result of 6.3 (39)."

That stat is so worrying on so many fronts but most damning of our coaching staff. We had plenty of the ball but failed to adopt our game plan to take advantage of our possessions. The four St Kilda goals in the first quarter ... a quarter in which we had total domination was also a concern.

It was a practice game but those two faults are the ones we should have been practising as we often failed in these areas in seasons past.

Watching on tv I thought that the kicking inside 50 that quarter was just long bombs mostly to the top of the square. Either the forwards weren't leading to space, players kicking the ball I50 weren't looking for shorter options or both. It looked like lazy careless football to me. Others have commented we had our 3rd string midfield at centre bounces, but I think if the delivery was more effiecient we could have matched the saints that qtr. In the final quarter they moved the ball a lot better and lowered their eyes to hit up shorter targets.

[monoccular 17,432]

21 hours ago, mdemon said:

Pleasing hit out - no injuries of any significance.

Confirmation that Maynard, Wagner (and possibly Stretch) are not starting 22.

Bernie with a 1 year contract probably realises now that it is a final contract.

Skill & intensity of Hannan and (potentially) Fritsch eases the pain of Watts' absence.

Versatility of Pedersen highlighted - more critical than many think.

What pain?  Lack of intensity was (presumably) the principal reason for him being moved on.  

[bing181 9,246]

2 hours ago, Bonkers said:

Others have commented we had our 3rd string midfield at centre bounces

We did. After the last Saints' goal, later in the quarter, the centre bounce had Oliver, Petracca and Salem. We won that one, got it down to the forward line quickly for a behind, and followed up with a goal.

Saints' won ALL the centre bounces prior to that, except for one where we had Oliver in.

[deelete my account 1,194]

This may sound premature but perhaps the calls for Hunt to play on wing or in middle may be premature. He still does seem to look like a defender through and through, and like Frost, seems to be more of a straight-line runner. Doesn't seem like a 360 degree player as of yet. But that's really only two JLT games. He's a scintillating player but he could be one of a handful feeling the pressure to hold down a spot, if he doesn't get back to his best within the first few rounds (Though every player has to hold down a spot too)

Edited March 9, 2018 by Doodle Dee

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

7 hours ago, dl4e said:

I don't think Bugg was off pace but yes his 2 missed goals along with many times last year means something.

He had the yips for a period last year (kicked 4 points vs NM from memory?) but also kicked some handy goals one in particular against the Crows to start our avalanche when we were down by 4 goals.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

7 minutes ago, Doodle Dee said:

This may sound premature but perhaps the calls for Hunt to play on wing or in middle may be premature. He still does seem to look like a defender through and through, and like Frost, seems to be more of a straight-line runner. Doesn't seem like a 360 degree player as of yet. But that's really only two JLT games. He's a scintillating player but he could be one of a handful feeling the pressure to hold down a spot, if he doesn't get back to his best within the first few rounds (Though every player has to hold down a spot too)

I think he's just learning how to deal with more attention.  In the past he's been able to fly under the radar a little, but he is getting more attention from the opposition who are looking to stop his run anyway they can.  Once he, and those around him, learn how to break that and get him free then he'll be a better player for it.  He just may need a little time to get there.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

4 hours ago, willmoy said:

We've had several, sparse though, and going back a few years, and the ruck used to be included.........

We've never had a champion midfielder since I've been watching (1988)

[BrisbaneDemon 1,572]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We've never had a champion midfielder since I've been watching (1988)

Woewodin won a Brownlow for us in 2000, that makes him a champion midfielder....

[Bang Bang Bang 5,826]

9 hours ago, Glenn Molloy said:

He said that because he still finds himself defending the deal that got us Tyson and Salem and got them Kelly (I know there were other pieces to the puzzle but that's the key one).  Tyson was outstanding in year one for us but I'd call him handy since then rather than outstanding...played a few outstanding games but not in our best 10.  Best 22, yes.

Ahead of him are Oliver, Gawn, Jones, Jetta, Lever, Viney, TMac, Hibberd for sure. Petracca would probably be next. Then you have Tyson, just ahead of Lewis and Garlett, in my opinion.

Three top 10 B&F finishes in four seasons ain't bad.

 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,876]

19 minutes ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

Woewodin won a Brownlow for us in 2000, that makes him a champion midfielder....

Priddis also won a Brownlow. You’d have a hard time finding anyone who would call him a champion midfielder. 

[whatwhat say what 22,783]

i started really supporting the dees about 85. 86. and since then i reckon i could count the champion midfielders we've had with one hand - maybe even just two fingers, in flower and stynes, and i only saw the tail end of robbie's career

players that i thought would become 'champion' mids - i.e. constantly in discussion for all australian if not brownlow contention - but for a variety of reasons never quite did:

• travis johnstone
• glenn lovett
• shane woewodin
• stephen tingay
• todd viney
• nathan jones

players that i think could from our current crop:

• oliver
• petracca
• viney
• salem

that's what is exciting about our playing list at the moment; we have four players with elite potential

and i'd personally argue oliver is already there - clearly the best inside mid we've had in a long, long time

[RalphiusMaximus 6,076]

A couple of points I want to raise. 

Petracca is a beast.  At one point he had two saints laying on his back with the ball trapped under his torso.  He pushed up the weight of three people then held them off the ground with one arm while he punched the ball out with the other.  The kid is absurdly powerful

Hannan looked good as a mid.  He has a low accurate kick that sliced through traffic and hit targets consistently.  Used it to set up multiple forward thrusts.  This as much as his work as a small forward will keep him in the side. 

[puntkick 325]

13 hours ago, old dee said:

You have my vote.

You don't have to vote after 75 years of age doya ?

[Salems Lot 2,535]

I rate Nugget incredibly highly for what he has done for the club over the last 10 years not to mention his proven ability but as our team/squad progresses I am reminded of Richie Vandenberg, a great servant to a club that went past him in quality to the extent where there was no place for him in the team.

I don't believe that time has arrived yet but I do believe that it is not far off.  I think we look at No.2 and question his input because of where the team is at these days rather than where he is at. Simply put there are several better players in the team these days which from a club perspective can only be a good thing whereas in the past he was our best player by far.

To become a better team our new/young players have to be better than our older players; that seems to be happening.