POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 10

[Gator 17,332]

16 minutes ago, Danelska said:

I think its to do with whether you have a supportive stance and can relate to the notion of development and are the type to forgive errors in the short term - vs those who see things in black and white, who want instant gratification and that the only place to develop is in the VFL as opposed to the context of developing skills under high pressure contexts. Also these same people are just really tired of mediocrity and are anxious about the future...

I like to critique a performance on the actual performance.  If it's great it's great, if it's OK it's OK, if it's diabolical it's diabolical.

There are threads about development, potential, things a player does well, things a player doesn't do well, etc.

I'll give balance to an assessment in these types of threads.  In a post-match discussion, which is merely to assess performance, I'll critique accordingly.  If a player was woeful, like Oscar, I see no point gilding the lily.  Watts was pathetic in the first half and very good in the second.  See how it works ?

There are enough threads to assess a player's long-term viability, but in a thread dedicated to assessing performance some like to assess performance.

[demon-4-life 467]

On 2017-5-28 at 7:56 AM, Skuit said:

WattsTF? Think they may have confused a couple of Hannan's efforts as Jack's

Mmm...I think you might need to watch the game again.

Watts kicked 1 goal.  Should have had 2.  He also had 3 goal assists.  He also had a clever tap to Harmes that led to a goal.  And he crashed the pack to allow Garlett to run on to another goal.  

That's at least 6 goals he was a part of.  If not more.  Solid game.  

[Jaded No More 68,905]

23 hours ago, Redleg said:

IMO Stretch would have loved it yesterday, as the game was often open and he could have used his disposal skills to set us up with shots at goal.

I don't understand why he is not getting a game. 

We have so many who are dreadful with the ball in hand. Even Lewis had a bad one early and couldn't find a target, not to mention that pathetic one handed attempt at a mark, which if it was Watts or someone like him, would have been called out as scared.

This!

So many plodders with average disposal are getting games, but Stretch is being wasted in the VFL. I'm sure they sent him there to work on some particular aspects of his game, but who here can honestly say that even on a bad day, his kicking isn't 200 times better than Bugg, Harmes, ANB etc... hell his kicking is better than 95% of the players in our team. 

Without Salem in the team, I was so sure they'd recall Stretch. I'm bemused. 

Can't handle Bugg anymore, he has the arrogance of a Brownlow Medallist, and the skills of an under 10's. Back to the VFL! 

[AzzKikA 2,371]

On 5/27/2017 at 10:38 PM, The Reverend said:

Never in doubt! When we got to 30 points down, I went out and put a rack of lamb in the weber. Came back in a little while later and we were in front. Was I surprised? Nah... staggered more like it. Those who are negative about this win need to think back to not so long ago when a 30 point deficit would have turned into a 90 point debacle. Those days seem to be behind us. Praise the Lord! GO DEES!

At that point i thought to myself, I hope they beat us by 100 points, that's what they deserve.

[Age 485]

2 hours ago, Pates said:

I don't think there's anyone at the club happier to have the bye. He's been rucking so much more than expected and he's held his own, but he must be nursing some pretty sore legs. Having said that in the third quarter he was one that really helped turn it for us. He wasn't brilliant but he was competitive when he needed to be and mostly pretty clean. 

He's still one of our best ball users even when he's having an off night. 

I reckon he might be carrying a groin/maybe OP type thing. Is getting pushed off the ball a bit of late and if it is a groin thing, you lose some of your power which could explain the easy push offs. 

[binman 42,899]

My final word OMac. I promise. Because i admit I've been more than a bit repetitive. 

If OMac is actually playing as badly as some posters are claiming, and in particular his game on the weekend - 'actually the worst player in the league', 'Oscar would be near to the worst player in the comp. Would not get a game in any other team',  'He was spectacularly woeful', 'He is so far off the pace of an AFL standard key defender it's not funny', 'he needs more time to develop, in the twos' etc etc - they will not select him against Collingwood. Full stop. Goodwin has made it crystal clear since he taken over that NO player will be selected unless they play their assigned role, play with the required intensity and competitiveness and earn their spot.

Sure development is important but at this level they are not going to play a player who is not at AFL standard and who is not playing their role to at least an acceptable level. It is absurd to suggest they would. 

We should have Spencer back and possibly Hogan. They only have one tall forward and he is just a young fella. So two talls are not required. Salem has to come back so someone has to be dropped. If they really want another big defender, Pederson can go back. The team will be well rested, they have multiple fit players to bring in, don't need his height and they won't want to take any passengers into a critical game for our season And one likely to be played in front of 70, 000 people). If they are ever going to drop him it this this week. The 'no other option' palaver makes no sense in this context and i hope that line is not trotted out by posters if he does get selected. 

As Ted Fidge has said they have the opportunity to let him continue his development in the twos. They can then give him an extended run in the twos to continue his development. As they have done with Weideman. And i can only assume those that are so scathing of him think they should indeed drop him.

Now i might prove to be wrong - and if so i will acknowledge my error - but i don't think they will drop him. And if they don't it should be a clear message to fans that the club believe he is indeed playing his role to the required standard.

So lets see what Goodwin's verdict on OMac is. I for one will be more than happy to accept his assessment of OMac. I wonder if others will.

Edited May 29, 2017 by binman

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Sorry but in the 1st Q we played so much better than them, had it locked in our forward half for most of the quarter, that is playing well in anyone's book.  We didn't put scoreboard pressure on and that hurt us, doesn't mean doom & gloom.

It has been said already but several missed shots in the 2nd also hurt us, but they were in great positions after some great forward pressure, so instead of just seeing the miss, try seeing how the shot came to be in the first place.

It is easy to stay negative about everything in life, especially when it is comfortable, I am guilty of it often, but you can never enjoy the wins if you don't break the cycle.  Like i just said in an earlier post, I had given up on them when we were 30 points down, I believed we deserved a drumming for the way we were playing because GC were kicking goals but we were not. I still believe it wasn't the worst performance of the year.

[Demon Jack 6,907]

I just watched the third quarter (figured I could skip the first half. I'll watch the final quarter tonight). Here are some things I noticed.

- Jack Watts was very important in turning the side. I counted him taking two or three very good contested marks and just being involved around the ground. As mentioned earlier, he's been really pushing himself hard this season as he's been forced to play as a part-time ruckman for the majority of the year. No wonder he looks sore and out of puff. If anyone is going to benefit from the return of Gawn (or even Spencer), It'll be Watts.

- While Watts was important in our comeback, its impossible to not mention Nathan Jones who possibly played one of the best quarters of football of his career. I figured that it was worth mentioning that Jones currently has 10 goals for the season which is equal to what he kicked during the whole of 2016. He's having another good season and could very well be a smokey for his fourth B&F, provided he can get past Oliver and maybe Hibberd.

- I really like James Harmes as a forward. He doesn't have the height to play as a key forward but he can provide a contest. He kicked the ball very well yesterday as well. How about the bullet pass to Nathan Jones for his first goal? Definitely something to work with there.

- ANB was a very good inclusion. Looked very comfortable as more of a full time midfielder. His disposal was good as well.

- Much prefer Melksham as a midfielder. Could very well have played one of the best games of his career. He was key in shutting down Aaron Hall as well who absolutely tore us apart in the first half.

- I like Wagner. I think he can become a Hibberd type player after a another couple of pre-seasons. There were a couple of moments where he really put his body on the line in a marking contest. He may not get much love around here, but he'll get another game against Collingwood in a couple of weeks.

- Whenever we would bomb the ball long into the 50, it would be cut off by either May or Leslie. As soon as we started to lower our eyes and began to hit up targets into our forward 50, the game started to turn our way. 

Looking forward to watching the final quarter tonight!

[Jaded No More 68,905]

I wish someone had the time to bring up the posts from Frawley's early days... some absolute pearlers in there! 

[beelzebub 23,350]

It's interesting to note the various camps we posters reposit.

There's an idiom..What is..IS    This is my trunk to which i attach any branches.  Scorelines , win, losses are only a projection of what is...not what might have been. If only Freddy had kicked that goal(s) if we'd had 5 mins longer..if we'd beaten the Whosawattits...then we'd be such and such on the ladder.....on...on...and on.

All that is a form of denial. As PD purports the litmus...or the true currency is performance.  If someone is fluffing it ...well, they're fluffing it...No point saying they are fluffing it 2 times a game less than last year.. A Fluff is still a fluff. It makes them a fluffer and not an accomplished or reliably able player.

There are players simply getting a game, because..A)  the FD has tried most everyone else..no shining light yet and/or B) No viable alternative.

It's moot to suggest ( imho ) that a player MUST be AFL standard as he is getting a game. There are roles to play in the game plan. Not all of any list are groomed for them. Suggest that as a player is selected he must be AFL standard is akin to passing someone with a D grade. Yes technically not a fail...hardly an accomplishment !!

What exactly DOES AFL standard mean ? It's thrown around like a hot spud really.  All it means is the bloke is capable of taking the field at that level. It really offers no qualification to what will happen in so doing.

Without doubt players get gigs before time or as part of ongoing development. Opportunity is often the key to a players success. We all like the "stories" of that Bloke who sneaked into a team  and ripped the game apart. Yeah I like them too but they are rare as hens teeth. More often players get a shot, another, and sometimes another because when the FD looks down the list there's no one behind said Bloke.

I'm reminded of the way many subjects' exams are graded. Some are purely subjective ( don't you love the arts ..lol )  and the more technically orientated ones often have a pure result standardised. This to suit enrollments and fundings and agendas.  What IS...wis you got 76/100  you got 43/100 you got 100/100  ( or even 105/100 )    . What happens is the more desperate to fill campuses take the 45/100  the 50/100  as that's invariably all there's to choose from. In some eye's view that makes them tertiary standard. Life will show otherwise.

Footy isn't a lot different. Yes some do like to score performances entirely upon what they actually did...not colour it with excuses. Scoreboards don't understand excuses. A season is defined by the games and the games are outcomed ONLY by the score. ( arguably overly influenced by umpires' and league's agendas to 'rules' I'll allow )

 

[mo64 5,874]

10 minutes ago, Jaded said:

I wish someone had the time to bring up the posts from Frawley's early days... some absolute pearlers in there! 

I assume you're relating this to the negative criticisms of O Mac. In Frawley's case, in his first 3 seasons at the club, we won a total of 12 games. that's hard going for a young key defender. It's fair to say that every player was copping a whacking, including Nathan Jones.

Frawley was an All Australian in his 4th year. I just don't see that level of improvement in O Mac.

[jnrmac 20,058]

13 hours ago, DominatrixTyson said:

I know Oscar played a decent game and this is nitpicky, but i would just once like to see him dissapointed with himself over a poor kick/turn over. Just looks like he accepts it as part of his game and doesn't look like he strongly desires to make amends. Of course no point dwelling on mistakes too long either.

He didn't play a decent game. He is a liability at present and only getting games because of his height. On my list of issues I have with Oscar I am going to add awareness because I am peeved the number of times he holds on to the ball a split second too loing and has his kick smothered or is tackled.

He may well turn into a decent defender but at present we are playing a man down.

[P-man 13,366]

Someone commented that it could've been a breakout game for ANB. It's an interesting one given he didn't feature highly in the POTY votes, yet I'm half inclined to agree.

Granted the opposition was not top 8 calibre, but he is starting to look increasingly comfortable at the level. The biggest slight on him imo was that he often looked rushed in his decisonmaking, but It looks like something has clicked and he now realises he has a more time than he thought and so is looking a lot neater with his disposal as a result. The way he was weaving through traffic on more than one occasion was also pretty exciting to watch.

It shouldn't be that surprising given he was highly touted as a draftee and considered by some as a steal at the time. Hopefully it isn't a false dawn and he can continue to build from here.

[jnrmac 20,058]

20 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

These games must be a Tax Break for the NT Govt. It is the only way they can be justified at all. 

What is our latest NT Membership Figure. 

Last one i remember a few years back was about 40 Members...

eerrrr really? Governments don't pay tax if you hadn't noticed. They levy tax.

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

Just now, jnrmac said:

eerrrr really? Governments don't pay tax if you hadn't noticed. They levy tax.

 

State Govts have tax structures with the Federal Govt

[P-man 13,366]

Re the quality of the first half, I think it was more the second quarter that was most disappointing. I'm sure the time in forward half, forward 50 tackles etc would stack up well for the first quarter, especially considering the extent of the breeze towards the Suns goal. We just weren't able to convert with kicks falling short and then failed to use the wind to our advantage in the second.

Footskills were decidedly poor in the first half, but the workrate around the ball especially in the first quarter was okay. That may be what Goodwin was referring to when he says they were reasonably happy.

This is just my recollection in the cold light of day. I have no desire to go back and watch the first half again to confirm.

[jnrmac 20,058]

31 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

State Govts have tax structures with the Federal Govt

What does that mean? Governments don't pax. Full stop.

[Go the Biff 3,414]

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

I couldn't bring myself to watch the first half again, but I watched the second and you notice things you missed the first time around..................

I reckon you should watch the first half again. Viewed dispassionately I suspect you'll find it was nowhere as bad as you thought it was live and in the heat of the moment. At quarter time both Lynch & Brereton thought we were playing the better footy. The second quarter was a tale of missed opportunities. Wayward shots at goal and bombed forward entries that gave Jack Leslie a picnic taking marks behind Tom McDonald. Don't underestimate the impact that the wind had on the game until the 10 minute mark of the third quarter when it dropped to a zephyr. Have another look and see if you notice things you missed the first time around.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

42 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

What does that mean? Governments don't pax. Full stop.

They get Tax exemptions that amount to the same thing. 

Why else would the NT agree to such a Junket, which is what it is??

Edited May 29, 2017 by Sir Why You Little

[Dr. Gonzo 24,208]

3 hours ago, Ted Fidge said:

Dermott is your classic ex-player commentator. Doesn't put in the work, doesn't know the players, doesn't keep up with trends.

And who's going to contradict what he says? He's got the ultimate comeback: "you didn't play at the highest level, what would you know?"

Money for jam.

Started pissing myself when they were discussing our tactic of extra defenders coming off the square and rolling forward.

Dermott "first time I ever saw that was Geelong in the last quarter of the '89 Grand Final" all he does is reminisce about his good ol' days.

[binman 42,899]

2 hours ago, Demon Jack said:

I just watched the third quarter (figured I could skip the first half. I'll watch the final quarter tonight). Here are some things I noticed.

- Jack Watts was very important in turning the side. I counted him taking two or three very good contested marks and just being involved around the ground. As mentioned earlier, he's been really pushing himself hard this season as he's been forced to play as a part-time ruckman for the majority of the year. No wonder he looks sore and out of puff. If anyone is going to benefit from the return of Gawn (or even Spencer), It'll be Watts.

- While Watts was important in our comeback, its impossible to not mention Nathan Jones who possibly played one of the best quarters of football of his career. I figured that it was worth mentioning that Jones currently has 10 goals for the season which is equal to what he kicked during the whole of 2016. He's having another good season and could very well be a smokey for his fourth B&F, provided he can get past Oliver and maybe Hibberd.

- I really like James Harmes as a forward. He doesn't have the height to play as a key forward but he can provide a contest. He kicked the ball very well yesterday as well. How about the bullet pass to Nathan Jones for his first goal? Definitely something to work with there.

- ANB was a very good inclusion. Looked very comfortable as more of a full time midfielder. His disposal was good as well.

- Much prefer Melksham as a midfielder. Could very well have played one of the best games of his career. He was key in shutting down Aaron Hall as well who absolutely tore us apart in the first half.

- I like Wagner. I think he can become a Hibberd type player after a another couple of pre-seasons. There were a couple of moments where he really put his body on the line in a marking contest. He may not get much love around here, but he'll get another game against Collingwood in a couple of weeks.

- Whenever we would bomb the ball long into the 50, it would be cut off by either May or Leslie. As soon as we started to lower our eyes and began to hit up targets into our forward 50, the game started to turn our way. 

Looking forward to watching the final quarter tonight!

Good post and i agree with all your points.

The coaches would be thrilled about how well their ins worked for them. All had stand out games.

In addition to having one of the key rucks back Watts will also benefit hugely from having Hogan back in the side. They work brilliantly together and Hogan takes the best defender.

There is no doubt having to play out of position is taking its toll so a two week break and Hogan and a ruck back in will be terrific for him. It was also mean he spends more time up forward where he is so much more damaging in terms of setting up scoring opportunities. It is remarkable, when you watch any of the weekly 'Haynes paints all the goal video montage' (which i love - i can't watch replays of the games we lose but still watch that video) how often Watts is involved in the scoring chains and how many goals he gives the direct assist for. There were at least three of those on the weekend. Spending more time up forward will mean more assists and more goals from Watts.

[Chris 2,892]

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

What does that mean? Governments don't pax. Full stop.

State governments pay GST to the feds, that is a tax!

[Fat Tony 5,228]

Our game plan was poor in the first quarter given the conditions and our defence pushed way too far up the ground into the wind. The second quarter was disappointing from an execution point of view, with our forwards not converting in front of goals and our gifting up of easy goals. In the third quarter we started to dominated once the wind stopped against an insipid side and it turned into a procession.

While Watts finished the game well, his first half was terrible and he needs to go harder at the contest.

Oscar McDonald has had two terrible weeks and needs to go back to the VFL. He let the ball over the back way too many times.

Hannan continues to show a lot of promise.

Harmes also had a good game.

Other than his awful miss in the first quarter, Neal Bullen played another good game and has really progressed this year.

Jones played a wonderful game and his kicking was a standout.

Lewis was poor until the wind dropped and I wonder if he actually has three years in him.

Pedersen was again very good.

Hibberd was very good again.

Frost was shaky and Tom Lynch had the better of him IMO but did not get enough supply.

Garlett was good, but wasted a few chances and should have kicked 8.

Melksham played a good game and added some balance to our handball happy midfield.

[ManDee 7,134]

38 minutes ago, Chris said:

State governments pay GST to the feds, that is a tax!

Input credits, they would find a way to claim it back.

Edited May 29, 2017 by ManDee

[dino rover 714]

On 27/05/2017 at 10:42 PM, A F said:

Glad to get the win, but someone, I think it was @rjay, asked me last week what Goodwin should have done to change things in the second half when the momentum was clearly going against us. I said I would have put McDonald into the ruck a lot earlier and play Pedo out of the square. Funnily enough, they did this when they should have done it last week, which was half way through the third. Almost immediately, it turned the momentum of the game. Pedo straightened us up, despite being ordinary at ground level, and gave us a target that would take a half decent defender. And McDonald ended up contesting really well in the ruck. This was key to our turnaround. But, gee, we're frustrating to watch. So many of our guys are turnover merchants and poor decision makers. The beauty of our game style is we can pile on the goals like no other and very quickly. Given our emphasis on the contest, when Gawn comes back, we're going to be very hard to stop.

Onto the positives though. Jeffy was terrific for most of the game. Was our only consistent tackler in the last quarter too. Oliver had a great second half, as did Jones. Harmes made a poor decision or two, but for the most part, his hard running and goals were important. 

Back to the negatives. The commentators are raving about Lewis' second half. I thought he was solid in the last term and his first three quarters were terrible. His kicking and decision making has been shocking since his return. Anyway, he was good in the last. Meanwhile, Bugg was has kicked 0.7 in two weeks and must be close to the chop. You can't carry a guy who is playing forward, who can't kick to AFL standard. He's missed so many sitters in the last fortnight. Be interesting to see what we do with him. The plus is he's getting it. Wagner didn't hit a target in the first half, but slowly managed to have a few important marks and link up kicks. I wanted us to take the game on a little more today. Frost barely did. Hunt did a little bit, but not enough. We have to continue to be keen to move the ball quickly, but we also need to use our run where appropriate too and when Frost got tackled early (after a mindbogglingly poor decision), he wasn't confident enough to take the game on again really. 

Although he didn't have a lot of it, Viney led the tackle count again with a game high 11, which became really important to shutting down their ability to move the ball and get separation from the stoppages. Melksham avoided contact twice in the first quarter, but after that (perhaps the coach had a word?), he started to lay tackles, which is unlike him and ended with 5, plus a solid 32 disposal game. His overlap became really significant in the last. Oliver worked his way into the game a little slowly. A few errors have crept into his game in the last fortnight, but he's managed to get to the bye and will have a week to freshen up for the Collingwood match. I thought he could have kicked it a little more often today and he has to know when the overhead handball is on, because it can look sublime, but it could also be costly if he's not careful with it.

If we'd said, once Gawn had gone down, that we'd be 5-5 at the break, after the Freo loss, I probably would have taken it. The biggest positive for us right now is that our percentage is so healthy and should only get better with Gawn's inclusion after the bye. I also give us a chance to come from behind on most occasions now. Whether we win it is another story, but at least we're showing that fight, which is great for a young and developing team.

"The commentators are raving about Lewis' second half. I thought he was solid in the last term and his first three quarters were terrible. His kicking and decision making has been shocking since his return."

I agree. 

dont doubt his leadership but his tackling pressure is weak too.