POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 10

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,833]

Apologies if I'm repeating (I've read some of but not the whole thread).  A few quick observations:

1.  In retrospect, I'm not sure we were playing all that badly in the first half.  We were winning our share of the ball but were slaughtering it in front of goal;

2.  That intercept of Bernie Vince's in the third quarter turned the game some what, as I'm not sure we would have come back from 36 points down;

3.  Jones, Watts and Harmes purple patch mid third quarter was sublime.

[sisso 2,580]

Harmesy loves playing against the Suns, had one of his best game against them last year too

[Skuit 10,031]

8 minutes ago, sisso said:

Harmesy loves playing against the Suns, had one of his best game against them last year too

A Rising Star nominated game. Often think people forget he's also just a kid/there's unfair prejudice based on his draft number. If he continues to clean up his disposal, he has all the other attributes to make it. Did everything yesterday that Kent should be doing.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

WattsTF? Think they may have confused a couple of Hannan's efforts as Jack's

Watts 3rd qtr was awesome which helped turned it for us. 5 marks (couple of which were contested), 7 disposals and score involvements. 2 of Hanan's goals were Joe the goose to be fair.

[Skuit 10,031]

5 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Watts 3rd qtr was awesome which helped turned it for us. 5 marks (couple of which were contested), 7 disposals and score involvements. 2 of Hanan's goals were Joe the goose to be fair.

You felt his performance was on par with Hibberd's?

I should clarify before I get accused of being a Watts-hater (which at times yesterday I really really was). Jacks Watts was a massive factor in us turning the game - Pedo moving forward freed him up to do what he's better at, but what I feel should be basically a pass-mark. Lead up and catch the ball. He was still being beaten in the more areal contests by some guy I had never heard of with 5 games to his name, and some of his efforts earlier were frankly unforgivable. Maybe he has a cold?

Edited May 27, 2017 by Skuit

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

9 minutes ago, Skuit said:

You felt his performance was on par with Hibberd's?

No but, that's how the age voting format works, they distribute 35 votes. Probably should've put Jones a 9 and Watts a 6

Edited May 27, 2017 by At the break of Gawn

[Skuit 10,031]

3 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

No but, that's how the age voting format works, they distribute 35 votes. Probably should've put Jones a 9 and Watts a 6

Probably should have given Oliver a vote. Just had a look at the Demonland votes thread - and for all the vitriol against Watts and then over-protectionism on here, he still failed to register a mention. But I thought Pedersen played well as one of our only players to contest and dispose of it properly in the first half - while he barely rated a mention also. So we all see it differently at times.

[Nasher 33,616]

Jack Viney started the round second on the ladder for tackles, and had another 11 tackles. What a machine.

Unbelievably the leader, Rory Sloane, had 13 to pull further ahead.

[Gator 17,375]

In the cool light of day and once the fury has subsided you take the 4 points and move on.

That said, we're definitely short a quality key defender and a classy midfielder.  We won't take any significant steps without addressing these two issues.

And Watts ?  He was back to his putrid best in the first half and his much better second half showcased that he picks and chooses when to impact contests.  He plays on his own terms.

I'd jettison his arse out of the club at year's if a suitable deal could help address the two above issues.  I know I'm in the 1% that would, so please refrain from quoting this post. 

[Bonkers 994]

13 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

Whoa. Weird being called by my name. Nice to make your acquaintance.

Oscar would get into any list in the comp besides those with a full quota of KP defenders with 50 games under their belts. He's a young key position player playing on a local pitch against KP forwards that are sensational, and were playing well. He's a kid. You have to look at what he can do based on what he's done so far. Not on individual mistakes he makes. People mark him harshly but he's in development still. My only problem with him is that we have 3 of the same kind with Frost and TMac as well, so one will have to make way for the heavy we recruit or develop. Either that or he has to add a string to his bow, as all he does is work inside defensive fifty. Saying he's close to worst in the comp. That's just nonsense. Sorry. I get the frustration with him cos he gets exposed, like all young KP defenders. But fair go, he's nowhere near that bad.

TMac played all day forward or in the ruck. I think he went back for all of 5 minutes. Two weeks ago he went forward and was a huge part of us beating the best team in the comp. People forget quickly. Tom is definitely a good player. Plenty of good players with bad kicking technique.

To each their own though.

At the moment he's just a very bad player. He dropped marks where he was under no pressure that then lead to goals. His disposal is a major liability that also leads to unforgivable turnovers & goals. I struggle to find how any amount of development is going to change him into a reliable player as the basics just aren't there. He's getting gifted games when it should be a privilege to play for the club. If he turns this around all credit to him & the club but I can't see it happening.

[Older demon 2,741]

12 hours ago, jane02 said:

I cannot cope with the doom and gloom around here sometimes. We won - as ugly as the first half was - we won. I will take that any day of the week and I for one are celebrating.

Go Dees.

 

Agree

First quarter into a 3 goal wind we kick 2 and are down by 15 points 

The second quarter start off well and make basic mistakes and turnovers playing dumb, lairising footy. Keep going into the corridor and turning it over and once the ball clears our press it is a GC goal. Poor football, under 18 stuff by a group drinking its own bathwater

Third quarter after 10 minutes the leaders stand up and we play accountable football and get back into the game now the wind has dropped

Fourth quarter complete domination to kick 9 goals 4 over a team that chucked it in.

Give some credit. For years we have watched good first halves and then teams run over us which we have come to expect. Not once this year have we turned it up or thrown in the towel. Yes some players ambitions don't quite match their abilities and there is lots of room for improvement and we still are down on a killer goal to goal line but we are getting better

 

[Nasher 33,616]

5 minutes ago, ProDee said:

And Watts ?  He was back to his putrid best in the first half and his much better second half showcased that he picks and chooses when to impact contests.  He plays on his own terms.

Do you think he actively chooses not to impact contests? That seems to be what you're implying. 

Then again, perhaps it doesn't matter either way whether it's intentional or just a mental habit he can't break - it devalues him either way.

(Yes I know you said not to quote you. Oh well.)

[KingDingAling 3,758]

The Suns looked average. If I were Lynch of May I would be considering my options. I can't see that lot challenging for a flag anytime soon. Once Ablett jr leaves the club then they are going to have to completely reset. I'm not sure they should of gotten Hanley either. He doesn't add much, and they are going to have to unearth some young talent. They have either wasted a lot - either left or not progressed. Although we didn't play our best football yesterday, we still looked a class above them in second gear most the game.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

6 minutes ago, Older demon said:

Agree

First quarter into a 3 goal wind we kick 2 and are down by 15 points 

The second quarter start off well and make basic mistakes and turnovers playing dumb, lairising footy. Keep going into the corridor and turning it over and once the ball clears our press it is a GC goal. Poor football, under 18 stuff by a group drinking its own bathwater

Third quarter after 10 minutes the leaders stand up and we play accountable football and get back into the game now the wind has dropped

Fourth quarter complete domination to kick 9 goals 4 over a team that chucked it in.

Give some credit. For years we have watched good first halves and then teams run over us which we have come to expect. Not once this year have we turned it up or thrown in the towel. Yes some players ambitions don't quite match their abilities and there is lots of room for improvement and we still are down on a killer goal to goal line but we are getting better

 

The post hoc analysis by some shits me to tears... and @Older demon this is not about you, its about the simplistic way people try to make sense of things. None of the players out there 'drink their own bath water'...and its exactly the same issue in qrt2 that becomes the launching pad to win the game (going into the corridor). No player aims to eff a disposal up, yet it happens... thank god they continued to do what they did in qrt2 and the pay off came for the rest of the game.

Maybe its a generational thing (older demon (hell, you could be 20 for all I know) but to fall back into - them being lazy, arrogant, not hungry enough, chose when to play, to make sense of not performing well is at best naive and at worst ignorant at how people behave in contexts of high stress and scruitiny.

[loges 6,767]

9 hours ago, Win4theages said:

There is definitely a disturbing pattern to our play, any other team bar Bris would have put us away today. That 1st Half was like grating your penis extremely painful. Not that I would know anything about it sounds awful but that's what it felt like watching that crap.

But no team has managed to put us away !

[picket fence 17,172]

14 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

Tom Bugg  0 goals 7 behinds the last 2 games

Surely Stretch or Kennedy better options?

[picket fence 17,172]

9 hours ago, Skuit said:

The FD undoubtedly rate him but I personally can't see it. Even with all the caveats of KPD's taking time to develop.

a) seems to have a problem with his depth perception. You don't often see players completely miss the ball when going for marks and spoils. He does this frequently.

b) he suffers from the same fundamental disposal issue as Tom. It's not just the obvious howlers, but an inability to correctly judge the path of a moving player. They both compensate by putting the ball vaguely into space for a runner, so it won't show up in the D/E, but it slows down our switch when a player has to collect and often puts that player and the next under unnecessary pressure.

c) slow decision-maker (and today was very slow to move the ball - which should put an extra question mark over a spot in Goodwin's defence. We may as well have Dunn still). The slow decision-making may be a developmental thing, but he just doesn't strike as an instinctive footballer (nor an aggressive one). Slow decisions lead to bad decisions.

d) not particularly fast or evasive.  

Issues with body-strength I would be willing to give him time, but apparently he already weighs nearly 100kg, so I would say that he might just not have the frame.

He might be doing all the right things for the coaching department, but I question his physical ceiling to ever really make it as a KPD, or his ability in the long-term then to provide the alternative characteristics we seek in our defensive set-up.

There's a reason for all this Skuit........... The boy just cannot play at this level, a country footballer at best!

[Gator 17,375]

7 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Do you think he actively chooses not to impact contests? That seems to be what you're implying. 

Then again, perhaps it doesn't matter either way whether it's intentional or just a mental habit he can't break - it devalues him either way.

(Yes I know you said not to quote you. Oh well.)

I believe he's not always mentally hungry or switched on for the contest.  His arousal levels have far too may peaks and troughs.

I reckon Goodwin lit a firecracker up his backside at half-time, which led to a different mindset.  

We're all wired differently and for me Watts isn't always mentally engaged from the outset.

I question how important winning and succeeding is for him.

Note: no further correspondence re Watts will be entered into. 

[sue 9,107]

3 hours ago, pitmaster said:

Thirty points down and I was ready to give up on them but it's simply wrong to say we were lousy for the entire first half. The commentary made it clear that our effort into the wind in the first quarter was pretty good and that the Suns were not far enough in front.

Inaccuracy burned us when we had the wind in the second, so skills and finishing (and lack of forward structure) cost us, but we were in the contest. 

In the end Jones, Garlett and Hibbered really shaped this win and maybe we should just enjoy the fact we've found some who can hit the scoreboard in Hogan's absence.

In short: whingers, get over it.

During the actual match I despaired like many on here, but on reflection I think pitmaster has it right.  A lot was to do with the score.  I suspect a lot of the bad play would have been overlooked (and may have evaporated with growing confidence) if we didn't miss goals in Q2.

[sue 9,107]

3 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Note: no further correspondence re Watts will be entered into. 

Best thing I've read all day. If only.

[Stingray 157]

Olivers handballing was super human at times yesterday, haven't read this entire thread but haven't seen his name pop up much. I know it's expected of him now as he's been doing it all year - but some of his disposals out of a scrappy congested centre were simply amazing and set us up on many occasions. N Jones as well - what a legend! First half couldn't have been more painful to watch, 2nd half was cracking. Happy to take the win have a rest for a week (hopefully watch the hawks best port next week....) and watch our run into the finals! Go d's.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

I know some people don't want to hear it, but that game was a sign of our improving maturity

With something to prove -- that we can start the game in 4th gear and not 1st -- we flunked and put in an ordinary 1st quarter and a diabolical 2nd. (I thought the players were trying "too hard" to cope with the wind, both against and with.)

But we didn't panic or throw in the towel.

Even though at half time you could see on the players faces, WTF is gong on??? And the Suns were feeding on confidence.

The players were rattled but Goodwin settled them down and got their minds back on the job. Big tick for Goodwin.

3, 4 years ago the disaster would have continued throughout the second half and it would have been minimum 10 goal reaming.

This season more than ever, it's about what's between the ears.

Just another turning point in our long succession of turning points!

(We're taking this season one turning point at a time.)

 

Hannan has X factor, knows where to go, what to do.

Harmes: rough around the edges but puts in all the time. Rather than than ANB / Bugg who are so iffy. Having said that, prefer Bugg by a mile as he shows game sense even if his finishing the last two weeks has been too bad to believe. Whereas I can't see any hurt factor in ANB.

Pedo another blue collar player. not prominent this time but you know what you're going to get, and that's grunt for 4 quarters, and not much stuffing up.

Some players looked like they are not well. Carrying something. Flu or niggling injury. Watts. Tracc. Lewis. (Oscar, or is he just terrible.)

Oscar has got to the point that Weideman did weeks ago ... the balance between getting an education and being ineffective has tipped, and he's not going to learn anything more in the seniors until he goes back to the VFL and consolidates what he has learned. His time may come. People say we're missing Gawn & Hogan, and we are, but we are also missing Garland and (dare I say) the Smiths.

 

[Gator 17,375]

1 minute ago, Stingray said:

Olivers handballing was super human at times yesterday, haven't read this entire thread but haven't seen his name pop up much. I know it's expected of him now as he's been doing it all year - but some of his disposals out of a scrappy congested centre were simply amazing and set us up on many occasions. N Jones as well - what a legend! First half couldn't have been more painful to watch, 2nd half was cracking. Happy to take the win have a rest for a week (hopefully watch the hawks best port next week....) and watch our run into the finals! Go d's.

Yep.

And he's the only ball magnet I've seen at the club since Greg Wells (Brian Wilson had one year).  I've spent years wanting players that have the skill of actually getting their hands on the footy.

We've uncovered one of the best.  A ball magnet at last.  The first in 40 years.

[Redleg 40,937]

15 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Well put. You have become close to my fave poster. Always balanced and eloquent. Kudos. 

But I am still your favourite?

[Deemented Are Go! 3,680]

3 hours ago, jacey said:

Agree with all points but this is key. How many times does he try to effect a contest, miss the ball and it goes out the back for a goal. Defending 101

Teams are trying to isolate Oscar. There is a reason why.

His offense is just as bad also. Sure kpp take time but they need to show some attribute that is good/elite in the meantime while his body develops.

IE speed for kpp, judging the ball/interception, decision making, footskills, contested marking, competitiveness.

What signs, attributes do ppl see that makes them confident he'll get there?

"Can you count, suckers?"