Changes vs Hawthorn

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

13 hours ago, BarnDee said:

did you see the clanger ladder today ? on top is p dangerfield with 34  followed by d martin on 33  tyson is equal on 28 with fyfe 

Honestly.

People will throw the most basic of logic out the window in order to try and back up a point. Tyson has played less games and has therefore had nowhere near the disposals that those three stars of the game have had. Yet he still sits equal third? This clearly means that Tyson is making far more mistakes per match than those three genuine match winners.

I don't wish to be labelled a Tyson a hater. Because I don't hate him. 

What I value on a football field is meaningful disposals, possessions and play. If supporters haven't noticed, Melbourne sit on top of the disposal count ladder. Yet we're sitting 3-3 and 8th on the ladder. If disposal counts were as important as so many seem to believe they are, why are we not on top of the ladder? 

The way supporters go on about Dom's disposal count is as embarrassing as me saying that we are the best team because we average the most disposals a game. 

This year, we have opted for a high possession game and it's plainly obvious that we overpossess and are also wildly inefficient with many entries going inside 50.

Given this, a single player gathering 29 touches in a game doesn't necessarily excite me. It's what they do with those possessions as well as how they're gathered that is of interest. Dom is an inside ball winner yet he had 5 contested possessions on the weekend. He had 2 tackles and 11 turnovers. 11! Viney, Oliver and Jones had 8 turnovers between them. He had 9 inside 50's. Is that good? Well, given his disposal efficiency was below 70% they can't have been that good. And watching the replay I can tell you that they weren't.

I don't need to look at these stats to back up what I'm seeing. All I care about is the effectiveness and meaningfulness of disposals and possessions.

And in my view, Dom is the least damaging and least pressure providing mid that we're carrying at present. And as I said with Oscar, if this continues, he'll be back at Casey in no time.

Edited May 1, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[leave it to deever 17,511]

Probably no room for at the present and despite the bag of goals he licked last week would anyone else like to see Trac in the middle for a quarter or 2?

[Go the Biff 3,423]

11 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Probably no room for at the present and despite the bag of goals he licked last week would anyone else like to see Trac in the middle for a quarter or 2?

That was the plan for Richmond (refer to Goodwin's presser) but he copped that whack on the knee inside the first 5 minutes of the game. Doubt he was 100% on the weekend so midfield minutes will depend on when he is fully fit

[leave it to deever 17,511]

Just now, Go the Biff said:

That was the plan for Richmond (refer to Goodwin's presser) but he copped that whack on the knee inside the first 5 minutes of the game. Doubt he was 100% on the weekend so midfield minutes will depend on when he is fully fit

Cool...will be worth the wait when it happens. Got a feeling this guy destined for footy greatness.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

5 hours ago, Abe said:

if you are relying on the herald suns stats to build your point around it I don't think anyone is going to take it seriously. 

Mark robinson is their Chief footy writer ffs 

He doesn't provide the stats, besides which nobody gets taken seriously on here

So you don't agree with the 24 pressure acts from ANB and JKH then I take it unless I provide a reliable source, maybe somebody in the crowd with a few beers in them then?

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Honestly.

People will throw the most basic of logic out the window in order to try and back up a point.

Can you explain the two coaches votes please Steve, unless of course you've thrown them out the window.

12 hours ago, Deestroy All said:

I doubt it. You'd have to be pretty stubborn, I'm stubborn and he broke me.

You're not as strong as Pro......

[monoccular 17,429]

13 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I wouldn't mind knowing what JKH's role is, monoccular. I am not saying that to be cute or sarcastic either. I am open minded on selections and if I get a legitimate reason as to what he is in there for, I would be all for it.

Is it tackling and defensive pressure? I saw Jeffy do more of that than JKH on the weekend. If it is clean finishing, then I can't see him making the grade on that one.

It wasn't my call; just quoting the coach

[beelzebub 23,376]

32 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

He doesn't provide the stats, besides which nobody gets taken seriously on here

So you don't agree with the 24 pressure acts from ANB and JKH then I take it unless I provide a reliable source, maybe somebody in the crowd with a few beers in them then?

Honestly...wtf is a pressure act ?

Absolute mumbo jumbo bs.

This highlights a big ( for mine ) problem with footy today. This incessant breakdown into non meaningful elements. 

So much abouts stats are farcical in so much as the metric has either become subjective and therefore non transferable, nor truly comparable or they are half stats. By this i sggest a disposal is actually not effective if it doesnt actually benefit the play ( as opposed left one player and simply got to another, or simply disposed of without penalty. These only half tell a story.

So ...a pressure act ?

If its about an intent...and not a result....a player might as well be just sneering as his opponent for all the good it will do ?

A pressure act ...is that like half a tackle ?  Is it like trying to corral a player but not really ?

Like contesting a mark but completely in wrong spot...but cobtested !! Sorta not quite.

What defines a successful pressure act from a nearly/not-quite ?

I'll tell you one pressure act JKH cant do currently...thats Scoeboard Pressure. Now that you CAN measure very clearly !!

[old55 23,576]

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Honestly...wtf is a pressure act ?

Absolute mumbo jumbo bs.

This highlights a big ( for mine ) problem with footy today. This incessant breakdown into non meaningful elements. 

 

 

[beelzebub 23,376]

2 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

 

Theyre just justifying a commercial position. 

Much of footy..any sport is instinct built upon skills. 

The minutae is just that, almost a meaningless nothing. Only when anything is given structure, context, increased fabric that any shape or quality builds. In reality it's effectively the blindingly obvious that have any meaningful substance.

Statisticians  love to talk about their product. Theyve conned whole industries, sport being one. 

The problem with trying to apply this sort of science is that the game is essentially chaos theory with an oval ball. Practically nothing is an isolated event. The data treats it as though there were.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

42 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Can you explain the two coaches votes please Steve, unless of course you've thrown them out the window.

 

No I can't explain them. 

But then again, I can't explain why Hurley got equal most with Oliver. 

Do you have an opinion? Or prefer to throw in with whatever the coaches say?

 

[old55 23,576]

6 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Theyre just justifying a commercial position. 

Much of footy..any sport is instinct built upon skills. 

The minutae is just that, almost a meaningless nothing. Only when anything is given structure, context, increased fabric that any shape or quality builds. In reality it's effectively the blindingly obvious that have any meaningful substance.

Statisticians  love to talk about their product. Theyve conned whole industries, sport being one. 

The problem with trying to apply this sort of science is that the game is essentially chaos theory with an oval ball. Practically nothing is an isolated event. The data treats it as though there were.

The video said that they implemented the pressure acts data collecting and analysis at the request of the coaches and FDs,

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

23 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Honestly...wtf is a pressure act ?

A pressure act ...is that like half a tackle ?  Is it like trying to corral a player but not really ?

They are two examples.  I don't know how statisticians measure it but it also includes: smother, spoil, ground ball contest, shepherd, chase and others I can't think of right now.

bb I think it is a legit basis to measure a player's contribution.  How often do we hear a coach say: "its what you do when you don't have the ball that counts".  Well, when a player doesn't have the ball his only arsenal is 'pressure acts'. 

Obviously, different players have different primary roles in teams.  Early, last year I heard Kent say his job in the team was forward 'pressure acts'.  I suspect the likes of ANB, Bugg and JKH have similar jobs.  Don't get me wrong all players must have a defensive side especially in the forward line but more of that is expected of those given that specific role.  So if these guys don't kick any goals or have many possessions but have a high rating for the 'pressure acts' Goodwin and co value, they will be first picked simply because they are doing what is asked of them. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

On 2017-4-30 at 9:48 PM, Demons11 said:

I would hate to see if you didn't like a settled line up.  

ANB stays for me. 

Less a reflection on the current side, more a reflection of the fact we have guys banging the door down, and guys who need to be selected. Like Hogan, Kent, Wagner...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big ANB fan. But sometimes when there's selection dilemmas, good games can be overlooked for a recent bad one. Has been good though. I'm interested to see where Goody uses him matchup wise for the whole year. I think that'll define where he's picked, more than form. For example round 1 he was a defensive forward to deal with Saints rebound. Biggest concern for him also is he's undersized. Walked past him at the spreadie in Richmond with his folks, and he is tiny (actually whole family is). It'll be interesting going forward what he ends up becoming.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

25 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

They are two examples.  I don't know how statisticians measure it but it also includes: smother, spoil, ground ball contest, shepherd, chase and others I can't think of right now.

bb I think it is a legit basis to measure a player's contribution.  How often do we hear a coach say: "its what you do when you don't have the ball that counts".  Well, when a player doesn't have the ball his only arsenal is 'pressure acts'. 

Obviously, different players have different primary roles in teams.  Early, last year I heard Kent say his job in the team was forward 'pressure acts'.  I suspect the likes of ANB, Bugg and JKH have similar jobs.  Don't get me wrong all players must have a defensive side especially in the forward line but more of that is expected of those given that specific role.  So if these guys don't kick any goals or have many possessions but have a high rating for the 'pressure acts' Goodwin and co value, they will be first picked simply because they are doing what is asked of them. 

A smother, spoil, shepherd etc is a "one percenter" and not a pressure act.

A pressure act is corralling, chasing, closing and physical pressure. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Ethan Tremblay

[beelzebub 23,376]

LH.. thankyou 

I still question the validity of these 'acts' stats. Feel more informed for your effort.

[Diamond_Jim 12,588]

The other night on SEN I heard a player mentioning something I think was called the smash factor measurement or similar.

It measured the cumulative  impacts on a player's body both by other players and from hitting the ground. Has anyone else heard of this and other "unusual" bio metric measures?

On a separate note it seems that the shepherd has almost gone out of the game with the free player being encouraged to distance himself from the ball carrier and thus act as a receiver,

Edited May 2, 2017 by Diamond_Jim

[#11-TonyAnderson 774]

I'd simply like to see JKH mark the ball, dispose of it cleanly to our player(s) and kick goals more frequently.

[old55 23,576]

16 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

LH.. thankyou 

I still question the validity of these 'acts' stats. Feel more informed for your effort.

Look at 4:15 in the video I pasted in for your education.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Fifty-5

[daisycutter 29,616]

1 minute ago, #11-TonyAnderson said:

I'd simply like to see JKH mark the ball, dispose of it cleanly to our player(s) and kick goals more frequently.

and not look so undecided. needs to be more positive and switched on when he has the pill

[Cards13 9,117]

8 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

The other night on SEN I heard a player mentioning something I think was called the smash factor measurement or similar.

It measured the cumulative  impacts on a player's body both by other players and from hitting the ground. Has anyone else heard of this and other "unusual" bio metric measures?

On a separate note it seems that the shepherd has almost gone out of the game with the free player being encouraged to distance himself from the ball carrier and thus act as a receiver,

The number of times this happened on the weekend by our players did this when it looked like a shepherd would have given the ball carrier room to get a possession away was frustrating. The worst part of it is when the guy who should be laying the shepherd has given a dinky little handball to a flat footed team mate with no space to move then spread away from him.

The other one I have noticed over the last couple of seasons from our side is everyone up into a marking or spoiling contest, no one down. No one talking to other to go whilst they stay down. The obvious example was Tmac spoiling a sure Jetta mark but happens often.

[Demons11 7,014]

Anyone been down training?  Has Hogan been spotted?

[beelzebub 23,376]

10 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Look at 4:15 in the video I pasted in for your education.

I have. I' m cognisent of your point. It came from clubs. Im surprised they dont use eyes.

My opinion..and its mine granted is most of these stats are just bogus bullshlt.

All of this is most suited  ( even alluded ) to the realms of fantasy footy etc. Probably where they should be left.

[JV7 2,351]

I re-watched the 2nd half last night & ANB was better in the 2nd half then I thought being at the ground. He had a hand in a couple of goals & made some smart decisions like that chip back to Hannan (could have blazed away) if it comes down to one of ANB or JKH to make way it has to be JKH.. I am even more dubious on his spot in the side then before I watched the replay...

[Redleg 40,925]

30 minutes ago, #11-TonyAnderson said:

I'd simply like to see JKH mark the ball, dispose of it cleanly to our player(s) and kick goals more frequently.

What game is that?